Steel Road Frames?

schmuzzy said:

but i rebuilt my old 1986 Raleigh

and by damn, even with the extra 4-5 lbs... it is still a VERY capable machine.

the ONLY negatives were- the older geometry (easily fixed w/ modern fork, stem, etc

ha, good point. One of my bikes is a 1988 531c Raleigh, and it always had a bit of a shimmy riding no hands over ~40kmh, but I've almost transformed the bike by putting a (cheap) Roselli carbon/alu fork on it!

Also, my Raleigh frame (no forks, no bolts...totally bare) weighs 1865g, which is only 195g more than my steel Cervelo (1670g), but the Cervelo requires a 27g seat collar, and the Raleighs uses a 6g seat bolt.

i wouldn't mind getting one of these steel Wiliers that the Lampre pros used in the Spring Classics

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/apr06/roubaix06/?id=/tech/2006/features/roubaix_bikes1

Vincent Kluwe said:

Like this one then? Great performer, too! Unhappily too skinny tubes for my size. But very fast and light for the average sized rider.

Ciao Vincent, yes I like the Corum, but if I went that route I would want a Primato... sometimes you have to let your heart over-rule reason! 😄

531Aussie said:

i wouldn't mind getting one of these steel Wiliers that the Lampre pros used in the Spring Classics

cyclingnews.comroubaix06Open ↗

Thanks for the link 531aussie, I had not known about Ballan riding a steel frame for the classics. Interesting, and even more interesting to learn that they ride 27mm tubulars @ around 6 bar! :eek:

Powerful Pete said:

Thanks for the link 531aussie, I had not known about Ballan riding a steel frame for the classics.

yeah. I couldn't find the frames anywhere on the Wilier site.

How about Boonen using a steel steerer?!!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/apr06/roubaix06/?id=/tech/2006/features/boonen_time

531Aussie said:

yeah. I couldn't find the frames anywhere on the Wilier site.

How about Boonen using a steel steerer?!!

cyclingnews.comroubaix06Open ↗

I doubt the Wilier bikes are anything beyond one-offs for the pros. How about the weight (8.4 kg!) on Boonen's ride! The weight weenies are gonna have a field day with that one!

Powerful Pete said:

I doubt the Wilier bikes are anything beyond one-offs for the pros. !

Yeah. Probably the only thing 'Wilier' about them is the stickers.

Powerful Pete said:

How about the weight (8.4 kg!) on Boonen's ride! The weight weenies are gonna have a field day with that one!

Too right!! I've been shoving the weights of some of these bikes up the weight weenies for a while.

8.1kg isn't exactly a feather: http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2006/probikes/?id=milram_colnago_becke

and 7.89 kg for a Look 585!: http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2006/probikes/?id=ca_look_raisin

And check out the weights of these track bikes!!

Damian Zielinski's Isaac.............16.3 lbs (7.42 kg)
Clara Sanchez' Look.................17 lb (7.70 kg)
Roberto Chiappa's Pinarello........17.3 lb (7.81 kg)
Maximilian Levy's FES...............17.4 lb (7.90 kg)
Theo Bos' Koga/BT...................17.5 lb (7.96 kg)
Dutch team pursuit Koga/BT......17.8 lb (8.10 kg)
Stefan Nimke's FES..................17.9 lb (8.11 kg)
Tuen Mulder's Koga/BT.............18.5 lb (8.38 kg)
Dutch team pursuit Koga/BT......19.2 lb (8.70 kg)
Dutch team pursuit Koga/BT......19.4 lb (8.80 kg)
Dutch team pursuit Koga/BT......20.7 lb (9.40 kg)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/track/2006/apr06/wtc06/tech/?id=/tech/2006/features/track_worlds_bikes[/QUOTE]

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=193854

I personally prefer steel frames to those made from any other material, regardless of the properties they're supposed to have.

there is a frame out there for you..just might take some time and effort to find it in a world where everyone's aluminum-crazy.

As for Steel being heavier than the others...yeah, I guess so. Al has a lower atomic weight than Fe, so there is actual science behind that statement.

But how much heavier will the WHOLE bike be? Twice? 30%? 10%? I have ridden both, and never have I thought "light as a cloud" when on an Aluminum frame. Light, yeah, but nothing to get worked up about. And as one hard core rider said "If you really want to save on weight, lay off the cheesecake!"

Steel to me rides better and is WAY easier to fix if something gets mangled. No small advantage if you're in the middle of nowhere and require some repair or welding.

geardad

geoffs said:

Where in Aus are you?
In Victoria, there is Baum at www.jbcycles.com.au
In Sydney theres Hillbrick and John Bosevski at Taren Point which you can get through Steve Hogg at Pedal Pushers, Randwick. John does the best work but there may be a long wait.

