To peak or not to peak

[rmur17]

Awesome analysis Rick! I was thinking about estimating TSS for a couple of representative workouts to demonstrate the concept, but you nailed it! It gets a bit trickier when you introduce typical recovery intervals but it makes an awfully good argument for say 30 minute long intervals vs. the 10 to 20 minute variety at a slightly higher power.

-Dave

nah. Just math -- now if i could get some graphs put to good use ....

 

[giannip]

I shoot for a CTL ramp rate of 3 to 5 TSS/day/week most of the winter and haven't had trouble with that build rate yet.

Ok here goes.....PLEASE don't laugh

do you mean that your CTL raise 3-5TTS / day so if today mine was at 55, tomorrow it should be 58 - 60 ?

I know it's probably the dumbest question in history on this forum but for som reason I'm confusing myself...........

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...do you mean that your CTL raise 3-5TTS / day so if today mine was at 55, tomorrow it should be 58 - 60 ?.....

No, that would be a much higher ramp rate, but don't worry no laughter on this end, it's a bit confusing to talk about.

CTL is measured in units of TSS/day or in other words the average daily TSS(for a long averaging period). CTL ramp rate is measured in terms of how fast that CTL rises over some period like a week or month. So a weekly ramp rate is in units of TSS/day/week or you could say it's in terms of (average daily TSS)/week.

So the CTL ramp I'm talking about is how much your CTL rises over the course of a week. Realistically it goes up faster after hard training days and dips a bit on rest days but you can still look at the weekly rise or ramp rate. So if you're at 55 today you wouldn't want to be higher than 63 or so a week from today if you want to stay safe. If you know you can tolerate a faster build you can dig a deeper training hole and force your CTL to rise faster but a lot of folks have run into problems with rapid builds.

When your CTL is lower it's pretty easy to ramp it too fast and dig too deep a training hole. When it's up higher it's a bit harder to accidentally overshoot the ramp rate since it takes harder workouts to make your CTL rise. For example, at a CTL of 55 it only takes an hour of Tempo to make your CTL rise. When your CTL is 100 it takes a full hour at FTP just to stay even or perhaps two hours at high Tempo to drive your CTL up. Alex's advice a while back to watch your CTL ramp rate is always good advice but it's really important when coming back from a long layoff when your CTL will be relatively low.

Hope that makes sense.
-Dave

 

[Alex Simmons]

No, that would be a much higher ramp rate, but don't worry no laughter on this end, it's a bit confusing to talk about.

CTL is measured in units of TSS/day or in other words the average daily TSS(for a long averaging period). CTL ramp rate is measured in terms of how fast that CTL rises over some period like a week or month. So a weekly ramp rate is in units of TSS/day/week or you could say it's in terms of (average daily TSS)/week.

So the CTL ramp I'm talking about is how much your CTL rises over the course of a week. Realistically it goes up faster after hard training days and dips a bit on rest days but you can still look at the weekly rise or ramp rate. So if you're at 55 today you wouldn't want to be higher than 63 or so a week from today if you want to stay safe. If you know you can tolerate a faster build you can dig a deeper training hole and force your CTL to rise faster but a lot of folks have run into problems with rapid builds.

When your CTL is lower it's pretty easy to ramp it too fast and dig too deep a training hole. When it's up higher it's a bit harder to accidentally overshoot the ramp rate since it takes harder workouts to make your CTL rise. For example, at a CTL of 55 it only takes an hour of Tempo to make your CTL rise. When your CTL is 100 it takes a full hour at FTP just to stay even or perhaps two hours at high Tempo to drive your CTL up. Alex's advice a while back to watch your CTL ramp rate is always good advice but it's really important when coming back from a long layoff when your CTL will be relatively low.

Hope that makes sense.
-Dave

Indeed, if someone does have a sustained CTL ramp of >8TSS/wk and isn't getting symptons of digging a deep hole/getting sick, then it's highly likely they have underestimated their FTP or they are just starting out from a very low base.

 

[frenchyge]

It gets a bit trickier when you introduce typical recovery intervals but it makes an awfully good argument for say 30 minute long intervals vs. the 10 to 20 minute variety at a slightly higher power.

Agree that Rick's breakdown was great, but I don't think it makes that argument. Not that I disagree with the above statement ( ) but it's important to remember that we're talking about training stress, rather than training benefit. Unless one's goal is to set new TSS or CTL records, the TSS should be comprised of training that is specific and beneficial to one's events. Personally, I think that makes an argument that there's a time and place for 10min, 20min and 30min intervals in one's training program.

