SST trainer work...

mattmor said:

Hello,

I know this is a bit lame, but I did my first structured trainer ride this morning. I didn't have much time for a workout, but what I did was a 5 min warmup, then a 5 min SST inverval, 1.5 minute rest, then another 5 min SST, 5 min cooldown. I was really just testing what a SST interval feels like, and I don't know how you guys do 2 x 20 SST.

The first interval was 246 avg power and the second was 248. I know when doing shorter intervals (like these 5 min) you want to go higher than FTP. But I was just testing a SST workout.

How hard do you consider SST workouts? I can't even compare them so the road since tempo on the road feels a lot easier.

Let me know your thoughts here. Thanks.

-matt

Well, assuming everything is calibrated correctly, then the difficulty is largely in your mind. I had a great trainer when I lived in cold weather climes that felt very realistic, which helps me, and where you could program stages, etc. and then get lost in cycling DVDs.

If your SST is in the low L4 range (90-92%+ of FTP), then they are not easy but should be doable once you get your mind around it.

L4 2X20s are generally an even higher intensity (95-100% of FTP)

Watoni said:

If your SST is in the low L4 range (90-92%+ of FTP), then they are not easy but should be doable once you get your mind around it.

L4 2X20s are generally an even higher intensity (95-100% of FTP)

Maybe the problem is in my mind 🙂 I gotta commit.

-matt

What kind of trainer do you have? Are you using a large fan for cooling?

There is definitely an adjustment period to riding on a trainer (ie, it's not in your mind). It'll probably take at least a half-dozen indoor rides before you're feeling like you can approach your outdoor output, and even then you might feel the pain more in the glutes/hams as opposed to quads outdoors.

Search the forum for threads on indoor vs outdoor power. There are lots of folks experiencing the same things that you are.

With only a 5-minute warm-up, your SST work might have felt harder than it should have.
15 minutes of low-to-mid-tempo range with 2 or 3 minutes of 100% FTP helps warm me up.

+1 I am allergic to magnetic trainers the pedal stroke doesn't feel right to me. The Kurt Kinetic Road Machine fluid or my free motion rollers make it alot easier.

frenchyge said:

What kind of trainer do you have?

Mattmor,

Do you know your FTP? Reason being, if you are riding in your own SST zones, you should be able to complete two five-minute bouts without too much suffering.

Upstate brought up a good point. Some people require longer warm-ups than just 5 minutes. (It takes me 20 minutes at least).

Bailsibub said:

Mattmor,

Do you know your FTP? Reason being, if you are riding in your own SST zones, you should be able to complete two five-minute bouts without too much suffering.

Upstate brought up a good point. Some people require longer warm-ups than just 5 minutes. (It takes me 20 minutes at least).

I'm running a Cyclops Fluid 2 rebadged by Trek. It wasn't that it was too hard, I guess it was more the concentration necessary to hold a steady power. It also wasn't easy.

I tested my power on the road at 277 FTP, that was however back in June or July. I know that it is probably not my FTP now, therefore my SST and training zones are off. I figured it couldn't be that far off?? I know I should probably run another test to get an accurate gauge of work. I just don't want to do an indoor test 🙂

-matt

mattmor said:

... I know I should probably run another test to get an accurate gauge of work. I just don't want to do an indoor test 🙂...-matt

FWIW, when I first start indoor training each fall my sustainable power on the trainer is typically 10 to 20% lower than what I typically sustain on the road. After three to four weeks that gap narrows considerably. But during the last two winters I haven't been able to get closer than 5% or so in terms of outdoor vs. indoor power and the past couple of springs I've seen an almost immediate 5 to 7% jump in sustainable power as soon as I get back outside.

Folks offer lots of possible reasons, and I have a huge fan, lots of water, keep the wheel speed high for a smoother ride, have a KK, CompuTrainer, and rollers and the results are pretty consistent across all devices.

But you don't really have to do a dedicated indoor test. Just start a bit easier and ramp your workouts until you figure out what you can sustain for your desired interval sessions. This stuff is self correcting, shoot too high and you'll know it quick, set your goals low and you'll know you can go harder or longer in your next session. You don't have to set aside dedicated testing days.

- Training is testing, testing is training....

Back off a bit, see what you can manage for the durations of interest, don't get too hung up on how it relates to outdoor numbers and ramp the time and or intensity as you get accustomed to training indoors.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

- Training is testing, testing is training....

Back off a bit, see what you can manage for the durations of interest, don't get too hung up on how it relates to outdoor numbers and ramp the time and or intensity as you get accustomed to training indoors.

-Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the insightfull reply. That's very helpful, I'm constantly amazed at the response you get when researching something on these boards. Thanks to everyone for helping!

-matt

mattmor said:

Dave,

Thanks for the insightfull reply. That's very helpful, I'm constantly amazed at the response you get when researching something on these boards. Thanks to everyone for helping!

