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St. George Marathon Report

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
3 October 2005
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6 October 2005
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Dan Stumpus
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  1. Abstract:
    Perfect day.
    Felt lousy and sore at the 1:38 half.
    Struggled through 20 at 2:32.
    Got mad and ran hard the rest of the way.

    St. George was supposed to be a fast course. It has about 600' of climb,
    and 3200' of descent. It was my first marathon since '86. The last time I
    raced a downhill marathon, in '83, I averaged 5:40/mile from mile 10 to 20.
    So I was hoping to coax the old legs into 7:00 miles. On my long trail runs
    in the hills, I ran a lot of 6:30 - 6:40 downhill miles, so I thought I had
    a shot at it. One key unknown was the surface: I run 90% trails, but I
    hoped that pushing the downhills in training would toughen up my quads for
    the asphalt.

    My younger brother Greg (44) and I planned to take it out in the low 7's and
    see what happened. We jogged 10 minutes and got by the velvet rope into the
    first corral. We opened up with 21:40 at mile 3, which in retrospect was
    pretty quick given that the race started at 5200' (a 20 sec/mile penalty).
    At 5 miles I tried to remember how it felt to run the first 10 miles in a
    marathon. This felt harder than the moderate effort I remembered, so I
    backed off a tad. I let Greg run off ahead.

    At about 8 miles I was taken aback when I was passed by a couple of
    overweight guys and even one woman with some extra avoirdupois. I hit the
    10 in 73 and change, but my quads were already getting sore. I backed off
    and hit the half in 1:38. By now I was very sore, and feeling terrible. I
    could do the math, and the news was that I'd slowed to 8:00 miles -- on a
    downhill course! I had visions of deteriorating to 10 minute miles. I'd
    run long runs after a hard week better than this. Just to make it
    interesting, there were deep rumblings (from a less-comfortable compartment,
    CP) that required urgent attention -- a first for me in dozens of marathons
    and ultras. So I stopped and took care of business which cost me a shade
    over 2 minutes.

    I merged back into the crowd (which had been running about 10 sec/mile
    slower than I) and I struggled to stay with them. I resisted tempting
    thoughts about hanging it up and jogging in to a 3:30.

    I ticked off the miles, getting sorer and sorer. This course was a meat
    grinder. I had envisioned pushing the aerobic pain envelope, not quad pain.
    Finally, I hit 20 at 2:32 and got mad. Mad at my legs, mad at my body for
    letting me down, mad at the overweight guys who'd passed me. I thought "I'm
    going to treat this mile marker as if it were the start of a 10k."

    I started breathing 3-step, cranked up the heartrate to 161 (89% max), and
    put my head down. I started moving through the crowd. Every once in a
    while, someone would challenge me, but no one stuck. Now I felt better,
    despite the pain in every downhill step. At 22 miles, I knew that I could
    do this all the way in. I caught my brother, and we exchanged a quick
    "Hey", but he didn't want to join me. Finally I felt like I was racing, on
    offense. I reached out and slapped dozens of spectators' outstretched
    palms. Their touch energized me.

    By 24 it was getting rough. The wheels were still on, but there were loose
    lug nuts and the differential was making funny noises. It wasn't fun, but I
    could make it. One runner dashed ahead of me, then stopped, then raced
    ahead again. At one aid station he stepped in front of me and stopped dead!
    Strangest thing I've seen in a long time, but I wasn't in a philosophical
    mood. Finally we made the last turn, and the course flattened out for the
    last 3/4 mile. It was *so* tough. Now others were putting on their
    finishing surge, and I struggled to hold on to my pace. At the 26 mile mark
    I kicked it in. 3:17.

    So it was a long day at the office, and a dissapointing time, but I felt
    good about my 6 mile dash at the end. The legspeed ain't there anymore, but
    the mind is still willing. My goal is to get back into 80.5% wava shape, a
    3:00 marathon at my age, but I'm stuck at 72%. There are still a few things
    I can do (speedwork, lose that 10 lbs, run a few more miles). I was
    surprised that my legs were so sore and dead at the half; I expected the
    going to get tough after 18, not 11. Greg finished about 4 minutes back.