I prefer steel also but that's because I'm 90+kgs and break things.

Cheers

Geoff

I read in CYCLING AUSTRALIA magazine that Baum is one of the few manufacturers to have built a frame out of Reynolds 973 - builds to similar weights as a lightweight Al frame, and has a stainless finish. Baum Ti or Baum 973 frame - could be a tough choice, if I ever win the lottery, that is. The current edition of that

i've been riding and racing since 1972.

today, i took my first ride on a titanium/carbon fork litespeed...my first 'modern era' road bike. it's lighter, but...

let me tell you what i've owned and ridden.

a peogeot made from 531 record (thinwall) tubing. so light it required knees to the top tube to descend...a schwinn paramount 531i had custom built in 1974...two de rosa's...three colnagos including a master and a profile cx (dent-formed columbus down and top tubes)...four pinarello's, including a cheap sl treviso that refuses to die and a wonderful montello slx...two cinelli's...a masi gran criterium...a flotilla of gardin's out of canada (i used to sell them), fantastic road racing machines. my track bike is still a gardin slx custom built by georgio ferrari.)...a cheap raleigh gran sport with 531 main tubes...a bottechia so nicely silver brazed you could swear it was built for carnielli, himself!...a cinelli with magic built into the ride...

all these and more i've had the pleasure of pounding out the miles on!

there is NO ride like steel!

the bike is simply 'alive' and yet...if properly built and sized...it just disappears underneath the rider!

my new litespeed is what i call a 'thudder'. all the carbon, aluminum and ti frames i've ridden are 'dead'. sure, they are feather light and responsive. they are also just plain...dead! what good is to "soak up all the bumps" if you can't feel the road beneath you?

try a GOOD steel frame and discover the feel and liveliness you have been missing.

also...

i love the way some riders brag about their full-carbon bike being 3 pounds lighter than my old pinarello...when they are fully 20 pounds overweight!

as the gentleman above said, ride whatever material makes you happy, but please do try a good steel frameset someday. and i might add that at least one of your road bikes be equipped with sewups. again, the physical link to the road makes the machine an invisible extension of the body.

regards,
campybob

CAMPYBOB said:

i've been riding and racing since 1972.

today, i took my first ride on a titanium/carbon fork litespeed...my first 'modern era' road bike. it's lighter, but...

let me tell you what i've owned and ridden.

a peogeot made from 531 record (thinwall) tubing. so light it required knees to the top tube to descend...a schwinn paramount 531i had custom built in 1974...two de rosa's...three colnagos including a master and a profile cx (dent-formed columbus down and top tubes)...four pinarello's, including a cheap sl treviso that refuses to die and a wonderful montello slx...two cinelli's...a masi gran criterium...a flotilla of gardin's out of canada (i used to sell them), fantastic road racing machines. my track bike is still a gardin slx custom built by georgio ferrari.)...a cheap raleigh gran sport with 531 main tubes...a bottechia so nicely silver brazed you could swear it was built for carnielli, himself!...a cinelli with magic built into the ride...

all these and more i've had the pleasure of pounding out the miles on!

there is NO ride like steel!

the bike is simply 'alive' and yet...if properly built and sized...it just disappears underneath the rider!

my new litespeed is what i call a 'thudder'. all the carbon, aluminum and ti frames i've ridden are 'dead'. sure, they are feather light and responsive. they are also just plain...dead! what good is to "soak up all the bumps" if you can't feel the road beneath you?

try a GOOD steel frame and discover the feel and liveliness you have been missing.

also...

i love the way some riders brag about their full-carbon bike being 3 pounds lighter than my old pinarello...when they are fully 20 pounds overweight!

as the gentleman above said, ride whatever material makes you happy, but please do try a good steel frameset someday. and i might add that at least one of your road bikes be equipped with sewups. again, the physical link to the road makes the machine an invisible extension of the body.

regards,
campybob

That's quite a list, I'm envious to say the least. I have a '91 Pinarello Veneto (Oria steel tubing, lugged frame), that is still an absolute joy to ride. And there's still not a spot of rust on it or any signs that it can't go another 15 years. People who only ride aluminum or carbon wouldn't understand, but the bike just sings beneath your feet.

People who only ride aluminum or carbon wouldn't understand, but the bike just sings beneath your feet.

ah! and what a song it is...an italian rock opera, perhaps?

years and years ago an expirienced racer told me that the best bikes are the ones that 'disappear' underneath you.

after riding that made-to-measure paramount (all of $660 for a full campy record machine WITH a campy tool set in 1974!!!) i discovered what he was talking about.

set-up, geometry and size has a lot to do with what a frame does for YOU, but i'm firmly convinced that fine alloy steel can become one with human flesh!

i forgot to mention my 1975 w.f. holdsworthy 531 that i toured europe on and a gardin i still own that was actually built by a 'name' italian company. unfortunately, that 'name' escapes me right now! darn dead brain cells! i think fondriest used to ride them...what WAS their name!

whatever the name, that columbus sl tubing puts springs in your shoes on the pedal up-stroke!

regards and good riding to you,
campybob

CAMPYBOB said:

I love the way some riders brag about their full-carbon bike being 3 pounds lighter than my old pinarello...when they are fully 20 pounds overweight!

Love that phrase!! But don't ignore, Campybob, that a belly is not just a belly. It works more like a compressor on the very last 100 miles of their daily ride!!!

Just to give you one more toy to play about and to throw something new into the arena:
vintage-trek.comvintage-trek.comOpen ↗

Never seen such a lovingly made fan site on a brand before. Just a joy to browse through for hours on end.
Regards,
Vincent

P.S.: Perhaps I should lose some words about fine tuning your bike for Campybob points out to one of the most important aspects in sport as such. Our personal condition that is! Most people are carrying around overweight, having their difficulties to even keep close to average 'normal weight', which is your size in centimeters minus 100. Following that line a person of 190 cm length should have a weight of 90 kg, which is 198 lb. Speaking about average people in the street, not about athletes. Following modern guidelines even normal weight would be too much for health. Incorporating a new term into medical recommendations, dieticians nowadays speak about 'optimum weight', which is another 10% less. Take your 198 lb guy, he shouldn't put more than 81 kg or 180 lb on his scales ideally. But even that is too much for a practicing athlete. He should weigh no more than another 5% less, which makes 77 kg or 170 lb max! So ask your scales, how much frequency you have left for finetuning your bike!! Saying that we have to take one medical recommendation into account: Waying less then optimum weight shortens life! That's why I am trying to keep at least close to optimum weight, which is not easy mid season. In winter time I am happy to put some kilos on, what puts me slighty above that magic border. I hope, all that will help!

Last week, I was shopping around at a Trek dealer, and we got to reminiscing about the old (steel) days of bikes.

I remarked about the time when Steel was *the* material, and Aluminum and others were newcomers..rare and expensive.

He told me the tipping point was when the "developing world" finally could produce quality aluminum at much cheaper prices. "That's when everybody went Aluminum..when they could get bikes made much cheaper overseas."

A lightbulb went off, as this story is quite similar to that of many other industries. Companies offshore manufacturing and services not because the offshored product or service gets better. But because it's CHEAPER!

I personally have never fallen for the malarkey about Al bikes being "way lighter" than steel. Some here have pointed out that many steel bikes are lighter than their Al-based rivals. But we've all seen companies make complete fools out of themselves in pursuit of lower and lower overhead, even at the expense of providing real value to their customers.

"It's all about the money," as the man once said.

I for one have refused to play their game; I recently bought a '95-vintage steel-frame trek, sans all the fancy-schmancy "tech" you get with today's bikes, paid far less for it, and am far more happy, knowing that if I crash, my old bike is far more easily fixed.

geardad

geardad said:

I remarked about the time when Steel was *the* material, and Aluminum and others were newcomers..rare and expensive.

I personally have never fallen for the malarkey about Al bikes being "way lighter" than steel. Some here have pointed out that many steel bikes are lighter than their Al-based rivals.

I mostly agree with you because my steel bikes are by far my favourites (tonight I rode my favourite old 531, and I forgot how good it was), but alu does have it's place: riding in the rain. 🙂 There's nothing like sloshing around in the wet on a cheap alu bike, knowing you don't have to clean and dry it when you get home. 🙂 It's also good for racers who want a good stiffness to weight ratio.

The bike shop guy forgot the conspiracy theory that the whole alu thing only came about because there was a downturn in aircraft manufacturing, therefore, there was bucket-loads a cheap alu for sale. 🙂

I actually think that -- apart from the fact that manufacturing became dirt cheap -- alu became so popular because racing riders wanted the stiffness with reasonalbe weight, and it was only a matter of time before it became comfortable enough. Columbus started making stiffer steels in the late 70s, with stuff like SLX, but as the steels got stiffer, they got heavier (Max, ELos, TSX, SP, etc). All the older Columbus frames I've weighed have been heavier than 531, but the Columbus frames were preferred for the rigidity. Man, some of those 80s Columbus frames are complete bricks!! Then they [censored] of the lugs to save weight......blah, blah, blah

Also, I've weighed stacks of frames, and while they're probably out there, I've never weighed a steel frame that was under 1600g, but I've weighed several alu under 1400g, but as you said, that's not "way lighter".
Anyway, just nitpicking. 🙂

