Sub zero running - shoes and clothes

oh...you're F'ed. (kidding). right now today you should probe the area you're heading to and see if
the local universities have indoor field houses, etc. and what arrangements can be made to access
them. i bet this option is available to you w/some probing within the community...i am sure indoor
tracks can be found within reasonable distance.

other than that adidas makes a winter trail running shoe that's on their site. the next step up
would be to look at the stuff from merrell/solomon/montrail, etc.

good luck,

In article said:

Hi, I'm gradually coming back from a long spell of injury. My work commitments are about to take
me from the norht-east of England to Tonsberg in Norway. I'm told to expect snow on the ground,
and the long range forecast hovers around zero degrees centigrade. Now that my training is
starting to come together again, I don't want to end up taking a long break for no reason.

1) I assume my usual road shoes will be inadequate. If there's snow on the ground, will trail
shoes be okay? How waterproof are they? What neutral trail shoes do people like?

No shoe will always keep your feet completely dry if there's *wet* snow.

One thing some people have done is used wool socks (insulates even when it's wet)

Quoted message said:

2) I normally run with an odlo 'warm' top, which I've never been cold in beyond the first few
hundred metres. Combined with a waterproof shell and tracksters, is this likely to be enough?

Should be plenty. I just use a "warm top" that has windproof material at the front. Bottoms:
windproof brief, light pants. Socks: regular coolmax-like sock. Hat, gloves. A shell combined with
an insulating top should do fine.

Quoted message said:

3) I usually use a thin hat and gloves, and smear vaseline on lips/nose/ears to avoid chapping.
Will this be enough to protect extremities? (I usually

I like to use wind boxers. If you prefer gloves, by all means use them.

Quoted message said:

end up removing the hat and gloves after a couple of miles.)

I tend to keep the boxers on

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Yes, for sub zero running, I do recommend and prefer shoes and clothes. -- Josh (couldn't resist)

James Barton said:

I'm told to expect snow on the ground, and the long range forecast hovers around zero degrees
centigrade.

I think respondents have missed the fact that 0 deg C = 32 deg F. If you are looking at running at
32 deg F and a little below, we're talking about the same conditions that prevail in most of the
northern U.S. (and this frigid year, you're better off, 'cause it's been ridiculously colder than
usual). Unless there's a big miscommunication here, I don't see why the many recommendations on this
topic in so many postings of the past couple months wouldn't be just fine. Y'know, all that stuff
about layers, light gloves, ear protection against wind, wicking fabrics so that sweat doesn't wind
up causing chill, etc.

Plenty of snow here in the northeastern US, and I don't hear discussion of special footware, just
slower more careful running. Winter is not the time to push speed workouts with uncertain footing
and stiffer less sensitive legs. I'm just wearing my regular running shoes and plowing along thru
whatever happens to be on the ground at the moment.

And, I love the recommendation to take up cross-country skiing! What a unique opportunity, being in
Scandanavia.

Anyway, best of luck and enjoy. -- Josh in Syracuse

here is the best advice you'll ever get. STop running and start skiing (nordic) You are headed to
the nordic skiers heaven. Buy some skis, boots and poles (used) for cheap and have at it. No
injuries, no pounding, all glide, all fun. For those of you that think its for gram and gramps,
think again - www.skinnyski.com check it out.

JK

"Globaldisc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040119192151.28470.00000286@mb-
m15.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

oh...you're F'ed. (kidding). right now today you should probe the area you're heading to and see
if the local universities have indoor field

houses,

Quoted message said:

etc. and what arrangements can be made to access them. i bet this option

is

Quoted message said:

available to you w/some probing within the community...i am sure indoor

tracks

Quoted message said:

can be found within reasonable distance.

other than that adidas makes a winter trail running shoe that's on their

site.

Quoted message said:

the next step up would be to look at the stuff from

merrell/solomon/montrail,

Quoted message said:

etc.

good luck,

Run naked.

James Barton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<_a_Ob.101$ff5.25@news-
binary.blueyonder.co.uk>...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I'm gradually coming back from a long spell of injury. My work commitments are about to take
me from the norht-east of England to Tonsberg in Norway. I'm told to expect snow on the ground,
and the long range forecast hovers around zero degrees centigrade. Now that my training is
starting to come together again, I don't want to end up taking a long break for no reason.