I realize you get it Dave, but I thought I'd mention the caveat before someone else concludes that maximum TSS equals maximum training.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... Unless one's goal is to set new TSS or CTL records, the TSS should be comprised of training that is specific and beneficial to one's events. Personally, I think that makes an argument that there's a time and place for 10min, 20min and 30min intervals in one's training program....

No argument(as usual) frenchyge, but this discussion was offered in the context of maintaining CTL and how moving to higher end work or racing can cost you some CTL. Sooner or later everyone's got to spend some of that training base for high end work, tapers or race recovery, after all that's why we build the base. But I'm with you 100% that appropriate training mix and working on weaknesses is key and big CTL numbers alone won't win races.

-Dave

 

[rmur17]

Agree that Rick's breakdown was great, but I don't think it makes that argument. Not that I disagree with the above statement ( ) but it's important to remember that we're talking about training stress, rather than training benefit. Unless one's goal is to set new TSS or CTL records, the TSS should be comprised of training that is specific and beneficial to one's events. Personally, I think that makes an argument that there's a time and place for 10min, 20min and 30min intervals in one's training program.

I realize you get it Dave, but I thought I'd mention the caveat before someone else concludes that maximum TSS equals maximum training.

aye I was thinking of longer workouts when I wrote it ... but it does hold true if you compare indoor workouts. Doing a 20-min core very hard vs. doing a 40-min core very hard, it's basically impossible to obtain the same training load, i.e. raise the intensity enough in 20-min than in 40-min. And the same goes for 60-min vs. 120-min. I know that sounds frightfully obvious but IMHO very hard efforts anywhere in that range are danged close to having the same physiological effects. If we accept the TSS recipe of intensity and duration and the CTL formulation with TSS as input training load, then (for that range) maximum daily TSS IS maximum training this time of year (IMHO).

Now that assumes your CTL needs building yadda, yadda. If you're already near, at or just coming off long-term CTL peaks then I'd view things a little differently (this is where I was last year).

Personally after missing a couple of training weeks due to work travel and close to another two with the flu, my CTL (down from 110 to 70) definitely needs building before I start really hitting ATT again. But this is very close to where I was in fall.2005 and after a couple of months of SST, I was back to PB levels. Training logs are a good thing.

 

[acoggan]

if someone does have a sustained CTL ramp of >8TSS/wk and isn't getting symptons of digging a deep hole/getting sick, then it's highly likely they have underestimated their FTP or they are just starting out from a very low base.

FWIW, at a recent coaching seminar Frank Overton showed data from one US pro who was able to raise his CTL at a rate of ~8 TSS/d/wk for ~3 mo without, e.g., getting sick, and it was only when it was approaching ~150 TSS/d that he had to back off (mostly, apparently, due to declining motivation). As Frank pointed out, however, this fellow did nothing but eat, sleep, and ride his bike...IOW, other stresses in his life were minimal, and he was doing everything that he could to maximize his recovery from workouts.

 

[giannip]

So if you're at 55 today you wouldn't want to be higher than 63 or so a week from today if you want to stay safe.

Ok great thanks.

When your CTL is lower it's pretty easy to ramp it too fast and dig too deep a training hole.

looking at my CTL I'm not even digging a crack, let alone a hole. Then again I was off the bike for 2 months straight so wanted to get the legs going again.

I've done about 14 workouts and CTL only about about 1.5

 

[giannip]

my CTL is 24 , down from 60 when I stopped .......so I have long way to go. Should be fun

 

[cooljazz]

I'm curious if there are any triathletes out there to hear what your CTL is and what event do you train for. My CTL seems to be levelling off at around 60 but I also run and swim.
-richard

 

[frenchyge]

If we accept the TSS recipe of intensity and duration and the CTL formulation with TSS as input training load, then (for that range) maximum daily TSS IS maximum training this time of year (IMHO).

Yes, if we are selective about the range of intensities and are talking about a more general (vice specific) period in the training program, then I agree we can pretty much make the blanket statement that more (TSS) is better.

But as your math above shows, very hard workouts at the lowest intensities will always yield more TSS, so the individual should use care not to stretch the blanket too far.