-matt

I usually break down every interval into blocks of perceived exertion. It's not something I consciously try to do, but I just find I make mental bookmarks to gauge how hard I'm going and motivate myself to continue.

I used to do lots of two minute intervals, and I'd make a goal of NOT looking at the clock before the first minute. This is usually when things started to get pretty uncomfortable. One minute on - forget about it....sufferfest.

20 minute intervals, I try to keep focused on effort for the first 10 minute before I look at the clock.

SST stuff, which applies in your case. I go out a pretty good clip, but definitely a bit easier than the 20 minute intensity. I'm breathing fairly deep and rhythmically, but I'm telling myself, "This isn't so bad. I could do this forever." Usually between minute 30-40 it's starts to feel a little annoying. If I'm watching TV, it becomes harder to focus on the screen from about 40 minutes on. The discomfort keeps demanding my attention. From about 45 minutes on, time goes REALLY slow. It's not painful the same way as a shorter interval is, but you feel as if you earned it.

The purpose with all of these is to teach yourself to pay attention to your intensity, pace yourself, understand what your body is telling you - all with the goal of finishing each effort, regardless of duration, knowing you gave it your best.

The power meter helps to keep you honest, but it's all based on your best effort.

daveryanwyoming said:

FWIW, when I first start indoor training each fall my sustainable power on the trainer is typically 10 to 20% lower than what I typically sustain on the road. After three to four weeks that gap narrows considerably. But during the last two winters I haven't been able to get closer than 5% or so in terms of outdoor vs. indoor power and the past couple of springs I've seen an almost immediate 5 to 7% jump in sustainable power as soon as I get back outside.

Folks offer lots of possible reasons, and I have a huge fan, lots of water, keep the wheel speed high for a smoother ride, have a KK, CompuTrainer, and rollers and the results are pretty consistent across all devices.

But you don't really have to do a dedicated indoor test. Just start a bit easier and ramp your workouts until you figure out what you can sustain for your desired interval sessions. This stuff is self correcting, shoot too high and you'll know it quick, set your goals low and you'll know you can go harder or longer in your next session. You don't have to set aside dedicated testing days.

- Training is testing, testing is training....

Back off a bit, see what you can manage for the durations of interest, don't get too hung up on how it relates to outdoor numbers and ramp the time and or intensity as you get accustomed to training indoors.

-Dave

Thanks Dave for this post and that Alex wrote something similar on his blog. As I had been told by you guys that my estimated FT should be higher than what I was using I struggled with what I was supposed to do indoors. My FT was first set by me on indoor effort.

I was not only new to use a PM, but I was also new to using the KK trainer as I switched over from using a spin bike. Now after a few months my legs are starting to adapt to the different feel of the trainer and I can see my indoor effort on the trainer is starting to slowly rise to my outdoor effort and I am able to tolerate sitting on the trainer for a longer period of time, but it is good to know that even you veterans estimate a difference. At first when I adjusted my FT to what you guys had said for swag I was killing myself on the indoor training trying to get to L4 on that estimated number for outdoors. So indoor I am kind back to training with RPE or with a 10% diffference and using the PM. It feels about right now, but I hope I am on the right track training this way because I do most of my training indoors during the week.

I plan to do my first FT test on the first good Saturday spring day. I thought about doing it sooner, but I find winter cycling clothes to be extremely restrictive.

Off Topic
The one thing I have found frustrating lately is that my training is ramping up indoors on the weekday and I am somewhat fatigued trying to keep up with my group on Saturday's. Most of those guys don't train much during the week and let is all go on Saturday as if there is a race. I had been doing the same until I started getting more disciplined by training with the PM. It messes with my head that I am struggling to keep up with them on Saturday because it feels like I am getting worse instead of better, but I am hoping that the training is doing what it supposed to be doing and that if I am ever fresh I will see the improvement out on the road with my club.

Hi

Felt_Rider said:

Off Topic
The one thing I have found frustrating lately is that my training is ramping up indoors on the weekday and I am somewhat fatigued trying to keep up with my group on Saturday's. Most of those guys don't train much during the week and let is all go on Saturday as if there is a race. I had been doing the same until I started getting more disciplined by training with the PM. It messes with my head that I am struggling to keep up with them on Saturday because it feels like I am getting worse instead of better, but I am hoping that the training is doing what it supposed to be doing and that if I am ever fresh I will see the improvement out on the road with my club.

🙂 You will. You are getting better all the time but you won't really notice it until you rest. Tell us how it goes when you taper down for something and then go out with your mates, who will have already shot their bolts. You are keeping your powder dry, believe me, they will suddenly wonder if you are on something, it's great 😉

Keep the faith.

PBUK.

Quoted post said:

Off Topic
The one thing I have found frustrating lately is that my training is ramping up indoors on the weekday and I am somewhat fatigued trying to keep up with my group on Saturday's. Most of those guys don't train much during the week and let is all go on Saturday as if there is a race. I had been doing the same until I started getting more disciplined by training with the PM. It messes with my head that I am struggling to keep up with them on Saturday because it feels like I am getting worse instead of better, but I am hoping that the training is doing what it supposed to be doing and that if I am ever fresh I will see the improvement out on the road with my club.

