started training with power

All true and agreeable points Swampy.

As far as that PT, I'm a frequent flyer with Competitive Cyclist, and saw that deal. It's a nice deal, but if I'm getting a PT, I'll get it with a nice wheelset, like a Williams System30 and a wireless PT hub. Since I'm already looking for some wheels, I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Though I would much rather get a crankset PM like Q or SRM, and still looking around.

On the turns, I would definitely rather be in or towards the front. Especially in a Cat5, there's tons of mess goin on in the back.

If you go the PT route I would recommend for your first PT just getting a training wheel. Right now I have 6 sets of road wheels and dont race with my PT. It is really not worth the added weight and the numbers you get from a race are cool to look at but no where near as valuable as a PT in training. Building a PT into a race wheel means you cant train on it. My training wheels get pretty beat up. Wireless is cool but unless you are using the ANT+ and tossing it into a garmin or something else what are you really gaining? If you have multiple bikes it might be a different story however the cradles are pretty cheap as well for wired PT's.

As far as turns, it really all depends on the course. It is way to hard to make generalizations like "always stay inside" and what not. There is a bit of luck with racing and it is more important to follow the right wheels through the lines. Just my two sense.

-swim bike
@NorthernEnduru
NorthernEnduranceCoaching.com

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by gman0482 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

All true and agreeable points Swampy.

As far as that PT, I'm a frequent flyer with Competitive Cyclist, and saw that deal. It's a nice deal, but if I'm getting a PT, I'll get it with a nice wheelset, like a Williams System30 and a wireless PT hub. Since I'm already looking for some wheels, I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Though I would much rather get a crankset PM like Q or SRM, and still looking around.

On the turns, I would definitely rather be in or towards the front. Especially in a Cat5, there's tons of mess goin on in the back.

I'd take a DT or Velocity rim over the Williams any day of the week. I'd even take a Mavic Open Pro, or whatever they're called these days" over the Williams. I've been toying with changing the Velocity Aerohead O/C on the PT wheel with their new A23. I had a chance to ride on the HED Ardennes and the wider rim really does let the clincher feel more like a tubular... silly levels of grip in the corners with a chili compound Conti GP, even better than the same 23mm Conti on a 19mm rim.

The whole cranks based or hub based power meter is a PITA. You'll end up with more than one bike, which makes the crank systems a PITA... and you'll invariably end up with many pairs of wheels. So, d'ya want a PT in a set of training wheels, road racing/hilly TT wheels and a PT disk like the Zipp Sub9. Ker-ching.

It doesn't matter what Category you're in - there's tons of mess going on in the back.

Been working out hard for the last couple of weeks or so.
I try to do the 2x20's at least once a week and on weeks I feel good, up to 3x.
Below is this morning's workout. Am I going too hard?
I've noticed that I spend a bit of time in the VO2 range.
My FTP is approximately 203 watts, but it's probably climbed by now.
My workout is usually 2x20 with 5 min rest between. 5 min warmup. All done on the trainer.
And I feel tired mentally all the time. The first 20min interval is always hard. The second one a little bit better.
But overall it's sucky. I do however love riding tempo.

Monday January 24, 2011, 6:45 AM
Device Type: PowerTap

Totals
Duration:
50:27
Time Riding:
50:09
Distance (miles):
18.4
Work (kJ):
549
Elevation Gain (feet):
0
Averages
Speed (mph):
22.0
Power (watts):
182
Heart Rate (bpm):
0
Cadence (rpm):
77
Metrics*
xPower (watts):
193
Relative Intensity:
0.965
BikeScoreâ„¢:
78
Daniels Points:
73
Daniels EqP (watts):
193
TRIMP Points:
0
Aerobic Decoupling (%):
0.00
Power Zones
Critical Power: 200
Zone
Description
Low
High
Time
Z1
Active Recovery
0
110
07:03
Z2
Endurance
110
150
03:17
Z3
Tempo
150
180
00:30
Z4
Threshold
180
210
27:28
Z5
VO2Max
210
240
11:53
Z6
Anaerobic
240
300
00:15
Intervals

Interval Name
Duration
Distance (miles)
Work (kJ)
Average Power (watts)
xPower (watts)
Max Power (watts)
Average Heart Rate (bpm)
95% Heartrate (bpm)
Average Cadence (rpm)
Average Speed (mph)
Peak 5s (245 watts)
00:05
0.0
1
245
77
299
0
0
78
22.4
Peak 10s (223 watts)
00:10
0.1
2
223
106
248
0
0
82
23.4
Peak 20s (217 watts)
00:20
0.1
4
217
145
233
0
0
79
23.6
Peak 30s (217 watts)
00:30
0.2
7
217
167
234
0
0
80
23.7
Peak 1min (215 watts)
01:00
0.4
13
214
192
234
0
0
80
23.5
Peak 2min (213 watts)
02:01
0.8
26
213
202
248
0
0
79
23.5
Peak 5min (211 watts)
05:02
2.0
64
211
207
248
0
0
79
23.4
Peak 10min (209 watts)
10:02
3.9
126
209
207
248
0
0
79
23.3
Peak 20min (207 watts)
20:02
7.9
249
207
206
257
0
0
79
23.7
Peak 30min (189 watts)
30:02
11.1
340
189
197
257
0
0
78
22.3

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Mac_Biker [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG] Am I going too hard? ....