    I chatted with three faster runners afterward, and they ran 10-15 minutes
    slower than expected. The race has a lot of sneaky uphills in it, from 25'
    to 400'. The ups were no problem; the downs were the silent killers. Some
    thrive here, but this ain't no gimme. On our trip to the drug store that
    afternoon, we saw three young skinny guys limping out. "Advil?" "You got
    it!".

    The weather was perfect: about 40F at the start, and 60-ish at the finish,
    clear and clean, with some cloud cover in the middle miles. I doffed
    gloves, ski cap and baggy T-shirt over the first 8 miles. Fantastic views
    the whole way, from the crescent moon overseeing the dawn to the sunny
    finish. Hundreds of personal inspirational signs taped to road posts.
    Crowds gathered at all the crossings in the countryside, and the last few
    miles were lined with cheering spectators. The aid stations were spread out
    and well manned with eager volunteers. Very cool polished stone medals.
    Lots of goodies at the end (but no beer -- hey, this is Utah!)

    Lessons learned:

    You can't take it with you (into the future).
    Tapering is overrated.
    Sometimes you have more in you than you think.

    Hydration/nutrition:

    Started with a full 24oz squeeze bottle on a lightweight belt.
    Refilled it w/gatorbarf at miles 7, 13, 19, and drank on the run, ~8oz every
    2 mi.
    Took 1 succeed cap per bottle.
    My gu fell to the floor of the porta-john at 13 and I left it there!

  2. Dan Stumpus said:

    Refilled it w/gatorbarf at miles 7, 13, 19, and drank on the run

    Do you reckon this was behind your mile 13 pitstop?

    A number of "sports nutrition" products, drink (including g'rade) and
    gel (especially Hammer and Cytomax), have some degree of
    disruptive/laxative effect on me. For now I'm sticking with CarbBoom
    gel.

    Sorry and surprised to hear it was such an unexpectedly tough day, Dan.

    Oh, and they may not give you beer at the finish line, but it was in St
    George that I became acquainted with Polygamy Porter. :-)

  3. Quoted message said:

    but I'm stuck at 72%

    nice job dan...and i'll take 72% in a Marathon any day (and kiss the
    ground at the finish!)

    you really feel that way about tapering?....how do you feel you should
    have tapered...and did not? though i briefly "blacked out" after my
    1/2M yesterday (70F 50% humidity)...i only consumed 4 sips of gatorade
    (2 stops of 2 sips).

    apprx 8 oz every 2 miles seems like an awful lot of hydration. you
    stopped off at a porta-john too?....wow....fortunately i've never had
    to do that in a race....

  4. "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Refilled it w/gatorbarf at miles 7, 13, 19, and drank on the run

    Quoted message said:

    Do you reckon this was behind your mile 13 pitstop?

    Nah, 'cause I drink the foul swill at ultras for hours at a time.

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry and surprised to hear it was such an unexpectedly tough day, Dan.

    Thanks, and my condolences to you on your HeadCold/Stitch-in-time Half. I
    predict you'll be fine at da Big One. Resist the temptation to tackle Lance
    in the finishing stretch :-)

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and they may not give you beer at the finish line, but it was in St
    George that I became acquainted with Polygamy Porter. :-)

    Given the high percentage of blondes over there, I went for the Polygamy
    Pilsner. It was scary seeing so many white people in one place!

    -- Dan

  5. Quoted message said:

    Abstract:
    Perfect day.
    Felt lousy and sore at the 1:38 half.
    Struggled through 20 at 2:32.
    Got mad and ran hard the rest of the way.

    St. George was supposed to be a fast course. It has about 600' of
    climb, and 3200' of descent. It was my first marathon since '86. The
    last time I raced a downhill marathon, in '83, I averaged 5:40/mile
    from mile 10 to 20. So I was hoping to coax the old legs into 7:00
    miles. On my long trail runs in the hills, I ran a lot of 6:30 - 6:40
    downhill miles, so I thought I had a shot at it. One key unknown was
    the surface: I run 90% trails, but I hoped that pushing the downhills
    in training would toughen up my quads for the asphalt.

