Stainless steel track frame?

"Steve Karpik" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A cyclist that I coach rides a stainless steel track frame. It's
unpainted -- sort of looks like the early Ti bikes. I have to say that
I've never seen a stainless frame before. Anyone have any idea whether
stainless steel is a good material for frames? Am I right in thinking
that not too many bikes are made out of stainless steel?

My Peugeot PX10 has a decal that says "INOXYDABLE" - French for Stainless
Steel.

Whether it is actually SS, or whether that applies to all 531, I don't know.
I don't recall ever seeing any rust near paint chips, though.

Steve Karpik said:

A cyclist that I coach rides a stainless steel track frame. It's
unpainted -- sort of looks like the early Ti bikes. I have to say that
I've never seen a stainless frame before. Anyone have any idea whether
stainless steel is a good material for frames? Am I right in thinking
that not too many bikes are made out of stainless steel?

Hi Steve,

Columbus has a stainless tubeset, but it came on the scene too late to
really catch on when Ti and Alu were already established. Other
companies probably have done stainless tubesets as well.

Polished stainless steel accents are also a new fad with a lot of
custom builders like Vanilla lately.

-Amit

Steve Karpik said:

A cyclist that I coach rides a stainless steel track frame. It's
unpainted -- sort of looks like the early Ti bikes. I have to say
that I've never seen a stainless frame before. Anyone have any idea
whether stainless steel is a good material for frames?

Heavy
--
Phil Lee, Squid

And hard to weld.

"Phil Lee, Squid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Karpik said:

A cyclist that I coach rides a stainless steel track frame. It's
unpainted -- sort of looks like the early Ti bikes. I have to say
that I've never seen a stainless frame before. Anyone have any idea
whether stainless steel is a good material for frames?

Heavy
--
Phil Lee, Squid

Quoted message said:

...
Polished stainless steel accents are also a new fad with a lot of
custom builders like Vanilla lately.

Or lugs on a Waterford:
<http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/tech/stainlesslugs.php>.

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Impact is not a synonym of affect or effect

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:02:53 GMT, "Chris" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

And hard to weld.

"Phil Lee, Squid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Karpik said:

A cyclist that I coach rides a stainless steel track frame. It's
unpainted -- sort of looks like the early Ti bikes. I have to say
that I've never seen a stainless frame before. Anyone have any idea
whether stainless steel is a good material for frames?

Heavy
--

New Reynolds 953 is neither heavy nor hard to weld, but it's not
cheap. For the "steel is real" crowd, it looks nice if you want a
$2000 custom frame weighing around 1200g, but weight is not a big
issue with a track frame so 853 might be a better bet as it's half the
price and available in tube diameters and wall thicknesses appropriate
to making a very stiff 1800g track iron.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Kinky Cowboy said:

New Reynolds 953 is neither heavy nor hard to weld, but it's not
cheap. For the "steel is real" crowd, it looks nice if you want a
$2000 custom frame weighing around 1200g

The problem with Reynolds 953 is when it's half-baked ... *grin*.

Seriously, does anyone object to having their frame builder "bake"
their frames to gain strength ?? Where I come from we braze frames
and bake muffins. If we are now baking frames, are we Brazing muffins
these days?? Baking - it's not just for muffins ANY MORE ...

I can see it now. Reynolds 1086 framesets. Must boil in oil for 2
hours for it to gain strength. Reynolds 1197 frame tubing (made in
Italy). Must rub it copiously with olive oil for it to gain
strength. I shudder to think about Reynolds 1299 tubing ... probably
uses suntour microlite freewheels, sheldon's microdrive drivetrain,
and the tubes must be MICROWAVED for 1/2 hour on medium (turning
frequently) before ready for use ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Hank Wirtz said:

"Steve Karpik" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A cyclist that I coach rides a stainless steel track frame. It's
unpainted -- sort of looks like the early Ti bikes. I have to say that
I've never seen a stainless frame before. Anyone have any idea whether
stainless steel is a good material for frames? Am I right in thinking
that not too many bikes are made out of stainless steel?

My Peugeot PX10 has a decal that says "INOXYDABLE" - French for Stainless
Steel.

Whether it is actually SS, or whether that applies to all 531, I don't know.
I don't recall ever seeing any rust near paint chips, though.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Peugeot/PX10_history.htm

"Inoxydable" refers to some kind of anti-rust treatment,
not stainless. No 531 steel is stainless steel. 531 is
a manganese-molybdenum alloy; stainless steels
generally contain a lot of chromium (much more than
typical bicycle CrMo) and a fairly large proportion of nickel.

Stainless steel is generally somewhat harder to work
and join than non-stainless, but one can apparently make
a perfectly good bicycle out of it, if you accept the tradeoffs.

On 11 Aug 2006 18:09:23 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

New Reynolds 953 is neither heavy nor hard to weld, but it's not
cheap. For the "steel is real" crowd, it looks nice if you want a
$2000 custom frame weighing around 1200g

The problem with Reynolds 953 is when it's half-baked ... *grin*.

