touching the void

aj said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not been
in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

Agreed!

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Quoted message said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not been
in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

--
Boo

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:00:35 +0100, Boo <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not been
in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

Well me too, but I didn't like to say so....

<ahem....>

:-)

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

aj said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not been
in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

Great film, good to see after reading the book years ago. It was loaned
to me by a nutter mountaineer friend who had all but bought it in the
Alps that year, broke his back and was in a neck brace for 3 months.
A year after his accident, after recuperating, he did the BGR.

Humbling.

aj said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not been
in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

Rheged's great, went to the Everest expedition (sic) exhibition there in
Sep whilst on a Lakes trip. How about the frost-bitten toes! Yeeewwww....

And anybody who would have tried to do anything but cut in the same position
would be dead. Joe could not climb up the rope. There strength would
eventually given out or they would have slipped from there position. Both
would have fallen and this time maybe Joe falling in a slightly different
position would have not caught the ledge. Therefore both would be dead end
of story.

So what was the best course of action. Hmmm cut the rope.

Sie

"aj" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not

been

Quoted message said:

in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

Sie <siejones@freeuk_nocrap_.com> wrote

Quoted message said:

And anybody who would have tried to do anything but cut in the same position
would be dead. Joe could not climb up the rope. There strength would
eventually given out or they would have slipped from there position. Both
would have fallen and this time maybe Joe falling in a slightly different
position would have not caught the ledge. Therefore both would be dead end
of story.

So what was the best course of action. Hmmm cut the rope.

Sie

I thought that both men had agreed that, and that Joe said he would have
done the same thing, but it is clear from the DVD and especially from
the comments of the third member who looked after base camp that they
were two quite different personalities, with different attitudes to some
aspects of the climb, disregarding the accident.

In fact, their differing comments on the same scenarios added
considerably to my enjoyment of the film.
There was a contrast of overstatement/understatement which amused me.

I would have to re-run it to get the exact phrases, but it was something
like:

Joe: "This section was proving more difficult than I had anticipated".

Simon: "I thought: For Christ sake don't fall off HERE, Joe"!
--
Gordon

Sie said:

"aj" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not

been

Quoted message said:

in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

Quoted message said:

And anybody who would have tried to do anything but cut in the same position
would be dead. Joe could not climb up the rope. There strength would
eventually given out or they would have slipped from there position. Both
would have fallen and this time maybe Joe falling in a slightly different
position would have not caught the ledge. Therefore both would be dead end
of story.

So what was the best course of action. Hmmm cut the rope.

Note also that Simon was sitting in a bucket stance in unstable snow
which was slowly collapsing under their combined weight. He'd been
there some time before remembering the penknife in the rucksack
pocket.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Boo boo@spam_me_no_spam.net said:

Quoted message said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not been
in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

Quoted message said:

I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

But very few people, including fit climbers, have the upper body
strength to be able to do that in those conditions after what they'd
been through. In fact not many have the strength to be able to do it
arm-over-arm on a fine summer's day after a good breakfast -- they
have to do such hauling using back and legs, with arms simply
controlling rope feed and lock. Which is only possible when you have a
stance which supports such leg & back work. Which Yates didn't.

Of course there are some climbers of quite exceptional strength. I was
once chosen, because I was the lightest guy in the place, to be held
under one arm while the prodigiously muscled Robin Smith put his other
hand over a rafter beam and did a one arm pull up, carrying me.

Just out of curiosity, what weight of climber can you haul up
arm-over-arm on a climbing rope?

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Chris Malcolm <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Boo boo@spam_me_no_spam.net said:

Quoted message said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not been
in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

Quoted message said:

I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

But very few people, including fit climbers, have the upper body
strength to be able to do that in those conditions after what they'd
been through.

Didn't Spencer Tracy do just that in "The White Tower"?
....and that was after he'd had the rope run through his hands long
enough to wear away his gloves and draw blood from his hands!
:-)
--
Gordon

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

....

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity, what weight of climber can you haul up
arm-over-arm on a climbing rope?

Erm, I think you need one of these : :-)

;-)

--
Boo

Boo <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

...

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity, what weight of climber can you haul up
arm-over-arm on a climbing rope?

Erm, I think you need one of these : :-)

;-)

You'd need several of those - :-) or these - :->> to make a good
enough belay, and a block and tackle. I tried to draw one, but . . .
--
Gordon

Gordon said:

Boo <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

...