    I guess there really is something to be said for specificity of training.
    However, do you really want to train that much on asphalt? Where I run
    it's probably more suited for St. George training - rolling hills on
    asphalt. Unfortunately I'm training for a trail 50K. Would you like to
    trade running routes for a few months? Nah, I didn't think so. ;-)

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    Lessons learned:

    You can't take it with you (into the future).
    Tapering is overrated.

    It works for me, but then again, I do a real taper. No 14-milers the
    previous Saturday. But then again, it's all relative.

    At any rate, a great finish. I know it's not whay you wanted, but a 72%
    WAVA is something I would cherish. Congrats and thanks for the report.

    --
    Phil M.

    I still think the Western States trail is one of the most beautiful
    places that I have vomited. --Mary Gorski

  6. Quoted message said:

    you really feel that way about tapering?....how do you feel you should
    have tapered...and did not? though i briefly "blacked out" after my
    1/2M yesterday (70F 50% humidity)...i only consumed 4 sips of gatorade
    (2 stops of 2 sips).

    You can run a pretty decent half while being somewhat dehydrated (as
    you've proven). But pushing the 2, 3, and 3:30 mark in a state of
    dehydration will slow you down.

    Quoted message said:

    apprx 8 oz every 2 miles seems like an awful lot of hydration.

    Actually, for Dan this seems like he backed off on the fluids a bit.

    --
    Phil M.

  7. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    but I'm stuck at 72%

    nice job dan...and i'll take 72% in a Marathon any day (and kiss the
    ground at the finish!)

    Well, to put the 80% vs. 72% into age 40 terms, if you knew you had a 2:40
    in you, a 2:59 wouldn't make you want to kiss the ground, even though many
    would kill for a sub 3. Nevertheless, I remain extremely grateful for my
    health and the ability to run at all.

    Quoted message said:

    you really feel that way about tapering?....how do you feel you should
    have tapered...and did not?

    My taper was:
    Sat: 14 brisk
    Sun: 0
    Mon: 6.5 easy, w/3 x 1:30 6:30 pace surges.
    Tue: 6.5 easy
    Wed: 5 easy w/1 mile at 6:45.
    Thu: off
    Fri: 20 min jog (105 pulse)
    Sat: 26.2 Race

    My taper was 34 miles for the last week, as opposed to 74 miles with more
    intensity and a lot more hills. I really have felt better on my Saturday
    runs, strange though it may seem. Nevertheless, I will continue to taper
    for races. I'm always tweaking the taper...

    Quoted message said:

    though i briefly "blacked out" after my

    You might want to do some research on syncope.
    http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/120/12/1008

    I blacked out once stopping suddenly while running, and I now make sure I
    never abruptly stop while running, especially in the finish chute.

    One typical cause is blood pooling in the legs -- the muscles do a lot of
    the work of pumping the blood back up to the heart, and if you suddenly stop
    running while your arteries are wide open, your blood pressure can drop,
    causing a blackout which resolves when you hit the dirt and the blood flow
    normalizes.

    There are many possible causes, though.

    Quoted message said:

    1/2M yesterday (70F 50% humidity)...i only consumed 4 sips of gatorade
    (2 stops of 2 sips).

    You and your blood-and-guts approach might get you in real trouble one day.
    Have you done a weight test to see if you really only need 3oz when running
    13 miles at race pace? :-) You don't need to replace it all, just try and
    keep it within a couple of lbs to get your best performance.

    Your hydration strategy is not advised for a marathon, in terms of health or
    elapsed time...but we've scolded you before, to no avail.

    Quoted message said:

    apprx 8 oz every 2 miles seems like an awful lot of hydration.

    That's 32 oz/hour, and I usually sweat close to 40/hour when racing in mild
    conditions, so I was a bit light at the finish, but not enough to hurt my
    time, I hope. Back in the day I lost 8-10 lbs in a marathon, and I wonder
    what I could have done if I was smarter about hydration/salt.

    Quoted message said:

    you stopped off at a porta-john too?....wow....fortunately i've never had
    to do that in a race....

    Me neither, in ~200 races, until last Saturday...Can I deduct the two
    minutes?