Seriously, does anyone object to having their frame builder "bake"
their frames to gain strength ?? Where I come from we braze frames
and bake muffins. If we are now baking frames, are we Brazing muffins
these days?? Baking - it's not just for muffins ANY MORE ...

Post-weld heat treatment may be new for steel bicycle frames, but it's
already done to Easton Scandium, for example, like this

"• Step 1: Allow oven temperature to reach 275° F
+/- 5° F
• Step 2: Insert frame for 5 hours +/- 5 minutes at
275° F +/- 5° F
• Step 3: Change oven temperature to 300° F +/- 5°
F. Note: Oven must ramp to 300° F in no more
than 10 minutes.
• Step 4: 2 hours +/- 5 minutes at 300° F +/- 5°.
• Step 5: Remove frame from oven and allow to
cool to ambient without fan assist."

That's a bit more complicated than baking muffins or 953,

"Frame Aged at 950F (510 C) for 4 hours at temperature, air cooled."

But frame builders who would rather spend their money on cutters than
ovens can get it pretreated anyway

"Tubes can be supplied ready aged, so frame builders can just
fabricate the frames, but assume
mitre and cutting could be slow"

_Don't_ confuse muffins with 953! Your frame won't achieve optimum
strength, and 4 hours at 950F will leave your muffins looking like
carbon fibre, but without the strength :-)

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Kinky Cowboy said:

On 11 Aug 2006 18:09:23 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

New Reynolds 953 is neither heavy nor hard to weld, but it's not
cheap. For the "steel is real" crowd, it looks nice if you want a
$2000 custom frame weighing around 1200g

The problem with Reynolds 953 is when it's half-baked ... *grin*.

Seriously, does anyone object to having their frame builder "bake"
their frames to gain strength ?? Where I come from we braze frames
and bake muffins. If we are now baking frames, are we Brazing muffins
these days?? Baking - it's not just for muffins ANY MORE ...

Post-weld heat treatment may be new for steel bicycle frames, but it's
already done to Easton Scandium, for example, like this

"· Step 1: Allow oven temperature to reach 275° F
+/- 5° F
· Step 2: Insert frame for 5 hours +/- 5 minutes at
275° F +/- 5° F
· Step 3: Change oven temperature to 300° F +/- 5°
F. Note: Oven must ramp to 300° F in no more
than 10 minutes.
· Step 4: 2 hours +/- 5 minutes at 300° F +/- 5°.
· Step 5: Remove frame from oven and allow to
cool to ambient without fan assist."

Same for any decent aluminum frame..most all are heat treated, not just
'scamdium'..remember, 'scamdium' frames are aluminum with a little bit
of 'dirt'(scandium) in them...

Quoted message said:

That's a bit more complicated than baking muffins or 953,

"Frame Aged at 950F (510 C) for 4 hours at temperature, air cooled."

But frame builders who would rather spend their money on cutters than
ovens can get it pretreated anyway

"Tubes can be supplied ready aged, so frame builders can just
fabricate the frames, but assume
mitre and cutting could be slow"

_Don't_ confuse muffins with 953! Your frame won't achieve optimum
strength, and 4 hours at 950F will leave your muffins looking like
carbon fibre, but without the strength :-)

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Quoted message said:

Steve Karpik said:

A cyclist that I coach rides a stainless steel track frame. It's
unpainted -- sort of looks like the early Ti bikes. I have to say that
I've never seen a stainless frame before. Anyone have any idea whether
stainless steel is a good material for frames? Am I right in thinking
that not too many bikes are made out of stainless steel?

Hi Steve,

Columbus has a stainless tubeset, but it came on the scene too late to
really catch on when Ti and Alu were already established. Other
companies probably have done stainless tubesets as well.

Polished stainless steel accents are also a new fad with a lot of
custom builders like Vanilla lately.

-Amit

what the man said! good post.

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz said:

"Steve Karpik" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A cyclist that I coach rides a stainless steel track frame. It's
unpainted -- sort of looks like the early Ti bikes. I have to say that
I've never seen a stainless frame before. Anyone have any idea whether
stainless steel is a good material for frames? Am I right in thinking
that not too many bikes are made out of stainless steel?

My Peugeot PX10 has a decal that says "INOXYDABLE" - French for Stainless
Steel.

Whether it is actually SS, or whether that applies to all 531, I don't know.
I don't recall ever seeing any rust near paint chips, though.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Peugeot/PX10_history.htm

"Inoxydable" refers to some kind of anti-rust treatment,
not stainless.

no, it means stainless.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acier_inoxydable

Quoted message said:

No 531 steel is stainless steel. 531 is
a manganese-molybdenum alloy; stainless steels
generally contain a lot of chromium (much more than
typical bicycle CrMo) and a fairly large proportion of nickel.

"18/8" if a common stainless spec and refers to Cr/Ni content.

Quoted message said:

Stainless steel is generally somewhat harder to work
and join than non-stainless,

no. it's just as easy to work as other quality steels, arguably easier
in some respects. joining requires preparation, but is not "hard" in
that you don't need a vacuum chamber, electron beams, lasers etc.

Quoted message said:

but one can apparently make
a perfectly good bicycle out of it, if you accept the tradeoffs.

the only real downsides are cost and a very slightly lower modulus.