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity, what weight of climber can you haul up
arm-over-arm on a climbing rope?

Erm, I think you need one of these : :-)

;-)

You'd need several of those - :-) or these - :->> to make a good
enough belay, and a block and tackle. I tried to draw one, but . . .

I can do a simple pulley :-)

0
| \
| \
| pull here
|
|
|
|o
<|>
/\
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Phil Cook <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Gordon said:

Boo <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net> wrote

Quoted message said:

>>I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.
>
...

>
> Just out of curiosity, what weight of climber can you haul up
> arm-over-arm on a climbing rope?

Erm, I think you need one of these : :-)

;-)

You'd need several of those - :-) or these - :->> to make a good
enough belay, and a block and tackle. I tried to draw one, but . . .

I can do a simple pulley :-)

0
| \
| \
| pull here
|
|
|
|o
<|>
/\

That's no good, you're most likely heavier than me.
--
Gordon

aj said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates introduced
it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope but
there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not been
in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

There seems to be much talk of a so-called climber's code, which says you
don't cut your mate off. However I can't find many documented instances of
people on the top rope willingly throwing themselves off mountains to die
with their partners...

From what I remember, Simon did try to pull Joe up but was physically unable
to. He wasn't exactly secured himself. By the time he did sever the rope,
he was on the point of sliding off, and was convinced Joe was already dead.

One of those rare films where everyone sat in silence in the cinema as the
credits rolled on.

--
A little inaccuracy saves a lot of explanation.

Mail john rather than nospam...

The message <[email hidden]>
from John Laird <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

There seems to be much talk of a so-called climber's code, which says you
don't cut your mate off. However I can't find many documented instances of
people on the top rope willingly throwing themselves off mountains to die
with their partners...

But did you find any other instances of climbers cutting still living
climbing partners ropes so that they could survive while their partner
did not?

And, Everest apart, any tales of guides abandoning their clients to save
their own skins?

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 69 summits
New - 47 (Marilyns 13, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 35)
Repeats - 22( Marilyns 7, Sweats 16, Wainwrights 16)

Hmmm don't want to argue on this but Simon did not know whether Joe was
alive or not. He spent a long period of time risking his own life holding
onto what for all he knew was a hanging corpse.

Why the relation to a guide? He was of equal ability to Joe and therefore
they were just as responsible for each other. It wasn't like he was baby
sitting.

Come on read the book/watch the film as get facts right before instantly
making a judgement! Cut the rope....ahhhhhh....against climbers
code.....don't investigate the circumstances.....accuse!

Sie

"Roger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from John Laird <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

There seems to be much talk of a so-called climber's code, which says

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't cut your mate off. However I can't find many documented instances

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people on the top rope willingly throwing themselves off mountains to

die

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with their partners...

But did you find any other instances of climbers cutting still living
climbing partners ropes so that they could survive while their partner
did not?

And, Everest apart, any tales of guides abandoning their clients to save
their own skins?

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 69 summits
New - 47 (Marilyns 13, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 35)
Repeats - 22( Marilyns 7, Sweats 16, Wainwrights 16)

John Laird <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

One of those rare films where everyone sat in silence in the cinema as the
credits rolled on.

It just *seemed* quiet after those drums, and the deafening crunching of
the ice climb. It could have caused an avalanche....

I have watched it at home several times, with different friends, and I
play the sound through the Hi Fi. It's brilliant. :-)
--
Gordon

Roger <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from John Laird <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

There seems to be much talk of a so-called climber's code, which says
you don't cut your mate off. However I can't find many documented
instances of people on the top rope willingly throwing themselves off
mountains to die with their partners...

But did you find any other instances of climbers cutting still living
climbing partners ropes so that they could survive while their partner
did not?

He took the unenviable view that both would have died if he left it any
longer. He was barely able to hold the rope at that point anyway.

Quoted message said:

And, Everest apart, any tales of guides abandoning their clients to
save their own skins?

Not a fair comparison as both were experts. The Everest example is
more questionnable but I don't feel qualified to judge what other people
do is right or wrong especially at that altitude and exposure.

Regarding other examples, I note that the two you have given are both
British climbers. Other examples probably do exist but you'll have
to find them elsewhere in the world.

--
Adrian