I've noticed that I spend a bit of time in the VO2 range.
My FTP is approximately 203 watts, but it's probably climbed by now....
And I feel tired mentally all the time.

If you struggle to complete the workout or are so fried mentally or physically that you have to skip subsequent workouts then you're going too hard. Feeling tired mentally all the time is a big warning sign that you might be going a bit too hard or perhaps a bit too many times per week for your current fitness level. Remember endurance fitness takes time and no single workout makes you fit so you've got to be able to sustain your program for weeks, months perhaps years to see real gains. It's natural to dig deep holes from time to time and then come up for air but if you're feeling mentally tired 'all the time' that's not good.

In terms of the individual efforts, it's pretty normal to rack up some time at L5 power levels during a typical Threshold interval session as it's tough to keep your power in a very narrow range and 20 minutes that average to L4 typically includes some time above and below that level. That in itself is not a problem if you're completing the individual efforts and the overall session.

Also remember that the entire point of this work is to raise your FTP so over time it's normal for your power levels to rise. If you see the percentage of accumulated L5 time that you get during an L4 session noticeably rising but you're still completing the individual efforts and the sessions then it's a clue that your FTP could be moving up. So the power numbers you posted and in particular the way that 5 through 20 minute power is in a pretty tight range suggest you're pacing the efforts pretty well.

It's the longer term implications of being mentally or physically tired and perhaps starting to dread the L4 days that I'd worry about. That could mean fewer pure L4 sessions per week or perhaps running mid to low L4 instead of running them right up to your FTP. Threshold efforts at 91-95% of FTP give you the vast majority of the benefits of intervals ridden at 100% of FTP but they're a lot easier to finish day in and day out. You just don't need to ride all of your L4 efforts right up to or beyond your FTP and trying to do that or chasing records every time you do Threshold work often leads folks down a burnout path.

Other options to manage workload and to avoid burnout are more rest days per week or swapping a Tempo ride for a high L2 ride or other approaches to managing your overall workload so that you can go sufficiently hard on the hard days, accumulate additional valuable mid level training on the moderate days and to have the overall plan be sustainable enough that you can stay on it and build on it for many months. There are a lot of different approaches to load management but keep an eye on the big picture goals.

Good luck,
-Dave

Thanks for the reply Dave.
Maybe I'm trying to build my FTP too quickly.
I try to schedule in my workouts on days that I have time.
Usually that'll be Thursday,Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
I was doing 2x20 on Thursday AND Friday.
I read somewhere in the Time Cruched Cyclist book, that workouts on consecutive days were okay to do.
I'd be so fried that on Saturday I would do an endurance ride, and on Sunday still be tired and maybe do a TEMPO.

And then I wouldn't want to ride my bike again until Wednesday/Thursday.
This week I was trying something different.

Monday - 2x20
Tuesday - Off Completely
Wednesday - 2x20
Thursday - Off Completely
Friday - 2x20
Saturday - Up in the air
Sunday - Up in the air

My 20 minute FTP test several weeks ago yielded a 20min power of 210 watts. Now I'm doing my 2x20s at 207. Does this mean my FTP has raised? Or am I going just too hard?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Mac_Biker [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

...Maybe I'm trying to build my FTP too quickly.

Sorta seems that way to me. Consecutive L4 days aren't necessarily bad but four in a row is pushing it pretty far. Your candidate program is pretty much ATATT (All Threshold, All The Time) and some folks really like that approach but I'd recommend a better blend of L4 and Tempo work typically using a three day midweek block and then longer rides on the weekends. It generally gives you a bit more overall training load and better long term progress than pushing L4 all the time or resting.

In terms of FTP building and quickness. The body will only respond and adapt to training so rapidly. Working harder doesn't make your cells regenerate any faster and the typical 6 weeks to adapt to an incremental increase in training load doesn't change much if you push yourself harder all the time. Yeah you might speed things up a bit by doing three Threshold days during your weekdays but I suspect you'd end up sacrificing ride quality on the weekends as a result and still your body will only respond so quickly. So instead of thinking 'harder is faster' in terms of adaptation it sometimes helps to think in terms of the body slowly but steadily adapting to the workload and the goal is to continually stress it so that there's a reason to keep adapting and to keep making progress. From that standpoint that third midweek L4 session might not be the best approach.

FWIW, when I've done three L4 sessions a week during winter builds I've typically done something like:

Mon: rest
Tues: L4 (2x20, 3x20, 2x30, 1x60 or something along those lines)
Wed: L3 (a couple hours or more if I have the time, 90 minutes is typical if stuck on the trainer)
Thurs: L4
Fri: rest or soft SST day (low Tempo, TSS around half my current CTL, easy day to bounce back from)
Sat: Longer ride L2+/L3 (often a team ride so perhaps some harder bits)
Sun: L4 possibly stretched a bit so maybe 2x20 or 3x20 but with some extra riding to and from the workout to get take advantage of longer weekend riding and CTL building

I've managed plans like that for weeks or months during build cycles and managed to balance specific intensity goals, CTL building goals and overall freshness goals for the harder days. Lately I've been doing a 1x60 L4 workout on Tuesdays fairly often and then I typically follow it up with another 2x20 L4 session on Wednesday. Sounds crazy but for some reason the Wed. 2x20 seems really easy after the full hour at Threshold on Tuesday and I've hit some of my best power numbers following that pattern. In that case Thursday is definitely Tempo.

YMMV,
-Dave