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titanium assembly lore...

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Cycling Equipment
Published
24 October 2006
Last activity
27 October 2006
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dookie
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  1. so i've read plenty, and thought i'd post here to get some more. just what
    is the deal with ti/other metal interaction (under pressure)?

    some say you'll burn in hell if you don't use a copper-based anti-seize
    (e.g.: finish line ti-prep), others say plain ole' white lithium is fine.
    what do the know-it-alls of r.b.t. think?

    assuming a ti frame, what should one do for...

    threaded steel/al bottom bracket cups?
    threaded steel brake posts?
    pressed steel/al headset races?
    al/ti seatpost? what if you've got brass shim stock in there? that's
    almost copper...
    other?

    thanks much!

  2. dookie said:

    so i've read plenty, and thought i'd post here to get some more. just what
    is the deal with ti/other metal interaction (under pressure)?

    some say you'll burn in hell if you don't use a copper-based anti-seize
    (e.g.: finish line ti-prep), others say plain ole' white lithium is fine.
    what do the know-it-alls of r.b.t. think?

    assuming a ti frame, what should one do for...

    threaded steel/al bottom bracket cups?
    threaded steel brake posts?
    pressed steel/al headset races?
    al/ti seatpost? what if you've got brass shim stock in there? that's
    almost copper...
    other?

    thanks much!

    I use Permatex antisieze but grease IS fine. Antisieze will be better
    over a long time and is really tenacious, doesn't wash or wear away but
    grease works also-

  3. dookie said:

    so i've read plenty, and thought i'd post here to get some more. just what
    is the deal with ti/other metal interaction (under pressure)?

    some say you'll burn in hell if you don't use a copper-based anti-seize
    (e.g.: finish line ti-prep), others say plain ole' white lithium is fine.
    what do the know-it-alls of r.b.t. think?

    The issue is called Galvanic Corrosion, it is a phenomenon where two
    materials (does not really HAVE to be metals) placed in contact and in
    the presence of an electrolyte cause an accelerated corrosion response
    from the less nobel material. The electrolyte is the big issue, sweat,
    salt water, moisture from rain or fog, and most cleaning compounds can
    act as an electrolyte. This will cause parts to seize in their fittings
    and to eventually degrade.

    To avoid the best methods (IMO) for rbt purposes are..

    -copper grease (from an auto, machine or marine supply)
    -anti sieze (same as above but 100 times the price)
    - general marine grade grease
    - any grease

    Personally I live in an area that is both moist and where they throw
    salt all over the roads in the winter, I always use copper grease. If
    you live in a dry climate away from the ocean then any sort of grease
    would probably be OK. Avoid cleaners like Citrus-sol, simple green,
    spray-nine, fantastic or the like because they can be powerful
    electrolytes on their own.

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    dookie said:

    so i've read plenty, and thought i'd post here to get some more.


    just what

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is the deal with ti/other metal interaction (under pressure)?

    some say you'll burn in hell if you don't use a copper-based


    anti-seize

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    (e.g.: finish line ti-prep), others say plain ole' white lithium is


    fine.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    what do the know-it-alls of r.b.t. think?

    The issue is called Galvanic Corrosion, it is a phenomenon where two
    materials (does not really HAVE to be metals) placed in contact and in
    the presence of an electrolyte cause an accelerated corrosion response
    from the less nobel material. The electrolyte is the big issue, sweat,
    salt water, moisture from rain or fog, and most cleaning compounds can
    act as an electrolyte. This will cause parts to seize in their


    fittings

    Quoted message said:

    and to eventually degrade.

    To avoid the best methods (IMO) for rbt purposes are..

    -copper grease (from an auto, machine or marine supply)
    -anti sieze (same as above but 100 times the price)
    - general marine grade grease
    - any grease

    Personally I live in an area that is both moist and where they throw
    salt all over the roads in the winter, I always use copper grease. If
    you live in a dry climate away from the ocean then any sort of grease
    would probably be OK. Avoid cleaners like Citrus-sol, simple green,
    spray-nine, fantastic or the like because they can be powerful
    electrolytes on their own.

