the contrast!

RonSonic said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:24:04 -0400, Dan <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sure you're all ROFL'ing at my expense by now...

No, but I am surprised at your cultural illiteracy. Lord of the Rings.
Read it.

Despite the imitators, the movies and all else, it remains a classic of
modern literature. One of the few truly great books of the last century.

I'm a big reader, lots of Fantasy and SF, and this is one of those classic
series that I just can't seem to get through. I've made several attempts
over the years, but it always seems to me that I'm trying to wade through
hip-deep molasses.

Not disagreeing with your assesment of the book(s), just a comment.

Mark

Mark Mitchell said:

Actually, I would wager that many of those folks probably make fairly
hefty money. Have you ever priced chainmail? It's not mass-produced.
All hand-made by serious craftsmen who have put a lot of time and effort
into learning how.

Maybe the OP should have said 'rich goobers'.

Quoted message said:

The same holds true for any kind of (modern) medieval armor. Hell,
whatever they were using that was made of metal costs the world.

If they have the money to buy chainmail and authentic looking armor I
would think they probably had more disposable income than me, and held
back on the comments.

Quoted message said:

The textiles in my experience are made at home, from relatively
inexpensive materials.

Bottom line, I would be willing to bet that people who are seriously into
medieval history re-enactments have a hobby that's *far* more expensive
than the vast majority of cyclists.

Mark

What does a good suit of armor cost these days?
Bill Baka

bbaka said:

What does a good suit of armor cost these days? Bill Baka

Depends what you're looking for.

For just a vest, chain will run $200+, leather, about the same, plate, 3K
and up.

Toy swords (blades that aren't intended to ever actually *hit* anything,
just look pretty) will start around $100-150. To get anything that'll
actually do anything, daggers start around $100, swords can get into 4
digits.

For your medieval shopping pleasure;
http://www.chainmailstore.com/scamerchantsrow/

Note, I am not an expert in any of this, BTW. I've just known people who
are into this stuff. More info at www.sca.org

Mark

Thu, 12 May 2005 00:00:51 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, RonSonic
<[email hidden]> wrote of LOTR:

Quoted message said:

Despite the imitators, the movies and all else, it remains a classic of modern
literature. One of the few truly great books of the last century.

For damaged children, maybe.

It's sappy dreck and a waste of time, IMO.

I read and forgot it until I started to read it again years later.
--
zk

RonSonic said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:24:04 -0400, Dan <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson said:

Dan wrote:

>D. Dub wrote:
>
>>....almost as funny/silly as grown men who dress up in full

blown,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>silly colored team kit on their outrageuosly expensive bikes and
>>pretend they are road bike racers!!!
>>
>
>Agreed.
>
>What the hell is "LOTR"???

Lord, it rings a bell... Any help?

Word games. OK I'll bite. I've heard people described as being OTR,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm guessing it's not related. Must be some kind of kid-related
pop-culture drek that has slipped beneath my childless radar. Seems

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

involve costumes. A character from "Star Wars", perhaps?

I'm sure you're all ROFL'ing at my expense by now...

No, but I am surprised at your cultural illiteracy. Lord of the

Rings. Read it.

Quoted message said:

Despite the imitators, the movies and all else, it remains a classic

of modern

Quoted message said:

literature. One of the few truly great books of the last century.

Ron

A Classic? No not really, pretentious,rambling, incoherent, chocked
full of Made up words. I suggest you read a real book without made up
words, If you're looking for fantasy, read Peake's Gormenghast trilogy,
Doesnt attract re-enactors either.In scale and depth it frankly blows
lotr (which is really only for people who read one book every fifteen
years anyway.

Oh Bugger i'm on the wrong list again. i will shut up now till i can
think of something to say about bikes and go away.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Zoot Katz said:

It's sappy dreck and a waste of time, IMO.

Speaking of which, I've been enjoying the latest Dr Who
incarnation (Tuesday night, 8:00 PM, CBC/channel 2.)

I particularly enjoy that it's so antithetical to
the usual paramilitary settings in Hollywood sci-fi.
Brass neck and audacious wisecracks, instead of
uniforms and protocol and death-ray weapons.

In the last episode, Rose (the Doctor's current
companion) accidentally humanized the last surviving
Dalek. Very moving. Especially when it wanted to
feel sunlight, and described its humanly-mutated
condition as "sickness", before offing itself.

