To peak or not to peak

[daveryanwyoming]

42 d time constant = 1/2 life of ~29 d = ~3 mo to get 87.5% of the way there, ~4 mo to get 92.25% of the way there, ~5 mo to get 96.125% of the way there, etc....

Yeah, dang exponential curves. Ya never quite get there....

Duly busted on taking a simplistic block averaging view.

Still it really drives home the point that you've got to hold an average daily TSS well above your CTL goals for quite a while to achieve those goals.

-Dave

 

[acoggan]

Duly busted on taking a simplistic block averaging view.

Nothing wrong with that, at least as long as you pick the right length for each 'block'.

A bit more seriously: since three half-lives gets you almost 90% of the way to a plateau, I like to think of CTL as primarily reflecting what you've done in the last ~3 mo, and ATL as primarily reflecting what you've done in the past ~2 wk (since time constant of 7 d = half-life of ~5 d, and three half-lives = 15 d).

 

[JustCurious]

42 d time constant = 1/2 life of ~29 d = ~3 mo to get 87.5% of the way there, ~4 mo to get 92.25% of the way there, ~5 mo to get 96.125% of the way there, etc.

Not that this is news to you...but I thought it might be helpful for others.

It may be just me, but it sure seems to drop a lot faster than it rises.

 

[Porkyboy]

at 50 CTL, to lift it 4 points you need a week of ~ 525 TSS
at 100 CTL, to lift it 4 points you need a week of ~ 875 TSS.

Hi

Me again, sorry to go on about this but how does this get worked out? I'd like to know how to work out what TSS to aim for in say my next week of training to raise my current CTL by say 3 points. Never was any good at sums

I'm sure it will all make sense whan I've been at it 3 or 4 years!

Thanks.

PB

 

[Steve_B]

I've been using double indoor workouts a few days a week to hold my weekly TSS in the 600-700 range. It's a lot of time on an indoor trainer.

Niiiice, Dave. How long do you think you can keep that up? How long do you need to keep that up?

My >120 TSS sessions this month have been with skate skis attached to my feet. We just got a further 20 cm of snow last night too. But, I'm only doing 450-550/week this month.

 

[rmur17]

Nothing wrong with that, at least as long as you pick the right length for each 'block'.

A bit more seriously: since three half-lives gets you almost 90% of the way to a plateau, I like to think of CTL as primarily reflecting what you've done in the last ~3 mo, and ATL as primarily reflecting what you've done in the past ~2 wk (since time constant of 7 d = half-life of ~5 d, and three half-lives = 15 d).

dumbass eng. rule-of-thumb is: three time-constants and "you're there".

So six times three = eighteen weeks or roughly four months.

In any case it DOES seem to go down bloody fast and ascend frightfully slowly. Something about Murphy's Law there I guess ...

 

[frenchyge]

Me again, sorry to go on about this but how does this get worked out? I'd like to know how to work out what TSS to aim for in say my next week of training to raise my current CTL by say 3 points. Never was any good at sums

If you use the default CTL time constants of 42d, then use the following guidelines:

Daily average TSS goal = Current CTL + (6 x desired weekly ramp rate)

Example: if current CTL is 50 and you desire a 5 pts/wk ramp in CTL, your daily average TSS should be 50 + (6 x 5 pts/wk), or 80 TSS/day. So, if you accomplish 560 TSS this week then your CTL will be pretty close to 55 by this time next week.

Hope that helps.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Niiiice, Dave. How long do you think you can keep that up?..

Hopefully till March or April when things warm up enough to ride outdoors. Last winter was easier as my CTL was lower but I'd like to hit the early races with a bit more in the bank next season. The big challenge is getting up before sunrise for prework trainer sessions on the days when I do doubles. I'm about 8 weeks into this routine and it's been o.k. so far but I'm sure it will get real old before spring rolls around.

Like you I'll be ski skating soon. The snow is finally here and things are good up high but still pretty thin on the valley nordic trails so there's no grooming yet. That should change in the next week or so. Even then I'll want to get a lot of my aerobic training on the bike but a few skate sessions a week should help stave off burnout.

-Dave

 

[Animator]

Hopefully till March or April when things warm up enough to ride outdoors. Last winter was easier as my CTL was lower but I'd like to hit the early races with a bit more in the bank next season. The big challenge is getting up before sunrise for prework trainer sessions on the days when I do doubles. I'm about 8 weeks into this routine and it's been o.k. so far but I'm sure it will get real old before spring rolls around.