    A protective coating of anti-seize compound or grease isn't going to
    hurt anything but titanium is very corrosion resistant.

    Bare metal titanium when exposed to oxygen quickly forms a microscopic
    inert surface layer of titanium di-oxide or similar oxides of titanium
    that give it corrosion resistance.

    Titanium is very resistant to galvanic corrosion but corrosive liquids
    could seep into threads and connections and cause corrosion in a
    dissimilar metal like steel or aluminum.

    Titanium is a relatively soft metal and is subject to galling.
    Anti-seize compound or grease can help with this problem.

    http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article24.htm

    Chas.

  5. * * Chas said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    dookie wrote:

    Quoted message said:


    A protective coating of anti-seize compound or grease isn't going to
    hurt anything but titanium is very corrosion resistant.

    Bare metal titanium when exposed to oxygen quickly forms a microscopic
    inert surface layer of titanium di-oxide or similar oxides of titanium
    that give it corrosion resistance.

    the term is "self passivating"

    Quoted message said:


    Titanium is very resistant to galvanic corrosion but corrosive liquids
    could seep into threads and connections and cause corrosion in a
    dissimilar metal like steel or aluminum.

    Titanium is a relatively soft metal and is subject to galling.
    Anti-seize compound or grease can help with this problem.

    http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article24.htm

    Chas.

    exactly right and a good article to link to

  6. Qui si parla Campagnolo said:
    dookie said:

    so i've read plenty, and thought i'd post here to get some more. just what
    is the deal with ti/other metal interaction (under pressure)?

    some say you'll burn in hell if you don't use a copper-based anti-seize
    (e.g.: finish line ti-prep), others say plain ole' white lithium is fine.
    what do the know-it-alls of r.b.t. think?

    assuming a ti frame, what should one do for...

    threaded steel/al bottom bracket cups?
    threaded steel brake posts?
    pressed steel/al headset races?
    al/ti seatpost? what if you've got brass shim stock in there? that's
    almost copper...
    other?

    thanks much!

    I use Permatex antisieze but grease IS fine. Antisieze will be better
    over a long time and is really tenacious, doesn't wash or wear away but
    grease works also-

    I just pulled my bottom bracket out of my titanium mountain bike frame
    the other day and the thread was like new. I used ordinary grease and
    it's been in for about three years, maybe more, and the bike gets ridden
    in all sorts of weather and terrain at least twice a week.

  7. I've done the controlled experiiment inadvertently and proved the value
    of copper lubricants - used copper for most everything on my Litespeed,
    and everything has been fine, forgot to use copper and used regular
    (Parktool) lithium grease on titanium pedal spindles which are now
    permanently married to the cranks. On a common sense level - for the
    cost of titanium components/frames versus a few bucks for the grease,
    why take a chance ?
    For BB, I use belt and suspenders as learned on this NG and also use
    Teflon plumber's tape.

    Lou D'Amelio

  8. Lou D'Amelio said:

    For BB,I use Teflon plumber's tape.


    Someone must really explain this to me: I asked my LBS to use teflon tape
    for the BB and they refused, "since there was absolutely no room to use
    it".

    So how many layers do you use and is there a special way to wind it?

    TIA, Derk

  9. Derk said:
    Lou D'Amelio said:

    For BB,I use Teflon plumber's tape.


    Someone must really explain this to me: I asked my LBS to use teflon tape
    for the BB and they refused, "since there was absolutely no room to use
    it".

    So how many layers do you use and is there a special way to wind it?

    A couple of wraps, just like for plumbing pipe, and as far as I know there
    is no special way to wind it. Like Jell-o, there is always room for
    teflon tape.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
    _`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
    (_)/ (_) |

  10. Derk said:
    Lou D'Amelio said:

    For BB,I use Teflon plumber's tape.