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My Peugeot PX10 has a decal that says "INOXYDABLE" - French for Stainless
Steel.

Whether it is actually SS, or whether that applies to all 531, I don't know.
I don't recall ever seeing any rust near paint chips, though.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Peugeot/PX10_history.htm

"Inoxydable" refers to some kind of anti-rust treatment,
not stainless.

no, it means stainless.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acier_inoxydable

Please read the link I gave, which says that PX-10s
carrying that decal were made with some kind of
rustproofing treatment, not stainless steel. Under
other circumstances, I agree that "inoxydable" would
mean stainless, but here it doesn't.

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> My Peugeot PX10 has a decal that says "INOXYDABLE" - French for Stainless
> Steel.
>
> Whether it is actually SS, or whether that applies to all 531, I don't know.
> I don't recall ever seeing any rust near paint chips, though.
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Peugeot/PX10_history.htm

"Inoxydable" refers to some kind of anti-rust treatment,
not stainless.

no, it means stainless.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acier_inoxydable

Please read the link I gave, which says that PX-10s
carrying that decal were made with some kind of
rustproofing treatment, not stainless steel. Under
other circumstances, I agree that "inoxydable" would
mean stainless, but here it doesn't.

why is some [with respect to their enthusiasm and historical efforts]
random, non-tech author of a web site authoritative, but a frame
manufacturer is not??? if the label says stainless, it's stainless -
there's laws on this stuff! and the french aren't exactly charitable to
scammers on this kind of thing.

evidence of corrosion does not mean it's not stainless steel or that
there's "some kind of rustproofing treatment" masquerading as stainless
steel. stainless steels still corrode if there's welding issues,
passivation issues, etc. if you know the grade, quality, history, you
know what's going to happen.

I have a PX-10 and it is indeed Reynolds 531 and not stainless.

However, I believe that there was at least one production bike made of
stainless. I'm working on a vague and distant memory here, but I
believe that in the 1970s there was a Swedish bike called a Crescent
that was made from stainless steel and imported into the USA. Anyone
else remember that one?

colocraig said:

I have a PX-10 and it is indeed Reynolds 531 and not stainless.

is it labeled "inoxydable"?

Quoted message said:

However, I believe that there was at least one production bike made of
stainless. I'm working on a vague and distant memory here, but I
believe that in the 1970s there was a Swedish bike called a Crescent
that was made from stainless steel and imported into the USA. Anyone
else remember that one?

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

Quoted message said:

Post-weld heat treatment may be new for steel bicycle frames, but it's
already done to Easton Scandium, for example, like this

"· Step 1: Allow oven temperature to reach 275° F

etc"

Quoted message said:

Same for any decent aluminum frame..most all are heat treated, not just
'scamdium'..remember, 'scamdium' frames are aluminum with a little bit
of 'dirt'(scandium) in them...

Quoted message said:

I just gave the Easton Scandium details because I had them to hand; as
you say, many aluminium alloys require post weld heat treatment.

I'll leave it to others to judge the "scam" in scandium; some people,
led along by certain less than reputable manufacturers, think scandium
makes an aluminium alloy stronger. Easton make it perfectly clear that
it does no such thing, but can make an already strong alloy weldable.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Kinky Cowboy said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

Post-weld heat treatment may be new for steel bicycle frames, but it's
already done to Easton Scandium, for example, like this

"� Step 1: Allow oven temperature to reach 275� F

etc"

Quoted message said:

Same for any decent aluminum frame..most all are heat treated, not just
'scamdium'..remember, 'scamdium' frames are aluminum with a little bit
of 'dirt'(scandium) in them...

I just gave the Easton Scandium details because I had them to hand; as
you say, many aluminium alloys require post weld heat treatment.

I'll leave it to others to judge the "scam" in scandium; some people,
led along by certain less than reputable manufacturers, think scandium
makes an aluminium alloy stronger. Easton make it perfectly clear that
it does no such thing, but can make an already strong alloy weldable.

good clarification.

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Donald Gillies said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

New Reynolds 953 is neither heavy nor hard to weld, but it's not
cheap. For the "steel is real" crowd, it looks nice if you want a
$2000 custom frame weighing around 1200g

The problem with Reynolds 953 is when it's half-baked ... *grin*.

Seriously, does anyone object to having their frame builder "bake"
their frames to gain strength ??

it's called "heat treatment". a significant proportion of the machinery
on which you depend for your daily existence has been subject to it.
why would you mock what you don't know about or don't understand?

Quoted message said:

Where I come from we braze frames
and bake muffins. If we are now baking frames, are we Brazing muffins
these days?? Baking - it's not just for muffins ANY MORE ...

I can see it now. Reynolds 1086 framesets. Must boil in oil for 2
hours for it to gain strength. Reynolds 1197 frame tubing (made in
Italy). Must rub it copiously with olive oil for it to gain
strength. I shudder to think about Reynolds 1299 tubing ... probably
uses suntour microlite freewheels, sheldon's microdrive drivetrain,
and the tubes must be MICROWAVED for 1/2 hour on medium (turning
frequently) before ready for use ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA