Threshold Power Intervals on the trainer

Atsic said:

Is it a good way to train and to improve my FTP? Or the long intervals are obligatory? How i can modify those intervals if is possible?

Thanks in advance.
Antonio

If you absolutely cannot do any longer (>10min) then shorten the recovery, preferably closer to 30 sec and maybe up the power a bit.

There are lots of ways to structure wokouts to make them appear easier mentally, but first off we need a little more information about what % of your 1 hour power your were trying to do your 20min intervals,
remembering that most people can't put out the same power indoors as they can outdoors even if they have large fans blowing on them so maybe try lowering the resistance/power down to the point where you can complete the interval,
other ways to get through the 20m interval would be to start off really easy say 75% this way less warmup is needed (5-15min) and slowly start increasing the resistance or cadance every few min to get to the point where you are at 100-105% and hold it as long as you can 20-30-40min than rest for a few min and start again at say 85% and increase the power for another 10-30m until your done.
If you like 3m intervals how about 3min at 105% than 3min at 85% for 20-30min, this should give you an avg power around 95%.

Good luck and let us know it works out for ya!

First of all thank you for the reply!

Well, about the threshold indoor or outdoor is not a problem actually because i treined only indoor, so i did also the monthly tests indoor. My last test was an average value on the 20 minutes peak of 274 W, it means 260 W as a FTP, right?
I'm training in this power level as i told you before. The problem is not muscoular is simply a mentally problem.
When i have to do the power interval i simply set the power level that i have to mantain for the entire period of the intervals and the trainer is increasing or decreasing the resistency automatically.
From what i'm reading the advices are all for the long intervals, no other ways? :p
Sorry but i think that all of you can understand me how hard is to train only on the trainer... and till july i have no other ways to train...

[quote="Atsic"]First of all thank you for the reply!

Well, about the threshold indoor or outdoor is not a problem actually because i treined only indoor, so i did also the monthly tests indoor. My last test was an average value on the 20 minutes peak of 274 W, it means 260 W as a FTP, right?[QUOTE]


260w sounds a reasonable estimate


[QUOTE]I'm training in this power level as i told you before. The problem is not muscoular is simply a mentally problem.[QUOTE]


SUCK IT UP :p You either want to improve or you don't.


[QUOTE]When i have to do the power interval i simply set the power level that i have to mantain for the entire period of the intervals and the trainer is increasing or decreasing the resistency automatically.
From what i'm reading the advices are all for the long intervals, no other ways? :p[QUOTE]


Well some training is better than no training but as far as targetting your FTP
than the answer is no.
You are neither here nor there, really your in no mans land as far as targetting any specific aerobic system,
to create enough stress on the system to force addaption the interval needs to be at least 8min in length with 10m being the excepted minimum,
and as frost said you need to shorten the rest periods to less than 30 sec and extend the entire interval to atleast 8-10min otherwise the int doesn't count and you should stop and start a new int.
Here is a guide to help you figure out what system you want to work on and the time/intensity needed; table 1 & 2. www.trainwithpower.net/

bubsy said:

SUCK IT UP :p You either want to improve or you don't.

Yes, right! To improve our performances we have to be ready to suffer!!! :o

bubsy said:

Well some training is better than no training but as far as targetting your FTP
than the answer is no.
You are neither here nor there, really your in no mans land as far as targetting any specific aerobic system,
to create enough stress on the system to force addaption the interval needs to be at least 8min in length with 10m being the excepted minimum,
and as frost said you need to shorten the rest periods to less than 30 sec and extend the entire interval to atleast 8-10min otherwise the int doesn't count and you should stop and start a new int.
Here is a guide to help you figure out what system you want to work on and the time/intensity needed; table 1 & 2. www.trainwithpower.net/

I think that the link is not correct, because it send me on the home page and i'm not able to find nothing about table 1 & 2. Anyway i understood what to do. At least 10 minutes intervals, but with only 30 seconds of rest. From the point of view of the mental stress is better to have 2 x 20 and that's all. I appreciated a lot your adivices, at least i will do my intervals correctly.

And just to add something else, i have to say that my intervals workout was inspired from the program of "increase your threshold in 31 days" that offered at the and a good results to everybody tryed it. This programsappeared here http://www.training4cyclists.com/ the last year.

ops double post

A small fine tuning here:

Atsic said:

At least 10 minutes of intervals, but with only 30 seconds of rest.

Shorter intervals are maybe not equally effective as longer, depending on the specific requirement you have in mind (TT vs. Criterium vs. Road vs. MTB vs. ???) but they are still ok if you keep the recovery short enought and complete a set of at least 10 but preferably 20-40 minutes.

Short enought recovery time keeps the metabolic process running that you want to improve.