    Someone must really explain this to me: I asked my LBS to use teflon tape
    for the BB and they refused, "since there was absolutely no room to use
    it".

    So how many layers do you use and is there a special way to wind it?

    TIA, Derk

    Dear Derk,

    Teflon tape is just very thin, slightly stretchy, white non-sticky
    tape, very useful for sealing pipe connections.

    It's likely that there's room in anything less than an interference
    fit. If not, it's unlikely that there will be any problem--the tape
    will just be scraped off as you screw the parts together.

    The special way to wind it is just common sense. Start winding at the
    end of the bolt and pull enough to stretch the tape over the threads.
    The tension and stretchiness are enough to keep it in place on threads
    without any adhesive.

    Wrap as if you're tightening a nut onto the bolt and cover the loose
    end of the tape with your first turn. This way, running the bolt into
    the nut will not pull off the end of the tape and will only tighten
    the tape more.

    If you wrap too many layers, they'll just be compressed or even forced
    off as you run the bolt into the nut.

    The disadvantage of teflon tape as a substitute for anti-seize is
    that, no matter how many layers you use, some sections of tape will
    end up cut through by the threads, letting metal touch metal, if
    things are tight enough.

    For plumbers, there's no problem if metal touches metal because
    there's no leak.

    For bicyclists worried about different metals touching and seizing,
    the tape can reduce touching to a small thread section instead of the
    whole length of the bolt.

    The advantage is that teflon tape is quick, isn't messy, cleans up by
    just snipping or tearing the extra tape off, and gives the proud
    installer a clearly visible sign of his work.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  11. David L. Johnson said:
    Derk said:
    Lou D'Amelio said:

    For BB,I use Teflon plumber's tape.

    Someone must really explain this to me: I asked my LBS to use teflon tape
    for the BB and they refused, "since there was absolutely no room to use
    it".

    So how many layers do you use and is there a special way to wind it?

    A couple of wraps, just like for plumbing pipe, and as far as I know there
    is no special way to wind it.

    Yes there is. Wind it as if you screw on a nut.

    Lou
    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu

  12. Quoted message said:

    For plumbers, there's no problem if metal touches metal because
    there's no leak.

    For bicyclists worried about different metals touching and seizing,
    the tape can reduce touching to a small thread section instead of the
    whole length of the bolt.

    The advantage is that teflon tape is quick, isn't messy, cleans up by
    just snipping or tearing the extra tape off, and gives the proud
    installer a clearly visible sign of his work.

    The threads you put tef tape on (a few exceptions, maybe) are tapered,
    in plumbing work. It's a crude sealing system, metal touching metal all
    over the place, but it works ok most of the time.

    Nothing wrong with a layer of tef tape covered with a layer of pipe
    dope or bicycle grease or copper anti-seize. One layer, with some thin
    overlap along edges, is where I'd start for bike parts and most of the
    time for plumbing connections, too. --D-y

  13. Quoted message said:
    Derk said:
    Lou D'Amelio said:

    For BB,I use Teflon plumber's tape.

    Someone must really explain this to me: I asked my LBS to use teflon tape
    for the BB and they refused, "since there was absolutely no room to use
    it".

    So how many layers do you use and is there a special way to wind it?

    TIA, Derk

    Dear Derk,

    Teflon tape is just very thin, slightly stretchy, white non-sticky
    tape, very useful for sealing pipe connections.

    It's likely that there's room in anything less than an interference
    fit. If not, it's unlikely that there will be any problem--the tape
    will just be scraped off as you screw the parts together.

    The special way to wind it is just common sense. Start winding at the
    end of the bolt and pull enough to stretch the tape over the threads.
    The tension and stretchiness are enough to keep it in place on threads
    without any adhesive.

    Wrap as if you're tightening a nut onto the bolt and cover the loose
    end of the tape with your first turn. This way, running the bolt into
    the nut will not pull off the end of the tape and will only tighten
    the tape more.