How's your recovery? Are you taking time off or an easy day on Friday at least? After years of trial and error, I pretty much know my body and when it's ready to go and when it needs a rest. And this is kind of unique for everybody.

Typically two hard weekend days require 1-2 days of recovery. If it's a long block of long or intense rides back to back, I might use Tuesday as an easier day with a couple of shorter 1 minute hard efforts to prime myself for some good work on Wednesday. If the weekend wasn't as bad, I'll start the threshold work on Tuesday after a Monday off.

I recover better from longer interval work or SST - unless I'm doing an extended two day block of hard stuff. Usually 1 easy day off on Friday is enough to be ready for Saturday.

Then again, I have years of riding in my legs. If you're still a wee bit cooked on Saturday, even after an easy day on Friday, then look at the Saturday as training and just struggle though it. Get another longer distance ride on Sunday with a block of some good tempo or other system you want to focus on, rest, repeat.
....or....start your two day hard training on Tuesday/Weds, use Thursday as an outdoor tempo ride, Friday easy, and you should be ready to go on Saturday...should. Like I said, recovery is unique to the individual.
I would resist the temptation to pare back quality training during the week to play weekend hero.

Porkyboy said:

...🙂 You will. You are getting better all the time but you won't really notice it until you rest. ....

+1 on this advice.

It's amazing how many folks think it's important to "peak" for the weekly group ride but in doing so cut back on their overall training load and fail to improve. IMO, it's better to struggle a bit with January club rides while continuing to build power and base than it is to be a winter hero and hit summer with no improvement over your previous season.

Like Porkyboy says, failing to see improvement on a weekly basis during steady training doesn't mean the improvement isn't happening.

Porkyboy said:

Keep the faith.

Well said....

PB, BBrauer & Dave, it is because you guys are willing to step out provide the knowledge base here that average riders like myself can make improvements. Even for the club level cyclist.

I will keep the faith and keep pushing forward with what I am learning from you guys.

Much appreciation

Porkyboy said:

Hi

🙂 You will. You are getting better all the time but you won't really notice it until you rest. Tell us how it goes when you taper down for something and then go out with your mates, who will have already shot their bolts. You are keeping your powder dry, believe me, they will suddenly wonder if you are on something, it's great 😉

Keep the faith.

PBUK.

I am finally finding myself at an odd spot or a crossroads for a difficult descision. I am slowly evolving in my training and the more I use the power meter the more some of the guidelines you guys speak about is starting to make sense.

I had to send a note of apology of sorts this morning to the group leader for Saturday's ride because I backed off my training last week thinking I was getting a respritarory illness. That left me a bit more fresh than usual.

I stayed within the group on the first half of the ride, but since the first half involved a lot of climbing and I am not a great climber my performance was a bit better than normal and I was up toward the front of the group on the second half I had too much engine and sitting about 3rd guy back I was barely pedaling and kept running up close to the back wheel of the cyclist in front of me. I was boxed in and we were bunched up tight so it became a bit frustrating. I found a brief opening in the middle and took off.

I understand the group leader's frustration because a number of guys tried to chase me down (unsucccessfully) and that pulled the group apart. I wasn't trying to do this on intention, but just try to stay in my L3 zone for the remainder of the ride.

I am starting to understand now why many of you guys train solo. There are either two things that go on now days with me riding in the group. I am either exhausted and I fall off the back and that stresses the group leader or I may be fresh on occasion and I have the potential to pull the group apart. All of the riders including myself are club riders and no one in the group has intention of racing, but I find myself at a crossroad of making a tough descision. I sent an email to the group leader this morning to see if there is a compromise since riding with the group for the most part is really enjoyable. There are a lot of miles that I am compatible with the group, but I asked this morning if they can just ignore when I fall off the back or ignore and not chase me if I go ahead.

I am kind of struggling with what to do and I know you guys can't really help me since this is a personal descision that I have to make. I guess I am just airing out my mental struggle.

Felt_Rider said:

I am kind of struggling with what to do and I know you guys can't really help me since this is a personal descision that I have to make. I guess I am just airing out my mental struggle.

Either do loads of the work on the front, find a faster group, or train less 😄

PBUK

Porkyboy said:

Either do loads of the work on the front, find a faster group, or train less 😄

PBUK

I got a positive response from one of the group leaders that will ignore what ever I do. I have a feeling that I will be dropping off the back more often and avoid the impromptu races that occur. I just want to maintain constant torque and avoid doing the "race then coast" scenario.

I have to admit before getting sucked into this power training thing I was the worst in the group for surging forward and then coasting, but that seems to be the common style of that group. :o 🙂

So for the moment I will at least continue to start with them, but may not end with them.