Couple of popular variations to break the monotony of trainer:
- pyramids - start very moderately, say mid tempo level but keep increasing eg. 10w. each 5 minutes. You'll be surprised how far this can get once you realise that you're putting out your new record power.
- hour of power/over unders where you frequently (say eg. every 2-3 minutes) shoot up the power for a short (once again just an example 15-60 sec) time and return back to "basic" level which could be eg. mid tempo to low L4
(my version: 5 minute cycle. Base level ~90% of FTP. At start of each 5 cycle, 30 sec at ~120-130% FTP. At 3 minutes of cycle 1 min ~105-110% FTP. Time goes flying and after a few cycles you start to think, oh no 3 minutes has gone again, why can't these "recovery" periods feel any longer [img]cyclingforums.combiggrin.gifOpen ↗[/img])

Don't take above mentioned times or watts as anything but example. Exact numbers are not that important but whatever gets you riding and maybe even enjoying the trainer!

Don't forget adequate cooling with the biggest pedestal fan you can find and set up a mental distraction in the form of tv or music. You'd be surprised how useful it is not to be staring at your timer ticking slowly along while you suffer.

And if it's a longer session you'll need food. A caffeine drink helps as well.

Start with 10 minutes maybe in your sweet spot and add intervals. Once you can do 4x15 minutes in the sweet spot then add another 20 watts and build up from 10 minutes again. It's all about progression.

frost said:

If you absolutely cannot do any longer (>10min) then shorten the recovery, preferably closer to 30 sec and maybe up the power a bit.

This was my immediate thought when I read the original post. It is basically what swimmers do to relieve monotony, e.g., a common workout might be X repetitions of Y distance starting every Z seconds, with Z being too short to allow substantial rest between efforts. Physiologically, it can be very similar to continuous exercise, but mentally can make things a bit easier.

acoggan said:

This was my immediate thought when I read the original post. It is basically what swimmers do to relieve monotony, e.g., a common workout might be X repetitions of Y distance starting every Z seconds, with Z being too short to allow substantial rest between efforts. Physiologically, it can be very similar to continuous exercise, but mentally can make things a bit easier.

So it's physiologically ok to take a brief break during a long interval? Say 10 seconds? That'd make long intervals less daunting when you're building up to 20 minutes.

frost said:

A small fine tuning here:
Shorter intervals are maybe not equally effective as longer, depending on the specific requirement you have in mind (TT vs. Criterium vs. Road vs. MTB vs. ???) but they are still ok if you keep the recovery short enought and complete a set of at least 10 but preferably 20-40 minutes.

Short enought recovery time keeps the metabolic process running that you want to improve.

Couple of popular variations to break the monotony of trainer:
- pyramids - start very moderately, say mid tempo level but keep increasing eg. 10w. each 5 minutes. You'll be surprised how far this can get once you realise that you're putting out your new record power.
- hour of power/over unders where you frequently (say eg. every 2-3 minutes) shoot up the power for a short (once again just an example 15-60 sec) time and return back to "basic" level which could be eg. mid tempo to low L4
(my version: 5 minute cycle. Base level ~90% of FTP. At start of each 5 cycle, 30 sec at ~120-130% FTP. At 3 minutes of cycle 1 min ~105-110% FTP. Time goes flying and after a few cycles you start to think, oh no 3 minutes has gone again, why can't these "recovery" periods feel any longer [img]cyclingforums.combiggrin.gifOpen ↗[/img])

Don't take above mentioned times or watts as anything but example. Exact numbers are not that important but whatever gets you riding and maybe even enjoying the trainer!

Honestly i'm really interested to run criterium race, not more longer than 80 km, all of them at 40 km/h. It means fast even there are some hills, but usually not longer than 2-3 kms (when happen to find one, usually are very short). I'm really interested to your version. So let me know if i understud well. You do 5 times consequently:
- 30 sec to 120-130 % FTP
- 2,5 minutes to 90 % FTP
- 1 minute 105-110 % FTP

Right? It can be really a good way to train, for sure not boring at all!!!

grahamspringett said:

Don't forget adequate cooling with the biggest pedestal fan you can find and set up a mental distraction in the form of tv or music. You'd be surprised how useful it is not to be staring at your timer ticking slowly along while you suffer.

And if it's a longer session you'll need food. A caffeine drink helps as well.

Start with 10 minutes maybe in your sweet spot and add intervals. Once you can do 4x15 minutes in the sweet spot then add another 20 watts and build up from 10 minutes again. It's all about progression.

I'm still using music and tv, but the trainer is boring like no other thing!!! Nothing comparable! 😄 Anyway is the only way to train for me and i will do it!

I'm using the intervals to the sweet spot, once a week, i alternate this with the interval to threshold twice a week. I can try also your advice.

Atsic said:

Honestly i'm really interested to run criterium race, not more longer than 80 km, all of them at 40 km/h. It means fast even there are some hills, but usually not longer than 2-3 kms (when happen to find one, usually are very short). I'm really interested to your version. So let me know if i understud well. You do 5 times consequently:
- 30 sec to 120-130 % FTP
- 2,5 minutes to 90 % FTP
- 1 minute 105-110 % FTP

Right? It can be really a good way to train, for sure not boring at all!!!