  8. "Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    .... On my long trail runs in the hills, I ran a lot of 6:30 - 6:40
    downhill miles, so I thought I had a shot at it. One key unknown was
    the surface: I run 90% trails, but I hoped that pushing the downhills
    in training would toughen up my quads for the asphalt.

    I guess there really is something to be said for specificity of training.
    However, do you really want to train that much on asphalt? Where I run
    it's probably more suited for St. George training - rolling hills on
    asphalt. Unfortunately I'm training for a trail 50K. Would you like to
    trade running routes for a few months? Nah, I didn't think so. ;-)

    Yeah, more roadwork would have helped a lot, but I just can't get motivated
    to run on asphalt. I'll pass on the trade, if you don't mind :-).

    Quoted message said:

    It works for me, but then again, I do a real taper. No 14-milers the
    previous Saturday. But then again, it's all relative.

    Seems strange, but the 14er was no biggie, and had been preceeded by an
    easier semi-taper couple of days.

    Quoted message said:

    At any rate, a great finish. I know it's not whay you wanted, but a 72%
    WAVA is something I would cherish. .

    I'm grateful that I'm still able to hit 72, but I know I've got some
    untapped potential.

    Quoted message said:

    Congrats and thanks for the report

    Thanks and your welcome...

  9. Dan Stumpus said:

    "Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I guess there really is something to be said for specificity of training.
    However, do you really want to train that much on asphalt? Where I run
    it's probably more suited for St. George training - rolling hills on
    asphalt. Unfortunately I'm training for a trail 50K. Would you like to
    trade running routes for a few months? Nah, I didn't think so. ;-)

    Yeah, more roadwork would have helped a lot, but I just can't get motivated
    to run on asphalt. I'll pass on the trade, if you don't mind :-).

    How 'bout you keep your trails, you give me your dewpoint and I'll toss
    in a couple of crazed red-neck pick-em-up drivers at no cost to you.

    Quoted message said:

    Seems strange, but the 14er was no biggie, and had been preceeded by an
    easier semi-taper couple of days.

    Yeah, I see that now in your post to Lance.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm grateful that I'm still able to hit 72, but I know I've got some
    untapped potential.

    I know you do. But do you want to start pounding your body into the
    asphalt to prove it?

    --
    Phil M.

  10. Dan Stumpus said:

    Abstract:
    Perfect day.
    Felt lousy and sore at the 1:38 half.
    Struggled through 20 at 2:32.
    Got mad and ran hard the rest of the way.

    St. George was supposed to be a fast course. It has about 600' of climb,
    and 3200' of descent.

    ouch - on asphalt, no less. You're a glutton for punishment 😉

    Quoted message said:


    I ticked off the miles, getting sorer and sorer. This course was a meat
    grinder. I had envisioned pushing the aerobic pain envelope, not quad pain.
    Finally, I hit 20 at 2:32 and got mad. Mad at my legs, mad at my body for
    letting me down, mad at the overweight guys who'd passed me. I thought "I'm
    going to treat this mile marker as if it were the start of a 10k."

    Way, to recover and stick it to the course 😉

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    So it was a long day at the office, and a dissapointing time, but I felt
    good about my 6 mile dash at the end.

    How many people could put together a finish like that after your long
    day? Congratulations on pulling it out - maybe not what you wanted, but
    still really good.

    Quoted message said:

    The race has a lot of sneaky uphills in it, from 25'
    to 400'. The ups were no problem; the downs were the silent killers.

    The hills between contour lines are always interesting - up or down.

    Congratulations, Dan, and thanks for the report. Sounds like an
    interesting day. Is this your last dance with asphalt or are you going
    to try to get revenge on it?

    Dot

    --
    "running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
    people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
    about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

  11. "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Congratulations, Dan, and thanks for the report. Sounds like an
    interesting day. Is this your last dance with asphalt or are you going to
    try to get revenge on it?

    I dunno. If I can lose the weight and get my 10k under 39 I'll probably
    give it another go. Are there any flat trail (toepath?) marathons out
    there? Even though I've run many sub 3 marathons, it would be a treat to do
    one over 50...Otherwise, I'll stick to my beloved trail ultras.

    Quoted message said:

    "running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
    people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
    about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

    How's this: "I lost 10 lbs in one day! Ask me how!"