1) I assume my usual road shoes will be inadequate. If there's snow on the ground, will trail
shoes be okay? How waterproof are they? What neutral trail shoes do people like?

2) I normally run with an odlo 'warm' top, which I've never been cold in beyond the first few
hundred metres. Combined with a waterproof shell and tracksters, is this likely to be enough?

3) I usually use a thin hat and gloves, and smear vaseline on lips/nose/ears to avoid chapping.
Will this be enough to protect extremities? (I usually end up removing the hat and gloves after
a couple of miles.)

From what I can see, comparing the weather forecasts at
uk.weather.comUKXX1854Open ↗ and
wunderground.com01488.htmlOpen ↗, the area I'm going to is around ten to
fifteen degrees centigrade colder most days than the area I'm acclimatised to. Any tips on
avoiding cold air headaches?

All suggestions appreciated, James

James Barton said:

Hi, I'm gradually coming back from a long spell of injury. My work commitments are about to take
me from the norht-east of England to Tonsberg in Norway.

As already mentioned, consider nordic skiing. Geez, you're right there
🙂 You'd be surprised how similar the motion is, esp. if breaking
trail, and you don't have the impact of running, but it is weight-bearing.

An additional thought since you're just recovering from injury, presumably lower limb, be sure to
keep your legs warm. Healing needs blood circulation. Normal muscle function needs blood and warm
muscle temperatures. Cold may restrict blood circulation. Keeping legs warm to facilitate blood
circulation aids healing and normal muscle function, at least that's been my experience.

Quoted message said:

I'm told to expect snow on the ground, and the long range forecast hovers around zero degrees
centigrade.

I'd be most concerned about the temperatures within a few degrees of freezing (0C) rather than the
cold temperatures. Near freezing is when you're likely to get freeze-thaw, slush, and/or ice,
depending on a lot of things.

Now that my training is starting to come

Quoted message said:

together again, I don't want to end up taking a long break for no reason.

1) I assume my usual road shoes will be inadequate.

I've used my regular road shoes on snow and ice down to about -20C (-5F), and my current regular
trail shoes that are more ventilated (=cooler) down to -23C (-10F).

If there's snow on the

Quoted message said:

ground, will trail shoes be okay? How waterproof are they? What neutral trail shoes do
people like?

The bigger issue, at least for me, is do they have enough room for a heavy sock. I used road shoes
for all my snow running in southcentral Alaska up until about a year ago, and only switched because
my PT recommended another shoe for biomechanical reasons. The trail version works better for me
since I usually run trails. If it's cold (20F and cooler) and you're running on top the snow, wet
shoes shouldn't be an issue since they'll be dry. If it's warm, like near freezing, then you may get
slushy conditions that will swallow your feet. And this is the kinda thing where everybody is really
different. Some people deal with the wet feet, others use warmer socks, some get waterproof shoes
and/or socks and wallow in the sweat. Cold wet feet can cramp (at least for me they do); wet feet
can blister.

Quoted message said:

2) I normally run with an odlo 'warm' top, which I've never been cold in beyond the first few
hundred metres. Combined with a waterproof shell and tracksters, is this likely to be enough?

You may want to use a breathable shell or you *will* get cold and sweaty. I'm not familiar with the
top, but I generally wear a synthetic short-sleeve t, long-sleeve zip mock turtle neck, and light
wind shell from +5C to -7C (+40F to +20F), sometimes colder, assuming no wind. From -7C to -18C, I
may put another long-sleeve synthetic top or vest on. If it's really windy (like 30-60mph), I'll use
a heavier wind shell with a really good hood.

Quoted message said:

3) I usually use a thin hat and gloves, and smear vaseline on lips/nose/ears to avoid chapping.
Will this be enough to protect extremities? (I usually end up removing the hat and gloves after
a couple of miles.)

That should be more than enough. I don't use vaseline usually until about -13C (+10F) and below and
that sometimes depends on wind also.

Quoted message said:

From what I can see, comparing the weather forecasts at
uk.weather.comUKXX1854Open ↗ and
wunderground.com01488.htmlOpen ↗,

At the coldest of those temperatures, you might want to consider a balaclava to breathe warm, moist
air. But it's marginal for its use.

the area I'm going

Quoted message said:

to is around ten to fifteen degrees centigrade colder most days than the area I'm acclimatised to.
Any tips on avoiding cold air headaches?

What's a cold air headache? I've lived in Alaska for 23+ years and active in outdoor winter sports
and am not sure what that is.

Quoted message said:

All suggestions appreciated, James

Good luck and enjoy! You'll be in winter sports heaven!

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Josh Steinberg said:

Yes, for sub zero running, I do recommend and prefer shoes and clothes.

But only a recent change since you used to enjoy shorts in very cold weather.

Quoted message said:

-- Josh (couldn't resist)

Me either. 🙂

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Josh Steinberg said:

Plenty of snow here in the northeastern US, and I don't hear discussion of special footware, just
slower more careful running.

I was at a friends house yesterday for run. After the run was over he sat there and added 3/8th hex
screws to the bottom of his shoes for the icy days. He has a 27 years of never missing a day. The
screws allow him to run in just about anything. I'm going to do the same to a nearly worn out pair
so I don't have to fret slipping. Work just a well Yaktrac etc. and cheaper. he used then to run
trails in the winter.

There is web page to show this that I dig up.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

In article said:

James Barton wrote: works better for me since I usually run trails. If it's cold (20F and cooler)
and you're running on top the snow, wet shoes shouldn't be an issue since they'll be dry. If it's
warm, like near freezing, then you may get slushy conditions that will swallow your feet. And this
is the kinda thing where everybody is really different. Some people deal with the wet feet, others
use warmer socks, some get waterproof shoes and/or socks and wallow in the sweat. Cold wet feet
can cramp (at least for me they do); wet feet can blister.

As February looms, I'm becomming more concerned about this. In January, we just have cold (often in
the 10-25F range, occasionally in single digits)

In Feb, we get more cold rain.

I know people who've tried Goretex socks, and these seem expensive and like you say, you end up
getting drenched anyway.

The one approach I'm hearing more success stories with is using good old-fashioned wool (which
reuptedly insulate when wet). I'm going to give this a try when the slushfest begins (my wool
socks are in the mail ... ). I've already tried running in my "Holeproof Explorer" socks which a
relative gave me for the NY weather (an Aussie brand you can't get in the US) and I'm quite happy
with them so far.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article said:

James Barton wrote: works better for me since I usually run trails. If it's cold (20F and cooler)
and you're running on top the snow, wet shoes shouldn't be an issue since they'll be dry. If it's
warm, like near freezing, then you may get slushy conditions that will swallow your feet. And this
is the kinda thing where everybody is really different. Some people deal with the wet feet, others
use warmer socks, some get waterproof shoes and/or socks and wallow in the sweat. Cold wet feet
can cramp (at least for me they do); wet feet can blister.

As February looms, I'm becomming more concerned about this. In January, we just have cold (often
in the 10-25F range, occasionally in single digits)

In Feb, we get more cold rain.

I know people who've tried Goretex socks, and these seem expensive and like you say, you end up
getting drenched anyway.

My feet have a high instep so many fixed dimension socks don't work well for me - cut circulation
where top of foot meets ankle and may bunch elsewhere. Some are too fat in the toe box area, where
I'm usually tight anyway. The gore-tex socks I tried (REI) don't stretch and were sufficiently poor
for me that I sent them back unused. I have some StormCloth socks that similarly don't stretch, but
work a little better and were much cheaper. One lady at snowshoe seminar on Sun had those, I think,
and they seemed to work ok for her - about -20F or so. I've also tried SealSkinz, and for me they
work the best of any of these since they stretch. Whether they work better than plastic produce
bags, I don't know 😉 Bill asked me about shoes and socks under the Road Camber thread and I
provided some more info there.

Quoted message said:

The one approach I'm hearing more success stories with is using good old-fashioned wool (which
reuptedly insulate when wet).