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi

I just wanted to say as a fairly new but increasingly well read PM user what a fantastic thread this has been and is, I have found it very very educational, thank you particularly to the major contributors for taking the time to explain things so clearly and for being so generous with your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.

I'm just coming up to 50 years old and I have only been really using a PM in anger as it were since mid October of this year and so am steadily building up my reference data, my major target for next year is La Marmotte (early July). When I first started using my PM I started with a CTL of 31.3 TSS/d (data from CompuTrainer) and at the moment it is 53 TSS/d so an increase of 21.7 points in 8-9 weeks or an increase of about 3 TSS/week so that looks as if I'm in the right area, if a little low on the ramp rate.

So, if I continue like this for the next say 29 weeks until La Marmotte in theory my CTL would be well over 100+? If I'm right I have to keep doing more and more to keep my CTL rising at 3/week. Am I on the right track or is it unreasonable to expect to reach that sort of CTL given my starting point?

ALL advice welcome!

Thank you.

PB

 

[Alex Simmons]

Hi

I just wanted to say as a fairly new but increasingly well read PM user what a fantastic thread this has been and is, I have found it very very educational, thank you particularly to the major contributors for taking the time to explain things so clearly and for being so generous with your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.

I'm just coming up to 50 years old and I have only been really using a PM in anger as it were since mid October of this year and so am steadily building up my reference data, my major target for next year is La Marmotte (early July). When I first started using my PM I started with a CTL of 31.3 TSS/d (data from CompuTrainer) and at the moment it is 53 TSS/d so an increase of 21.7 points in 8-9 weeks or an increase of about 3 TSS/week so that looks as if I'm in the right area, if a little low on the ramp rate.

So, if I continue like this for the next say 29 weeks until La Marmotte in theory my CTL would be well over 100+? If I'm right I have to keep doing more and more to keep my CTL rising at 3/week. Am I on the right track or is it unreasonable to expect to reach that sort of CTL given my starting point?

ALL advice welcome!

Thank you.

PB

Well a CTL of 100 is certainly attainable but to some degree depends on whether you have previously trained to somewhere near that level before or not. I think it may be a mistake to expect to increase season on season CTL peak by too much (assuming you trained for similar times each season).

You are right though, the higher your CTL, the harder it gets to lift it further. e.g.:
at 50 CTL, to lift it 4 points you need a week of ~ 525 TSS
at 100 CTL, to lift it 4 points you need a week of ~ 875 TSS.

While long steady ramps are possible, there comes a time when you need a break and will need to let it plateau or fall somewhat. Also, as you progress and begin to introduce higher levels of intensity into the mix (upper L4 and up) it can get harder to lift CTL, let alone maintain it.

Lastly, CTL ain't everything. Don't forget the composition of your training and specificity to your goals.

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi Alex

You are right though, the higher your CTL, the harder it gets to lift it further. e.g.:
at 50 CTL, to lift it 4 points you need a week of ~ 525 TSS
at 100 CTL, to lift it 4 points you need a week of ~ 875 TSS.

Thank you for the information, very interesting and good advice. Sorry to appear (and perhaps be) thick but how do you calculate the above?

Thanks.

PB

 

[Andy SG]

I push aerobic core work really hard as anyone can guess from my posts. That's based in part on Lydiard's work and on my personal observation that too many cyclists try to skip ahead to intense interval work before they really build a strong aerobic base. That approach hindered my cycling for years and a core aerobic fitness focus has really turned things around for me. That's why I'm such a strong advocate for SST and L4 work since I really do think it's where most folks fall short even if they can suffer for a minute or two at a time and win the local city limit sprint.

I learn a lot via this forum, and are trying to use my knowledge in my training. One thing I like the most is how I can relate power output, in terms of 5 minute Power output or FTP, to my training -and different approaches in training, for instance 2x20 minutes - to improvment in my power output. During my 'studies' I've also realized that two approaches to improve on FTP exists, Push-up, or Pull-up approach.

Dave, you seem to favour a push-up approach, using 'core aerobic fitness' as the motivation. If we just assume that I were responding equally well to push-up or pull-up training when increasing my FTP what would be the other benifits using push-up approach. I guess that means I'm asking: what do you included when you refer to 'core arobic fitness'?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...If we just assume that I were responding equally well to push-up or pull-up training when increasing my FTP what would be the other benifits using push-up approach. I guess that means I'm asking: what do you included when you refer to 'core arobic fitness'?