I'm amazed you can do that for even one week! I can't do that for even one day. Good job. I'm more or less resigned to losing fitness whenever I can't ride outside at least once or twice a week (my current predicament).

As far as xc skiing goes: does skating benefit a cyclist more than traditional (my apologies to the non-skiers reading this).

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I'm amazed you can do that for even one week! I can't do that for even one day. ...

The key for me is to have focused goals every time I get on the trainer. I'll get bored in 10 minutes if I just try to "get some miles". The power meter helps tremendously here. It keeps me focused and gives me real time objective feedback on improvement that keeps me coming back. I did nearly 7 months on the trainer last winter and hit spring psyched to ride. And FWIW I hated trainers for many years, last year was a real break through in that department and the PM was a big part of that change of attitude.

...As far as xc skiing goes: does skating benefit a cyclist more than traditional (my apologies to the non-skiers reading this).

Classic skiing(traditional XC) if done well is a fantastic workout. Trouble is, many folks never get past the shuffling stage and aren't so much skiing on their classic gear as walking on their skis. Skating has a very steep, but very quick learning curve. You either start to get it and move at a solid aerobic pace or you don't move at all.

I've taught and coached both for a lot of years and in the ski racing world most coaches have athletes work on both their classic and skate skiing even if they specialize in skating for their events. Done correctly classic skiing is tougher for most folks to master and it's techniques are more subtle. If you decide to do either, take some good lessons. I've worked with a lot of skiiers in both disciplines that skipped that stage and got real frustrated that they couldn't seem to get it. A few good lessons can really make all the difference.

The skating motion looks so easy that folks miss many things related to flat skis, weight transfer, poling motions, timing, etc. I taught a skate series to members of a local hockey team a few years back. These folks could obviously "skate" real well but were clueless in terms of ski skating. A few lessons and some directed feedback made a huge difference, got them out of the back seat, gliding on flatter skis and using a variety of poling strokes to handle varied terrain.

Both are great activities, but both are cross training relative to cycling and there's debate in terms of how much crossover benefit you get from any form of cross training. Common concensus is that crosstraining is most beneficial to less trained athletes and becomes less beneficial with increased fitness and specificity. I love nordic skiing and do a few ski marathons every year but I'm focused on improving my cycling these days so indoor bike training will still be my main focus this winter. I'll ski a few days a week if the weather cooperates and use the skiing for longer days but it won't be my primary aerobic work this winter.

I'll also get into the backcountry and do a bit of lift skiing but I look at that as fun and not necessarily training. I'm sure someone could argue the crossover benefit of knockin' out telemark turns in bumps but I'm not going to try to estimate the TSS resulting from a day like that. I know it will sap some energy so I won't be looking to set records after a day of lift skiing or a backcountry tour but I won't count on it doing much for my FTP either.

-Dave

 

[Animator]

The key for me is to have focused goals every time I get on the trainer. I'll get bored in 10 minutes if I just try to "get some miles". The power meter helps tremendously here.

My use of one helps too, but not so much that I can do 700+ TSS/week indoors. Perhaps I should start another thread on this subject...

 

[postal_bag]

My use of one helps too, but not so much that I can do 700+ TSS/week indoors. Perhaps I should start another thread on this subject...

I rode 5 days this week, all indoors, and my total TSS was 688. This is with 8 hrs of riding including warmup/cooldown. I actually had to cut a workout short on Wednesday (TSS of just 77 for that day) due to some ankle pain/tendonitis, from a work related injury. Today I was back on track with my "patented" 5 x 30' workout which racked up a TSS of 218.

The week looks like this: (I include warmup/cooldown in ride time & IF)

Sun-2:40, IF 0.80, TSS 170
Tue-1:30, IF 0.88, TSS 115
Wed-1:07, IF 0.83, TSS 77
Thu-1:40, IF 0.80, TSS 108
Sat-3:10, IF 0.83, TSS 218

The rides are mostly comprised of blocks of 20-30 minutes at various SST intensities. I may try 2 hrs at ~75% for one of my midweek rides which will give me a break, but still provide a TSS of 112.

I figure I can squeeze another ~150 TSS out of the week as I extend up toward my 10 hr limit.