What works well for me so far is SmartWool socks (unfortunately I got them before I started keeping
detailed track of which style, but it's probably the heaviest weight, crew top sock). They're a
little heavier than my Ultimax, but my Trespass 1's are wide enough to accommodate them comfortably
without constricting circulation - and the only pair of shoes I've had that can do that and why I
had little experience with them until this year. (and why I'm more than mildly annoyed about change
in Trespass toe box) I haven't used them in wetter conditions yet. My Thorlo's worked well in
somewhat wet conditions during the summer (coolmax cramped), but not warm enough in winter, although
I didn't try them in the -10 to -20F over the past week. (I've been taking the approach of find out
what keeps me warm enough, then back track and see if I can get by with something less if I sweat.)

If we get slush this year (possibly soon), my first try would be the SmartWools, then the Ultimax.
I've used wool for years in field work and have long recognized their value for warmth when wet.
It's just that when a wool CPO weight jacket gets wet, it gets *really* heavy and why the synthetics
are nice but aren't suitable for some work.

My more traditional wool rag socks for hiking are coarse inside and need a liner - definitely too
much bulk for me in a running shoe.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Doug Freese said:

There is web page to show this that I dig up.

skyrunner.comscrewshoe.htmOpen ↗

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot said:

Doug Freese said:

There is web page to show this that I dig up.

skyrunner.comscrewshoe.htmOpen ↗

That's it, thanks. You have to be a little careful with the screws in the very front since the
midsole tapers.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

skyrunner.comscrewshoe.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

That's it, thanks. You have to be a little careful with the screws in the very front since the
midsole tapers.

Yes, you won´t be "toe-kickoffing", anyway.

Here´s a pic of the sole of a special studded running shoe: juoksija-lehti.fipohja.jpgOpen ↗

You should also consider that the studs will be ripped off easily if the tread pattern doesn´t allow
for several milli- meters of rubber around the stud.

Also, as a warning: severe overpronating may not be compatible with frequent runs/high mileage on
studded shoes.

Anders

Doug Freese said:

Josh Steinberg said:

Yes, for sub zero running, I do recommend and prefer shoes and clothes.

But only a recent change since you used to enjoy shorts in very cold weather.

Yes, yes, too true. Now I'm being careful rather than bold. Warm pants for any run with a temp under
30 degrees. Do I turn fewer heads, yes. Do I get injured less, so far so good!

A little older and a little smarter, -- Josh

Dot said:

Doug Freese said:

There is web page to show this that I dig up.

skyrunner.comscrewshoe.htmOpen ↗

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Very neat idea! Need is rare, but when needed, those would be ever so helpful! Thanks. -- Josh

We're catching the tail end of the weather Norway is having right now, so
today it's 7 degrees below zero here with a bright blue sky and lots of
sunshine. The minor roads are not pleasant to run on (like ice rinks after
the recent spate of freeze-thaws and snowfalls we've enjoyed) but the forest
trails are great where nobody else has been - lots of virgin snow, crunchy
and thick enough to protect you from any real ice below. But the trails are
hell where the general populace has tried to take its Sunday constitutional
complete with fake Norwegian accents. (You can see where said populace gave
up - about 300 yards into the woods).
Anyhow, 7 degrees below was warm enough for me to take off my hat and gloves
after 20 minutes. I stopped to have a packet of raisins after 73 minutes and
chickened out of one iced-up trail, choosing the neatly swept cycle track
along the main road for two miles instead. Uncomfy with my Saucony Approach
trail shoes, that was. So back into the woods.
Did the last 3 k a bit faster than I usually manage and got home after 2
hours 19 minutes, still hatless and gloveless. Clothing: wicking
long-sleeved vest and tights, club running T with sleeves, running shorts
(to protect goolies), breathable Asics windbreaker and trousers. Double
socks. I could have run without the club T but I think I'd have felt the
cold after my raisin stop.
The snow and ice surfaces are very hard on the lower legs and ankles. That
should be your main concern if the temp. remains above 10 degrees of frost.
You'll run slower and you'll ache more. Otherwise there's no real difference
between running in the UK and running in Scandinavia.
Jonathan
"James Barton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I'm gradually coming back from a long spell of injury. My work commitments are about to take
me from the norht-east of England to Tonsberg in Norway. I'm told to expect snow on the ground,
and the long range forecast hovers around zero degrees centigrade. Now that my training is
starting to come together again, I don't want to end up taking a long break for no reason.