  12. Dan Stumpus said:

    "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Congratulations, Dan, and thanks for the report. Sounds like an
    interesting day. Is this your last dance with asphalt or are you going to
    try to get revenge on it?

    I dunno. If I can lose the weight and get my 10k under 39 I'll probably
    give it another go. Are there any flat trail (toepath?) marathons out
    there? Even though I've run many sub 3 marathons, it would be a treat to do
    one over 50...Otherwise, I'll stick to my beloved trail ultras.

    Besides what Charlie suggested, you might take a look at the San Pablo
    Bay marathon (too late for this year) or Bizz Johnson (if you recover
    really fast) or some others from redwoodtrails. I think I've heard good
    things about this organization, but I can't remember the name of the
    California one that has a reputation for expensive and maybe not well
    operated.
    http://www.redwoodtrails.com/final/calendar.html

    Dot

    --
    "running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
    people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
    about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

  13. Way to go, Dan! Great report, too.

    Quoted message said:

    How's this: "I lost 10 lbs in one day! Ask me how!"

    I actually saw that (except IIRC it was 16 pounds) on the back of a
    T-shirt, for the Badwater or Western States 100, I think.
    --
    Brian P. Baresch
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Professional editing and proofreading

    If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

  14. "Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Abstract:
    Perfect day.
    Felt lousy and sore at the 1:38 half.
    Struggled through 20 at 2:32.
    Got mad and ran hard the rest of the way.

    Good job in that last 10k Dan. You're getting in the habit of passing your
    brother in the end of races! I guess no matter how you slice it roads are
    meatgrinders unless you train on roads. Why are tapers overrated? Going to
    try another one anytime soon?

    -Tony

  15. Congratulations, Dan! Especially for pulling out the effort the
    last six when you were hurting. That takes a lot of guts. I do
    a similar downhiller every year and make sure to do a *lot* of
    downhill, asphalt training. Those quads can really kill you.
    And lots of quad-specific exercises (weight training stuff).
    Though I'm not nearly as talented as you, I'm striving to get
    an above-70 wava some day in marathon. Currently hanging
    about 68%. Sorry about the, er, pit stop, that's abummer and
    nothing you can do about it but stop and take care of business.
    But I really think you'll do much much better in the next one,
    that was a very long gap since the last one and you may just
    need to reremember some of those marathon tricks. NOw go get
    a super massage and rest!!

    Teresa in AZ

    Dan Stumpus said:

    Abstract:
    Perfect day.
    Felt lousy and sore at the 1:38 half.
    Struggled through 20 at 2:32.
    Got mad and ran hard the rest of the way.

    St. George was supposed to be a fast course. It has about 600' of climb,
    and 3200' of descent. It was my first marathon since '86. The last time I
    raced a downhill marathon, in '83, I averaged 5:40/mile from mile 10 to 20.
    So I was hoping to coax the old legs into 7:00 miles. On my long trail runs
    in the hills, I ran a lot of 6:30 - 6:40 downhill miles, so I thought I had
    a shot at it. One key unknown was the surface: I run 90% trails, but I
    hoped that pushing the downhills in training would toughen up my quads for
    the asphalt.

    My younger brother Greg (44) and I planned to take it out in the low 7's and
    see what happened. We jogged 10 minutes and got by the velvet rope into the
    first corral. We opened up with 21:40 at mile 3, which in retrospect was
    pretty quick given that the race started at 5200' (a 20 sec/mile penalty).
    At 5 miles I tried to remember how it felt to run the first 10 miles in a
    marathon. This felt harder than the moderate effort I remembered, so I
    backed off a tad. I let Greg run off ahead.

    At about 8 miles I was taken aback when I was passed by a couple of
    overweight guys and even one woman with some extra avoirdupois. I hit the
    10 in 73 and change, but my quads were already getting sore. I backed off
    and hit the half in 1:38. By now I was very sore, and feeling terrible. I
    could do the math, and the news was that I'd slowed to 8:00 miles -- on a
    downhill course! I had visions of deteriorating to 10 minute miles. I'd
    run long runs after a hard week better than this. Just to make it
    interesting, there were deep rumblings (from a less-comfortable compartment,
    CP) that required urgent attention -- a first for me in dozens of marathons
    and ultras. So I stopped and took care of business which cost me a shade
    over 2 minutes.