Not exactly. One cycle is 5 minutes so that:
- 30 sec @ 120-130% (not really paid too much attention to exact watts but clearly a surge of hard. Outdoors I would probably replace it with a bit shorter out of the saddle sprint if thinking about criterium)
- 2,5 min ~90%
- 1 min 105-110 % (once again more by feeling, a shortish TT pace)
- 1 min ~90%
Start all over and repeat x times. Usually 2x25-30min with 5 minutes break in between. At around 40min of total time the 2,5min "recovery" in between starts to feel really short :p.

Of course physiologially there is no any special magic in the workout.

It came up accidentally when I was travelling a lot for business and had to train with hotel gym stationary bikes which were simply awful and the magnetic resistance unit felt like riding on a swamp and at the end of one workout I started to ride harder parts and suddenly realised that the time goes flying.

grahamspringett said:

So it's physiologically ok to take a brief break during a long interval? Say 10 seconds?

Sure. The time constant for changes in metabolism is ~30 s, so as long as you keep the breaks shorter than that it is as if your body doesn't even know that you have stopped exercising. You do, though, have to rely on the overall average power (or the normalized power) to measure the intensity (which means working a bit harder during the 'on' periods if you take frequent breaks).

frost said:

Not exactly. One cycle is 5 minutes so that:
- 30 sec @ 120-130% (not really paid too much attention to exact watts but clearly a surge of hard. Outdoors I would probably replace it with a bit shorter out of the saddle sprint if thinking about criterium)
- 2,5 min ~90%
- 1 min 105-110 % (once again more by feeling, a shortish TT pace)
- 1 min ~90%
Start all over and repeat x times. Usually 2x25-30min with 5 minutes break in between. At around 40min of total time the 2,5min "recovery" in between starts to feel really short :p.

I did it! The work like explayned by you and i have to say that finally i can do it! I can do intervals of 20 minutes or longer on this way. Ok is hard, terribly, each time that i have to start a cycle and to sprint at 120-130 % of FTP (expecially at the end of each macro-cycle) is really really painful but at least i can do this effort. Mentally is more easy, to be attentive all the time to change rythm. Really not bad! At the end of the workout i added 5 X 1 minute at 100 of FTP at 110-115 RPM with 1 minute between each of resting.
Thanks to everybody for the advices!!! 😉

Ah! I forgot! Just another question: usually how many time per week you do work to the FTP?
I usually alternate 2/3 times per week to the FTP to slow ride and if i feel good with the legs i do 1-2 times per week work to Tempo level or to the sweet spot.

Also Atsic, it's good to keep in mind that FTP isn't the only component involved in having success at Crits. Part of smart training periodization is to factor in training facilities related constraint in building your plan. Your personal strengths and weaknesses also count. If your weaknesses happen to be easily exercised indoor, then that counts.

While FTP is important component , for some people it is so easier to push it to its full potential when riding outdoor (2x20 and sweet spot) that they tend to 'maintain' it during winter to later push it to new peaks (aiming at pbs so to speak) during summer, outdoor. It all depends on when exactly you need to be able to set the streets on fire.

I personally find that it doesn't take that long for me to get back to little lower than previous year's figures (although they aren't very high... that could play a role).

In this context, even if short interval training may not be the best way to fully develop your FTP, could still be a very smart option planning wise.

SolarEnergy said:

Also Atsic, it's good to keep in mind that FTP isn't the only component involved in having success at Crits. Part of smart training periodization is to factor in training facilities related constraint in building your plan. Your personal strengths and weaknesses also count. If your weaknesses happen to be easily exercised indoor, then that counts.

While FTP is important component , for some people it is so easier to push it to its full potential when riding outdoor (2x20 and sweet spot) that they tend to 'maintain' it during winter to later push it to new peaks (aiming at pbs so to speak) during summer, outdoor. It all depends on when exactly you need to be able to set the streets on fire.

I personally find that it doesn't take that long for me to get back to little lower than previous year's figures (although they aren't very high... that could play a role).

In this context, even if short interval training may not be the best way to fully develop your FTP, could still be a very smart option planning wise.

I know this. And i'm fully agree with you. For sure the FTP is not the only one thing to have success in the crits, but i think that in a season plan has its own role.
I did a plan where my physical condition is growing step by step, and also the training load is growing up with method. First the endurance (with some tempo rides), after tempo rides and sweet spots (of course not forgeting the endurance too), now threshold workout wih sweet spot. What next? I think for sure i will add some Vo2 max work, and i will plan a specific program only for this level of training, and in the crtis is also important the anaerobic power another level that i will have in consideration. All this trying of course to don't forget all what did in past, so for example even there is a period for the training of the Vo2Max, in the resting day i will do some long training but not hard to train also the endurance.

Hope that this is the right way of the periodisation.

In my mind there is to have my best condition between Augoust and Sempteber. Considering that at the end of june i will start to race again, i have all the time to prepare well. I hope!!!

Advices are all the time appreciated.

PS. Call me Antonio.