    If you wrap too many layers, they'll just be compressed or even forced
    off as you run the bolt into the nut.

    The disadvantage of teflon tape as a substitute for anti-seize is
    that, no matter how many layers you use, some sections of tape will
    end up cut through by the threads, letting metal touch metal, if
    things are tight enough.

    For plumbers, there's no problem if metal touches metal because
    there's no leak.

    For bicyclists worried about different metals touching and seizing,
    the tape can reduce touching to a small thread section instead of the
    whole length of the bolt.

    The advantage is that teflon tape is quick, isn't messy, cleans up by
    just snipping or tearing the extra tape off, and gives the proud
    installer a clearly visible sign of his work.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    For a bottom bracket the thread is really too fine and too tight to get
    teflon tape on. As soon as you do it up the tape will simply get pushed
    to the end of the thread. The idea of the tape in normal use is to help
    seal the thread in pipe fittings, however pipe fittings use a tapered
    thread, so there's a lot of room to start with and it gets progressively
    tighter. Parallel threads seal on a copper or fibre washer, or even a
    metal to metal surface.
    Try it if you wish but unless you have a really loose thread, it's not
    going to work.

    Friday

  14. Friday said:

    For a bottom bracket the thread is really too fine and too tight to get
    teflon tape on. As soon as you do it up the tape will simply get pushed
    to the end of the thread. The idea of the tape in normal use is to help
    seal the thread in pipe fittings, however pipe fittings use a tapered
    thread, so there's a lot of room to start with and it gets progressively
    tighter. Parallel threads seal on a copper or fibre washer, or even a
    metal to metal surface.
    Try it if you wish but unless you have a really loose thread, it's not
    going to work.

    Have you ever tried to use teflon tape on a bottom bracket? It works
    well; the threads do not seize, and it cuts down on the noises that some
    bottom brackets make. The tape does not get pushed to the end of the
    thread.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The
    _`\(,_ | common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance,
    (_)/ (_) | and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my
    trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my
    business!" --Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

  15. Derk said:
    Lou D'Amelio said:

    For BB,I use Teflon plumber's tape.

    Quoted message said:

    Someone must really explain this to me: I asked my LBS to use teflon tape
    for the BB and they refused, "since there was absolutely no room to use
    it".

    If there's room for grease, there's room for teflon tape. It's that
    thin.

    Quoted message said:

    So how many layers do you use and is there a special way to wind it?

    Enough to cover the threads. I often go twice around so it stays
    in place better. Overlap the end a bit, hold it in place with your
    thumb, snip or pull to break it off and smooth the end into place.

    --

    John ([email hidden])

  16. Quoted message said:

    For bicyclists worried about different metals touching and seizing,
    the tape can reduce touching to a small thread section instead of the
    whole length of the bolt.


    Thanks for your answer.

    Is the seizing being caused by water that get inside the BB? In other words:
    will it occur especially in bikes that get wet? I have a Titanium bike
    here, that I only use occasionally in good weather. The LBS used Shimano
    paste when they mounted the BB a few years ago and I wonder if I should
    replace this with anti seize, though I don't ride this bike often and it's
    stored inside my house.

    TIA, Derk

  17. "Derk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    For bicyclists worried about different metals touching and seizing,
    the tape can reduce touching to a small thread section instead of the
    whole length of the bolt.


    Thanks for your answer.

    Is the seizing being caused by water that get inside the BB? In other


    words:

    Quoted message said:

    will it occur especially in bikes that get wet? I have a Titanium bike
    here, that I only use occasionally in good weather. The LBS used Shimano
    paste when they mounted the BB a few years ago and I wonder if I should
    replace this with anti seize, though I don't ride this bike often and it's
    stored inside my house.

    No, you're OK with that (white) Shimano paste. The intended use of copper
    paste is in high temperature environments where the oil fraction of grease
    easily disappears. It works also on a bike but it is not necessary.

    Lou

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