1) I assume my usual road shoes will be inadequate. If there's snow on the ground, will trail
shoes be okay? How waterproof are they? What neutral trail shoes do people like?

2) I normally run with an odlo 'warm' top, which I've never been cold in beyond the first few
hundred metres. Combined with a waterproof shell and tracksters, is this likely to be enough?

3) I usually use a thin hat and gloves, and smear vaseline on

lips/nose/ears

Quoted message said:

to avoid chapping. Will this be enough to protect extremities? (I usually end up removing the hat
and gloves after a couple of miles.)

From what I can see, comparing the weather forecasts at
uk.weather.comUKXX1854Open ↗ and
wunderground.com01488.htmlOpen ↗, the area I'm going to is around ten to
fifteen degrees centigrade colder most days than the area I'm acclimatised to. Any tips on
avoiding cold air headaches?

All suggestions appreciated, James

Jonathan Sydenham said:

We're catching the tail end of the weather Norway is having right now, so today it's 7 degrees
below zero here with a bright blue sky and lots of sunshine. The minor roads are not pleasant to
run on (like ice rinks after the recent spate of freeze-thaws and snowfalls we've enjoyed) but the
forest trails are great where nobody else has been - lots of virgin snow, crunchy and thick enough
to protect you from any real ice below. But the trails are hell where the general populace has
tried to take its Sunday constitutional complete with fake Norwegian accents. (You can see where
said populace gave up - about 300 yards into the woods).

I'm off to Tonsberg, south of Oslo, probably for a fortnight. Because I expect not to get much time
off while the sun is up, I'll probably stay away from trails, since I imagine they'll be unlit. If I
get an afternoon off over a weekend, I'll go 10 - 15 miles along the trails and minor roads nearby,
and enjoy watching my boss squirm at the thought I might get lost or injured before I've finished...

Quoted message said:

Anyhow, 7 degrees below was warm enough for me to take off my hat and gloves after 20 minutes. I
stopped to have a packet of raisins after 73 minutes and chickened out of one iced-up trail,
choosing the neatly swept cycle track along the main road for two miles instead. Uncomfy with my
Saucony Approach trail shoes, that was. So back into the woods. Did the last 3 k a bit faster than
I usually manage and got home after 2 hours 19 minutes, still hatless and gloveless. Clothing:
wicking long-sleeved vest and tights, club running T with sleeves, running shorts (to protect
goolies), breathable Asics windbreaker and trousers. Double socks. I could have run without the
club T but I think I'd have felt the cold after my raisin stop.

Do you think you could cope with just one layer over the legs?

Quoted message said:

The snow and ice surfaces are very hard on the lower legs and ankles. That should be your main
concern if the temp. remains above 10 degrees of frost. You'll run slower and you'll ache more.
Otherwise there's no real difference between running in the UK and running in Scandinavia.

Perhaps I should take my ordinary road shoes and look for gritted roads or swept pavements.

Thanks for the advice. James

James Barton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm off to Tonsberg, south of Oslo, probably for a fortnight. Because I expect not to get
much time off while the sun is up, I'll probably stay away from trails, since I imagine
they'll be unlit.

Lit - there´ll be quite a few - or not, you´re strictly advised to stay off them: there´s nothing we
XC skiers hate more than those idiots who run on the tracks:-)

Just stick to the cycle/pedestrian paths along the roads!

Quoted message said:

Do you think you could cope with just one layer over the legs?

Depends. If you have good winter tights, you might cope with only (wind) briefs underneath.

BTW you might be able to snap up a bargain while you´re there - or purchase that Scandinavian
bestseller, the Dobsom r90 running suit http::/www.dobsom.se :-)

Quoted message said:

Perhaps I should take my ordinary road shoes and look for gritted roads or swept pavements.

A swept pavement without grit strewn on it is a huge danger sign: one can never tell when there´ll
be an icy spot!

Anders