    I merged back into the crowd (which had been running about 10 sec/mile
    slower than I) and I struggled to stay with them. I resisted tempting
    thoughts about hanging it up and jogging in to a 3:30.

    I ticked off the miles, getting sorer and sorer. This course was a meat
    grinder. I had envisioned pushing the aerobic pain envelope, not quad pain.
    Finally, I hit 20 at 2:32 and got mad. Mad at my legs, mad at my body for
    letting me down, mad at the overweight guys who'd passed me. I thought "I'm
    going to treat this mile marker as if it were the start of a 10k."

    I started breathing 3-step, cranked up the heartrate to 161 (89% max), and
    put my head down. I started moving through the crowd. Every once in a
    while, someone would challenge me, but no one stuck. Now I felt better,
    despite the pain in every downhill step. At 22 miles, I knew that I could
    do this all the way in. I caught my brother, and we exchanged a quick
    "Hey", but he didn't want to join me. Finally I felt like I was racing, on
    offense. I reached out and slapped dozens of spectators' outstretched
    palms. Their touch energized me.

    By 24 it was getting rough. The wheels were still on, but there were loose
    lug nuts and the differential was making funny noises. It wasn't fun, but I
    could make it. One runner dashed ahead of me, then stopped, then raced
    ahead again. At one aid station he stepped in front of me and stopped dead!
    Strangest thing I've seen in a long time, but I wasn't in a philosophical
    mood. Finally we made the last turn, and the course flattened out for the
    last 3/4 mile. It was *so* tough. Now others were putting on their
    finishing surge, and I struggled to hold on to my pace. At the 26 mile mark
    I kicked it in. 3:17.

    So it was a long day at the office, and a dissapointing time, but I felt
    good about my 6 mile dash at the end. The legspeed ain't there anymore, but
    the mind is still willing. My goal is to get back into 80.5% wava shape, a
    3:00 marathon at my age, but I'm stuck at 72%. There are still a few things
    I can do (speedwork, lose that 10 lbs, run a few more miles). I was
    surprised that my legs were so sore and dead at the half; I expected the
    going to get tough after 18, not 11. Greg finished about 4 minutes back.

    I chatted with three faster runners afterward, and they ran 10-15 minutes
    slower than expected. The race has a lot of sneaky uphills in it, from 25'
    to 400'. The ups were no problem; the downs were the silent killers. Some
    thrive here, but this ain't no gimme. On our trip to the drug store that
    afternoon, we saw three young skinny guys limping out. "Advil?" "You got
    it!".

    The weather was perfect: about 40F at the start, and 60-ish at the finish,
    clear and clean, with some cloud cover in the middle miles. I doffed
    gloves, ski cap and baggy T-shirt over the first 8 miles. Fantastic views
    the whole way, from the crescent moon overseeing the dawn to the sunny
    finish. Hundreds of personal inspirational signs taped to road posts.
    Crowds gathered at all the crossings in the countryside, and the last few
    miles were lined with cheering spectators. The aid stations were spread out
    and well manned with eager volunteers. Very cool polished stone medals.
    Lots of goodies at the end (but no beer -- hey, this is Utah!)

    Lessons learned:

    You can't take it with you (into the future).
    Tapering is overrated.
    Sometimes you have more in you than you think.

    Hydration/nutrition:

    Started with a full 24oz squeeze bottle on a lightweight belt.
    Refilled it w/gatorbarf at miles 7, 13, 19, and drank on the run, ~8oz every
    2 mi.
    Took 1 succeed cap per bottle.
    My gu fell to the floor of the porta-john at 13 and I left it there!

  16. Dan Stumpus said:

    Back in the day I lost 8-10 lbs in a marathon, and I wonder
    what I could have done if I was smarter about hydration/salt.

    I don't believe all this salt stuff, during a race as short as 3 hours,
    **IF** you are on isotonic drinks and go into the race correctly fueled and
    hydrated.