Also speaking of sappy dreck, I noticed tonight that
the Park Theatre is doing a free show of Casablanca --
7:00 PM, May 24. The Park had the whole city worried
when they announced their closure. But it's only
temporary, for upgrading seating & sound.

And getting away from sappy dreck, but more good news --
I see via the Trans-Action listserv, Momentum magazine
is coming back. Excellent.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

rayl said:

A Classic? No not really, pretentious,rambling, incoherent, chocked
full of Made up words. I suggest you read a real book without made up
words, If you're looking for fantasy, read Peake's Gormenghast trilogy,
Doesnt attract re-enactors either.In scale and depth it frankly blows
lotr (which is really only for people who read one book every fifteen
years anyway.

Oh Bugger i'm on the wrong list again. i will shut up now till i can
think of something to say about bikes and go away.

I read the trilogy [that's right - 3 books + The Hobbit] over 30 years
ago, when I was maybe 18, I enjoyed it. It's as simple as that.

Tell me, does it somehow make you feel superior, to not only criticize
the books, but those who read them. I really don't know if people who
do this, are just nasty [censored], or if they suffer from some
inferiority complex that requires them to demonstrate their attempts
at superiority over others. I see this behavior with books, music,
taste in movies, and lots of other area.

Above, in this thread, someone felt the need to call Casablanca some
kind of dreck. So, I guess, those of us who enjoyed Casablanca, and
are Bogart fans, must lack taste.

We all have our guilty pleasures and most find enjoyment in some
things that are not the best of their genre. Instead of ripping on
them, how about offering some positive options.

For example, above - Hey, if you enjoyed LOTR, I suggest you check out
"Peake's Gormenghast trilogy". That way you come across as helpful,
rather than as an elitest literary snob.

I'm not perfect at this either, but I try to refrain from that type of
criticism. I just see this type of behavior, way too often on the
internet.

And finally, when I find myself on the wrong list, I just go away
quietly. But, that's just me;-)

Life is Good!
Jeff

rayl said:

RonSonic said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:24:04 -0400, Dan <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>
>>D. Dub wrote:
>>
>>>....almost as funny/silly as grown men who dress up in full

blown,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>silly colored team kit on their outrageuosly expensive bikes and
>>>pretend they are road bike racers!!!
>>>
>>
>>Agreed.
>>
>>What the hell is "LOTR"???
>
>
> Lord, it rings a bell... Any help?
>
>

Word games. OK I'll bite. I've heard people described as being OTR,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm guessing it's not related. Must be some kind of kid-related
pop-culture drek that has slipped beneath my childless radar. Seems

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

involve costumes. A character from "Star Wars", perhaps?

I'm sure you're all ROFL'ing at my expense by now...

No, but I am surprised at your cultural illiteracy. Lord of the

Rings. Read it.

Quoted message said:

Despite the imitators, the movies and all else, it remains a classic

of modern

Quoted message said:

literature. One of the few truly great books of the last century.

Ron

Quoted message said:

A Classic? No not really, pretentious,rambling, incoherent, chocked
full of Made up words. I suggest you read a real book without made up
words, If you're looking for fantasy, read Peake's Gormenghast trilogy,
Doesnt attract re-enactors either.In scale and depth it frankly blows
lotr (which is really only for people who read one book every fifteen
years anyway.

Not that this should be on a bike group but...
I think it can effectively be argued that LOTR is a classic even if you don't
like it. Whether one loves it (as millions do) or hate it (maybe as many
as who love it) the work represents a watershed in fantasy literature; so
must so that pretty much all of the fantasy written today in some sense
embraces or reacts to the ideas that were present in it.

--
Bill

Quoted message said:

Oh Bugger i'm on the wrong list again. i will shut up now till i can
think of something to say about bikes and go away.

On Wed, 11 May 2005 16:26:50 GMT, Jeff Starr <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Claire Petersky said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

[string of insults snipped]

I thought she came across as bemusedly tolerant of other people's
eccentricities.

Pat, go ride your bike.

I agree. There was nothing mean about the original post. My first
thought was, I wonder if any of them commented on the silly lycra
clad, helmeted cyclist.

Life is Good!
Jeff

They probably did and do.... they're so pasty looking they probably
can't understand why anyone would actually go out in the sun when
there's so much good stuff on the internet! And they're not the only
people who think we look weird.

Of course I'm tolerant.... but they did look so hiliarious, I had to
laugh. Well, nothing is really wrong with a little fantasy... now I'm
off to drink a flagon of Mead!

Mark Mitchell said:

William McHale said:

Claire Petersky said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[string of insults snipped]

Quoted message said:

I thought she came across as bemusedly tolerant of other people's
eccentricities.

Using the term goober and claiming that it is what gets them out of their
parent's basement is not a sign of tolerance. Its painting them as being
stereotypically non-functional people. As far as the the original poster
knows these people might have careers, own their own homes and have
families to go home to, just like most bike riders. Remember that many
Americans view the original poster viewed them.

Actually, I would wager that many of those folks probably make fairly
hefty money. Have you ever priced chainmail? It's not mass-produced.
All hand-made by serious craftsmen who have put a lot of time and effort
into learning how.

The same holds true for any kind of (modern) medieval armor. Hell,
whatever they were using that was made of metal costs the world.

The textiles in my experience are made at home, from relatively
inexpensive materials.

Bottom line, I would be willing to bet that people who are seriously into
medieval history re-enactments have a hobby that's *far* more expensive
than the vast majority of cyclists.

Mark

Well, what difference does itmake how expensive it is? Cocaine is an
expensive habit too. Money doesn't make it more worthy. But if that's
how they spend their money, that's up to them. Seriously, though, it
had to be seen to be believed. IT's the Goobification of society.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jeff Starr said:

Above, in this thread, someone felt the need to call Casablanca some
kind of dreck.

'Twas I.

Quoted message said:

So, I guess, those of us who enjoyed Casablanca, and
are Bogart fans, must lack taste.

Au contraire mon frere. Stories with sappy dreck content
(such as Casablanca) can have all kinds of redeeming qualities
and features. Maybe that even applies to some of those
touchie-feelie Robin Williams efforts. Sappy dreckness itself
can even work for a story. Kurt Vonnegut put it to good use,
but he wasn't pretentious with it (IMO). I don't mind a little
sappy dreck when I've got the taste for something sweet and
fluffy. As long as it isn't too cloying or maudlin.

But I've gotta admit, I find Tolkein's hobbit stuff can be
rather too cute, and confusable with The Wizard of Oz. I
think it owes much of its popularity to '60s drug culture.
But it is an interesting exercise in artificial reality.
And at least LOTR doesn't have a whole cult talking in
Klingon or Elven (yet) (I hope).

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

On Thu, 12 May 2005 12:28:02 -0700, Tom Keats wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

And at least LOTR doesn't have a whole cult talking in
Klingon or Elven (yet) (I hope).

Hate to break it to ya, but Elvish has been around for a long time. Both
written and spoken. More than one dialect too, if I recall correctly.

Hey, to each their own.

Mark

blanshay said:

Mark Mitchell said:

William McHale said:

Claire Petersky <[email hidden]> wrote:
> "Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...

> [string of insults snipped]

> I thought she came across as bemusedly tolerant of other people's
> eccentricities.

Using the term goober and claiming that it is what gets them out of
their parent's basement is not a sign of tolerance. Its painting them
as being stereotypically non-functional people. As far as the the
original poster knows these people might have careers, own their own
homes and have families to go home to, just like most bike riders.
Remember that many Americans view the original poster viewed them.

Actually, I would wager that many of those folks probably make fairly
hefty money. Have you ever priced chainmail? It's not mass-produced.
All hand-made by serious craftsmen who have put a lot of time and effort
into learning how.

The same holds true for any kind of (modern) medieval armor. Hell,
whatever they were using that was made of metal costs the world.

The textiles in my experience are made at home, from relatively
inexpensive materials.

Bottom line, I would be willing to bet that people who are seriously into
medieval history re-enactments have a hobby that's *far* more expensive
than the vast majority of cyclists.

Mark

Well, what difference does itmake how expensive it is? Cocaine is an
expensive habit too. Money doesn't make it more worthy. But if that's how
they spend their money, that's up to them. Seriously, though, it had to be
seen to be believed. IT's the Goobification of society.

I mentioned the financial outlay to respond to your characterization of
no life losers living in their parents' basement.

And here you go again, comparing it to a cocaine addiction, saying it's
not worthy. This strikes me as something other than 'bemusedly tolerant'.

What I find distasteful is your making a value judgement about how worthy
their hobby is, based on whether it's something you find interesting or
not.

Personally, I find dog shows absolutely ridiculous. 3,000 watt car
stereos, to my mind, are an absolute waste of money. But, to each their
own.

Mark

William McHale said:

Quoted message said:

A Classic? No not really, pretentious,rambling, incoherent, chocked
full of Made up words. I suggest you read a real book without made up
words, If you're looking for fantasy, read Peake's Gormenghast trilogy,
Doesnt attract re-enactors either.In scale and depth it frankly blows
lotr (which is really only for people who read one book every fifteen
years anyway.

Not that this should be on a bike group but...
I think it can effectively be argued that LOTR is a classic even if you don't
like it. Whether one loves it (as millions do) or hate it (maybe as many
as who love it) the work represents a watershed in fantasy literature; so
must so that pretty much all of the fantasy written today in some sense
embraces or reacts to the ideas that were present in it.

Well, that's true, a classic doesn't necessarily mean everyone will
love it. I'm not a big fan of Jane Austen, and yet her books are
classics. And as anyone who was an english major will tell you,we had
to read plenty of books that were required because they are classics
and we didn't like them. But you had to read them and write papers etc
and had no choice. Like "Pilgrims Progress"- does anyone willingly
read that? Fortunately it wasn't on any of my class reading lists, but
there were other books I had to snore my way through.

I also am among those who can't see the big appeal of LOTR. It seems
to be that it's not really about how great the writing is, but it's
about the characters and the whole 'world' it creates. I rarely hear
anyone rave about the great writing; it's more about the story and the
characters and the wizards. ANd there's a reason for that- the writing
isn't really that good! And a lot of popular books are like that.
Harlequin romances are dreck- it's the stories and the fantasy that
are the big attractions. I'm just using them as an example. Anyways
that's my opinion- remember, it's all subjective. We're all allowed
to like or dislike any books, or bikes for that matter.

Mark Mitchell said:

Quoted message said:

Well, what difference does itmake how expensive it is? Cocaine is an
expensive habit too. Money doesn't make it more worthy. But if that's how
they spend their money, that's up to them. Seriously, though, it had to be
seen to be believed. IT's the Goobification of society.

I mentioned the financial outlay to respond to your characterization of
no life losers living in their parents' basement.

And here you go again, comparing it to a cocaine addiction, saying it's
not worthy. This strikes me as something other than 'bemusedly tolerant'.

What I find distasteful is your making a value judgement about how worthy
their hobby is, based on whether it's something you find interesting or
not.

Personally, I find dog shows absolutely ridiculous. 3,000 watt car
stereos, to my mind, are an absolute waste of money. But, to each their
own.

Mark

Mark, you are reading things into this, that aren't said. She used a
coke addition as an example of "an expensive habit". There was no
direct or to my reading, implied comparison to the re-enactors. She
says "more worthy", you see "not worthy".

Just as people often find a group of lycra clad bicyclists amusing,
she saw those people as amusing. You are trying to make the OP less
tolerant and likable, than she really is.

And your insult od dog shows, is no more tolerant than her comments on
the re-enactors. Putting your little disclaimer on the bottom " But,
to each their own.", is supposed to show you as being the better, more
tolerant person. I don't think so.

Life is Good!
Jeff

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 12 May 2005 16:12:02 GMT, William McHale

[...]

Quoted message said:

I also am among those who can't see the big appeal of LOTR. It seems
to be that it's not really about how great the writing is, but it's
about the characters and the whole 'world' it creates. I rarely hear
anyone rave about the great writing; it's more about the story and the
characters and the wizards.

Me too. As genres I really like science fiction and alternate history.
REaders of both have a fairly large crossover to fantasy. And to be fair
their have been a few odd fantasy stories I have enjoyed - those done for
humour with tongue firmly in cheek. I recall one short story that had a
character named Condom the Trojan amongst other bon mots.

When I was much younger I got The Hobbit, described to me as a good
introductory book to LotR. I did finish it but I had absolutely no desire to
read any more of the saga.

Quoted message said:

We're all allowed
to like or dislike any books, or bikes for that matter.

No. Everyone must like bikes!

🙂

Just think: If Tolkein had put all of his coterie of characters on bikes he
could have wrapped their quest in one book.

--
'Lemme 'splain... No, no time.
Lemme sum up.' -inigo montoya

Dan said:

RonSonic said:

Dan said:

Bill Sornson wrote:

>Dan wrote:
>
>
>>D. Dub wrote:
>>
>>
>>>....almost as funny/silly as grown men who dress up in full blown,
>>>silly colored team kit on their outrageuosly expensive bikes and
>>>pretend they are road bike racers!!!
>>>
>>
>>Agreed.
>>
>>What the hell is "LOTR"???
>
>
>Lord, it rings a bell... Any help?
>
>

Word games. OK I'll bite. I've heard people described as being OTR, but
I'm guessing it's not related. Must be some kind of kid-related
pop-culture drek that has slipped beneath my childless radar. Seems to
involve costumes. A character from "Star Wars", perhaps?

I'm sure you're all ROFL'ing at my expense by now...

No, but I am surprised at your cultural illiteracy. Lord of the Rings. Read it.

Despite the imitators, the movies and all else, it remains a classic of modern
literature. One of the few truly great books of the last century.

Ron

Ron-And I'm surprised at your gullibility. My remarks were tongue in
cheek.
A sense of humor. Get one.

Oh. Claiming ignorance repeatedly is funny. I'll remember that.

Quoted message said:

Or maybe you're just OTR...

Hahha. Uhhh, what's that?

Ron

Quoted message said:

Dan

On Thu, 12 May 2005 19:44:36 -0400, "1oki" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 12 May 2005 16:12:02 GMT, William McHale

[...]

Quoted message said:

I also am among those who can't see the big appeal of LOTR. It seems
to be that it's not really about how great the writing is, but it's
about the characters and the whole 'world' it creates. I rarely hear
anyone rave about the great writing; it's more about the story and the
characters and the wizards.

Me too. As genres I really like science fiction and alternate history.
REaders of both have a fairly large crossover to fantasy. And to be fair
their have been a few odd fantasy stories I have enjoyed - those done for
humour with tongue firmly in cheek. I recall one short story that had a
character named Condom the Trojan amongst other bon mots.

When I was much younger I got The Hobbit, described to me as a good
introductory book to LotR. I did finish it but I had absolutely no desire to
read any more of the saga.

Quoted message said:

We're all allowed
to like or dislike any books, or bikes for that matter.

No. Everyone must like bikes!

🙂

Just think: If Tolkein had put all of his coterie of characters on bikes he
could have wrapped their quest in one book.

Hahaha....you're right. Anyone who doesn't like bikes is a DEVIANT!

THis reminds me of a story that was recently in the news, some kid was
injured in the eye playing paintball. So there were some stories about
paintball and how popular it's becoming. However, everyone they
interviewed looked, well, rather dorky.Except, instead of wearing
medieval hobbit garb, they wear miitary style uniforms and face
masks. I guess it's just another form of role playing game.
..Maybe was just who they chose to interview, or the people (adults
that is) who are drawn to this activity are REALLY goobers, albeit in
better physical shape than the Hobbit guys.

One guy they talked to (he looked relatively attractive) was
explaining the lure of paintball. "It gives you a chance to get out
into the sunshine and fresh air, and it's a social occasion as well."

I thought: Gee, if that's the attraction, then why not just get
yourself a bike?

RonSonic said:

Oh. Claiming ignorance repeatedly is funny. I'll remember that.

Quoted message said:

Or maybe you're just OTR...

Hahha. Uhhh, what's that?

See, you're a natural. Now try with a little more finesse.

Dan

Mark Mitchell said:

Personally, I find dog shows absolutely ridiculous. 3,000 watt car
stereos, to my mind, are an absolute waste of money. But, to each their
own.

Mark

Those cars with the 3,000 watt stereos are a good moron alert for me to
pull over when riding. What pisses me off is when a car goes by at 2:00
AM and shakes my house and me awake. Of course their doors will soon
fall off from metal fatigue, so I may get the last laugh. What musical
quality is there to a series of 20 Hertz blasts and nothing else? No
lyrics, no high notes, just resonating all the walls and shaking their
cars apart.
Bill Baka, who can still hear.