531Aussie said:

The bike shop guy forgot the conspiracy theory that the whole alu thing only came about because there was a downturn in aircraft manufacturing, therefore, there was bucket-loads a cheap alu for sale. 🙂

And for at least the next five years or so, we're going to be seeing the exact opposite with carbon fiber. It takes more carbon to build 3 A380's than the entire sporting goods industry uses in a year. And Airbus has orders for 150.

artmichalek said:

And for at least the next five years or so, we're going to be seeing the exact opposite with carbon fiber. It takes more carbon to build 3 A380's than the entire sporting goods industry uses in a year. And Airbus has orders for 150.

maybe that's why a Time VXRS frame-set retails down here for $8000!!! :p

"Prices range from $3,999 for the VX Edge to $7,999 for the VXRS."
http://www.renegadecycles.com.au/30page5.html

WOAH!! On special for $6900!! Frame-set only!!!
http://www.webcycle.com.au/details.php?ID=20

in my opnion, that's so rediculous I can't put it into words. I can't help but think of Ballan and Boonen riding in the same break in the Paris-Roubaix -- Ballan on his steel Wilier and Boonen on his VXRS -- and they were both going the same speed, and both got stuck at the railway crossing at the same time etc, etc...🙂

Hi,
I wanted to post something about steel frames and found this thread knocking about, so here goes.
I've been riding a 1998 Olmo with Aelle tubing for a few years now and I think it's time I can afford a new frame.
There's not a whole lot wrong with my current one, but it feels a little heavy on the steeper climbs and its handling feels a little bit sluggish. Also, I just feel like treating myself.
So, I want to stick with steel and Olmo do a nice looking frame in Dedacciai Sat 14.5. I can get a good deal ordering from a supplier in Italy (no tax/duty worries either) and by sticking with Olmo I know what I'm getting in terms of sizing.
So, to get to the point, how different will it feel to ride a lighter, more modern steel compared what I've been used to? Will it really feel much different? Is this is a stupid question? 😉
I have some good components on my current frame (new Campag wheels, new compact chainset and front deraileur) which I'll be moving to the new frame, so that much will stay the same.
By the way, don't bother trying to talk me out of going with steel again.... one of my friends has already tried and it doesn't work.

Thanks,
Tonto.

Hi Tonto,
before you process ordering, have a look for De Rosa Corum (TIG welded) and Basso Viper (fillet brazed), both frames featuring the most modern development in steel tubing and both lighter than your Olmo!

To comment your question on steel as such: you will find your modern steel frame much closer to any modern aluminum frame than all you know about your classic lugged steel frame from the early 90s. Even De Rosa's lugged Neo Primato would give you strongly unknown feelings due to stronger tube diameters, butted, thinner and lighter tubes and modern frame geometry as 1'' or even 1 1/8'' ahead and so on. All that makes modern steel frames lighter, stiffer and ... well ... faster as well. But still it's steel and rides like steel.

All I want to say is, stick to your masterplan, but look how beautiful the daughters of different mothers are before you buy.

Tonto said:

I've been riding a 1998 Olmo with Aelle tubing for a few years now and I think it's time I can afford a new frame.

So, to get to the point, how different will it feel to ride a lighter, more modern steel compared what I've been used to? Will it really feel much different? Is this is a stupid question? 😉

did you see my post (#9) on page one? There's heaps of links to steel frames.

I went through a similar thing a few years ago. I was riding my 531 for ever, then we started hearing how the heat-treated new steels were supposed to be so superior, such as Columbus Genius, then Nemo, then Reynolds 853, then Foco and Ultrafoco, so I gave up and bought one. I got the Ultrafoco Cervelo, and while it's fantastic, it doesn't totally blow my 531 off the boards. Much of the improvement with the Cervelo was with the better fork and new wheels, even though the wheels are just good old Ultegra/Mavics.

Having said that, Aelle is a complete brick (🙂), and, in my opinion, a much inferior tube-set to 531. Aelle ranks way done on the old Columbus steel: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bobequus/images/bikepictures/Columbus-tubes.jpg So, I'm guessing there'd be a bigger jump for you, going from Aelle to Spirit or EOM16.5, or similar.

Also, as far as other materials go, I'm 39, and an 80s guy, so I heard all the anti-aluminium stuff in the early days, and was against it as much as anyone, but when I saw my favourite steel frame starting to rust, I decided to get a cheap alu frame just for wet days. I've since had 7!! 🙂 A couple have been as smooth as butter, a couple were too stiff and horrible, and the rest were ok with a good fork. Aluminium is good for keeping your steel rust free!