    IMO if you go into a marathon (supposing trans/sub-3h performance) so badly
    hydrated / mineralised and "glycogenated", that salt turns out to be an
    issue, you got what you deserved. NB you = abstract person, not *you*, Dan.

  17. "steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I don't believe all this salt stuff, during a race as short as 3 hours,
    **IF** you are on isotonic drinks and go into the race correctly fueled
    and
    hydrated.

    Don't know if you've read up on hyponatremia, so excuse me if I'm telling
    you stuff you already know.

    Generally speaking, if you sweat and don't drink much, you won't get
    hyponatremic. The sweat you lose will have 1 gram/liter of salt in it, and
    you might even end up with a slightly higher Sodium concentration than you
    did before the race. Dehydrated, yes, but your salt concentration won't get
    that far off if you don't drink.

    On the other hand, if you sweat, say 2 qts (which I've done in a half
    marathon), and drink to replace that 2 qts without salt, then you are
    pushing the sodium concentration down into the borderline area.

    Gatorade is not the solution -- it has some, but much less than 1 gram/liter
    of salt. It is not isotonic with sweat in sodium.

    In a marathon of 3 hours, you're probably not going to get clinical
    hyponatremia. That usually occurs in longer events (the 6 hour marathoner,
    or the ultra runner, or Ironman triathlete). You have to drink a lot and
    not take in enough salt to get there.

    However, even though slight hyponatremia doesn't get you dangerously sick
    (eg, no brain swelling, convulsions, kidney failure, etc), I've observed in
    myself and others mental status changes: a numb, "who gives a rip"
    attitude, the straight ahead stare, the blank expression. My experience is
    that replacing salt keeps the mind sharp and alert even when exhausted.

    So you're right in the sense that a 3 hour marathoner isn't going to get
    sick, but if you do try to remain hydrated by taking in 1.5-3 liters of
    water, it's best to take salt to maintain your alertness.

    I believe 40% of the Ironman finishers are hyponatremic. They are usually
    so dehydrated that they don't get brain swelling (a very bad thing), but
    they're pretty far gone. If they were to rehydrate without taking or
    getting salt from food, they'd be in serious trouble.

    http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/hyponatremia2.html

  18. Quoted message said:

    1/2M yesterday (70F 50% humidity)...i only consumed 4 sips of gatorade
    (2 stops of 2 sips).

    apprx 8 oz every 2 miles seems like an awful lot of hydration. you
    stopped off at a porta-john too?....wow....fortunately i've never had
    to do that in a race....

    My experience re drinking is similar to Lance's. I never drink in races.
    I tried it once or twice in a race, choked on the water and realized
    drinking on the run was a skill I did not yet have. I never did try to
    acquire it, instead just didn't bother to drink, seemed simpler and
    since I seldom raced longer than 10km I don't think it hurt me.

    This past Sunday I raced a 21.1km for the first time in years. Once
    again I didn't drink anything because I hadn't practiced it and since my
    stomach was upset I couldn't risk it. It was warm out on the course. Air
    temperature wasn't so bad at but clear sunny skies meant that we were
    baking in the sun and I think most racers under-estimated the effect
    with the result that most runners I talked to had a very tough race. I
    saw some very good runners humbled by the sun.

    I did try to get one or two cups of water at every aid station (every
    2km) but I dumped this on my head and tried to make sure I got my shirt
    wet. I also ran under every hose that residents had spraying onto the
    course.

    I wouldn't advise anybody else to try my drinking strategy but it did
    work for me. I plugged my recent 10km time into a race predictor to get
    a goal for the half, and I was only a minute slower than that. I would
    say the sun is responsible for that minute.

  19. Dan - well done for toughing it out and running almost even splits...

    I wonder if you'd have felt a lot more comfortable on a flatter course
    (like Chicago).

    Hey - if Ed Whitlock can run sub-3, so can you! :-)

    Anthony.

  20. On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 02:22:16 -0400, Peter James <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    apprx 8 oz every 2 miles seems like an awful lot of hydration. you
    stopped off at a porta-john too?....wow....fortunately i've never had
    to do that in a race....

    UNLESS he's doing 10 mpm, then it's just about right. I admit to
    missing his race pace, so I'm not sure if it applys.

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