 

[Porkyboy]

If you use the default CTL time constants of 42d, then use the following guidelines:

Daily average TSS goal = Current CTL + (6 x desired weekly ramp rate)

Example: if current CTL is 50 and you desire a 5 pts/wk ramp in CTL, your daily average TSS should be 50 + (6 x 5 pts/wk), or 80 TSS/day. So, if you accomplish 560 TSS this week then your CTL will be pretty close to 55 by this time next week.

Hope that helps.

Thank you, very helpful indeed, no idea how that works but if it does that's great!

PB

 

[postal_bag]

I rode 5 days this week, all indoors, and my total TSS was 688. This is with 8 hrs of riding including warmup/cooldown. I actually had to cut a workout short on Wednesday (TSS of just 77 for that day) due to some ankle pain/tendonitis, from a work related injury. Today I was back on track with my "patented" 5 x 30' workout which racked up a TSS of 218.

The week looks like this: (I include warmup/cooldown in ride time & IF)

Sun-2:40, IF 0.80, TSS 170
Tue-1:30, IF 0.88, TSS 115
Wed-1:07, IF 0.83, TSS 77
Thu-1:40, IF 0.80, TSS 108
Sat-3:10, IF 0.83, TSS 218

The rides are mostly comprised of blocks of 20-30 minutes at various SST intensities. I may try 2 hrs at ~75% for one of my midweek rides which will give me a break, but still provide a TSS of 112.

I figure I can squeeze another ~150 TSS out of the week as I extend up toward my 10 hr limit.

Oops. I just realised that is a 10 hr week.

 

[frenchyge]

Thank you, very helpful indeed, no idea how that works but if it does that's great!

Well if you're interested in how it works, this should be sufficient to change your mind.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/showpost.php?p=3058383&postcount=18

The associated thread is where we worked it all out.

 

[Porkyboy]

Well if you're interested in how it works, this should be sufficient to change your mind.

That is truly horrible, made me feel quite ill, I'll go with your explanation, life's too short to do otherwise

PB

 

[rmur17]

Oops. I just realised that is a 10 hr week.

aye, I just added that up. Shoot .. 688 TSS would be 8hrs is an avg. IF of 0.93!!!

I haven't broken the 2:30 hr mark yet but I'm getting there.

Lots of snow here for XC skiiing if anyone needs any

 

[Piotr]

I rode 5 days this week, all indoors, and my total TSS was 688. This is with 8 hrs of riding including warmup/cooldown. I actually had to cut a workout short on Wednesday (TSS of just 77 for that day) due to some ankle pain/tendonitis, from a work related injury. Today I was back on track with my "patented" 5 x 30' workout which racked up a TSS of 218.

The week looks like this: (I include warmup/cooldown in ride time & IF)

Sun-2:40, IF 0.80, TSS 170
Tue-1:30, IF 0.88, TSS 115
Wed-1:07, IF 0.83, TSS 77
Thu-1:40, IF 0.80, TSS 108
Sat-3:10, IF 0.83, TSS 218

The rides are mostly comprised of blocks of 20-30 minutes at various SST intensities. I may try 2 hrs at ~75% for one of my midweek rides which will give me a break, but still provide a TSS of 112.

I figure I can squeeze another ~150 TSS out of the week as I extend up toward my 10 hr limit.

You probably needn't patent your 5x30 min workout. I for one will not infringe on it any time soon (I did 4x30 min once). I did do a 2hr tempo gradually increasing in the 2nd hr and finishing with 5 min at threshold (TSS of 177, 2.5 hrs total). I can't seem to reach 600 TSS/week indoors without getting sick . I don't think I've even done 600 since the summer.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

You probably needn't patent your 5x30 min workout. I for one will not infringe on it any time soon (I did 4x30 min once). I did do a 2hr tempo gradually increasing in the 2nd hr and finishing with 5 min at threshold (TSS of 177, 2.5 hrs total). I can't seem to reach 600 TSS/week indoors without getting sick . I don't think I've even done 600 since the summer.

We're still in the winter build up here in the Northern hemisphere and there's still time to think about building CTL prior to spring and summer races. Thought I'd bump this thread above the spam before winter's over and racing begins and we switch from building CTL to spending it....

-Dave

 

[jbvcoaching]

"patented" 5 x 30' workout

Cycle-Smart athletes and coaches will recognize this as "30 minute blocks of Light (TM)"