I've been using the expression "core aerobic fitness" to describe power derived from sustainable metabolic processes combined with overall accumulated training load (CTL). It's just another way to talk about building a "big engine" or other expressions that try to capture the need to devlop sustainable power as opposed to a focus on high end short interval speed work.

From that standpoint, a "push up" method of raising FTP does a better job of also raising CTL for the reasons rmur17 pointed out on the previous page. You can just spend a lot more time in level doing mid SST than pure L4 or L5 work. A push-up method is also easier mentally. It's hard to push every workout right up towards or above your FTP and the thought of getting on the bike for one of those sessions late in the week can be daunting. I know I can get on the bike and do 80% of my FTP just about any day but I want to be pretty fresh for anything over 95%.

Anyway, "core aerobic fitness" is just a convenient way to talk about building a big engine or perhaps a way to talk about "base" building without implying LSD and long hours in the saddle. I like a push up approach (I still do harder efforts, they're just not the foundation of my FTP and CTL building) but others approach this differently so YMMV.

-Dave

 

[rmur17]

I've been using the expression "core aerobic fitness" to describe power derived from sustainable metabolic processes combined with overall accumulated training load (CTL). It's just another way to talk about building a "big engine" or other expressions that try to capture the need to devlop sustainable power as opposed to a focus on high end short interval speed work.

From that standpoint, a "push up" method of raising FTP does a better job of also raising CTL for the reasons rmur17 pointed out on the previous page. You can just spend a lot more time in level doing mid SST than pure L4 or L5 work. A push-up method is also easier mentally. It's hard to push every workout right up towards or above your FTP and the thought of getting on the bike for one of those sessions late in the week can be daunting. I know I can get on the bike and do 80% of my FTP just about any day but I want to be pretty fresh for anything over 95%.

Anyway, "core aerobic fitness" is just a convenient way to talk about building a big engine or perhaps a way to talk about "base" building without implying LSD and long hours in the saddle. I like a push up approach (I still do harder efforts, they're just not the foundation of my FTP and CTL building) but others approach this differently so YMMV.

-Dave

Short-hand: two birds with one stone .

Felt like cheating when I first started it in late 2004.

Having done my first non-weekend 2-hr SST ride on the CT last night, I can say I'm back on track and following my own advice!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

....So, if I continue like this for the next say 29 weeks until La Marmotte in theory my CTL would be well over 100+? If I'm right I have to keep doing more and more to keep my CTL rising at 3/week. ...

Yes, It sounds like you've got a good grasp on this stuff. Just one thing to add to Alex's note on ramp rates...

Your CTL cannot rise above your average daily training load. So if you want your CTL to hit 100 TSS/day then you've got to average at least 100 TSS/day for 6 or more weeks. That implies 700 TSS per week for at least a month and a half. If you train 5 days a week and take total rest on the other days that implies 140 TSS per workout on the average.

In addition to the Performance Manager in WKO+ I have a custom bar chart showing TSS in 7 day blocks and started my training year on a Monday so this chart displays weekly TSS. It helps me keep an eye on my weekly training load so I make sure I'm staying ahead of my current CTL during periods when I'm trying to build.

Anyway, in addition to thinking in terms of sustainable ramp rate you should think about how much daily and weekly load is required to hit your CTL target. Ask yourself if you have enough time available for that sort of load and remember you have to hold that level for quite a while before your CTL approaches that limit. It's part of overall load management and time management.

I've been using double indoor workouts a few days a week to hold my weekly TSS in the 600-700 range. It's a lot of time on an indoor trainer. If you have more time available to train and recover and especially if you live in a climate warm enough for year round outdoor training you can probably hit those targets fairly easily but just make sure your CTL goal of 100+ fits your lifestyle.

And FWIW, Alex's points about training mix and not getting overly fixated on CTL are right on target. This thread has been about peaking and base building so we've talked a lot about CTL but it's only one component of cycling fitness. Don't ignore sustainable power (FTP) and training to match the needs of your events.

-Dave

 

[acoggan]

if you want your CTL to hit 100 TSS/day then you've got to average at least 100 TSS/day for 6 or more weeks.

42 d time constant = 1/2 life of ~29 d = ~3 mo to get 87.5% of the way there, ~4 mo to get 92.25% of the way there, ~5 mo to get 96.125% of the way there, etc.

Not that this is news to you...but I thought it might be helpful for others.