square BB axles....slightly different?

AP said:

I've been looking at old chainsets on ebay, following earlier post on
fitting a new chainset to an '80s Italian racer, and came across
this, on SJS cycles site for a Campagnola chainset:

We strongly recommend Campagnolo bottom bracket for best possible
fit, other make bottom brackets may work but not as well. Shimano
units unlikely to fit due to different axle taper.

This brought to mind a comment on the earlier thread from Nigel
Cliffe:

I recall being told elsewhere that Shimano and Campag use fractionally
different tapers on their chainrings and bottom brackets, so
interchange isn't recommended.

Is this the case?

From branfordbike.com:
"Shimano and almost every major bottom bracket maker have traditionally
used the same spindle end cross section of 12.9 mm and two degree taper.
Campagnolo uses the same two degree taper but has a smaller starting cross
section of 12.7 mm.
A Shimano crank arm will bottom out on Campagnolo spindle. A Campagnolo
crank arm will not draw far enough onto a Shimano spindle."

Quoted message said:

If so, how do I find out who made my bottom
bracket? I've taken it apart a couple of times but I can't recall
seeing any names. Where should I look?

Perhaps you could measure the cross section. Personally I wouldn't bother.
There's not much chance of it being the right type and length for Campag
cranks, and it's nice to have a new maintenance-free BB anyway.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

AP said:

I've been looking at old chainsets on ebay, following earlier post on
fitting a new chainset to an '80s Italian racer, and came across
this, on SJS cycles site for a Campagnola chainset:

We strongly recommend Campagnolo bottom bracket for best possible
fit, other make bottom brackets may work but not as well. Shimano
units unlikely to fit due to different axle taper.

This brought to mind a comment on the earlier thread from Nigel
Cliffe:

I recall being told elsewhere that Shimano and Campag use fractionally
different tapers on their chainrings and bottom brackets, so
interchange isn't recommended.

Is this the case?

From branfordbike.com:
"Shimano and almost every major bottom bracket maker have
traditionally
used the same spindle end cross section of 12.9 mm and two degree taper.
Campagnolo uses the same two degree taper but has a smaller starting cross
section of 12.7 mm.
A Shimano crank arm will bottom out on Campagnolo spindle. A Campagnolo
crank arm will not draw far enough onto a Shimano spindle."

IIRC, Campagnolo use ISO square tapers, whereas the Japanese makers use JIS
(Japanese Industrial Standard). I think smaller makers like TA make both.

If you're going to buy a new BB anyway, I think you just have to make sure
it follows the same ISO/JIS standard of your chainset.

in message <[email hidden]>, AP

(') said:

I've been looking at old chainsets on ebay, following earlier post on
fitting a new chainset to an '80s Italian racer, and came across this, on
SJS cycles site for a Campagnola chainset:

We strongly recommend Campagnolo bottom bracket for best possible
fit,
other make bottom brackets may work but not as well. Shimano units
unlikely to fit due to different axle taper.

This brought to mind a comment on the earlier thread from Nigel Cliffe:

I recall being told elsewhere that Shimano and Campag use fractionally
different tapers on their chainrings and bottom brackets, so interchange
isn't recommended.

Is this the case? If so, how do I find out who made my bottom bracket?
I've taken it apart a couple of times but I can't recall seeing any
names. Where should I look?

I'm not certain re Campag vs Shimano, but certainly not all square tapers
are the same square taper - and because fit is exceedingly important at
the BB axle/crank assembly mixing them is bad news. New Campag BBs are not
expensive, even at full price (and now down to £1.50 discounted!), so if
you've got (or want) a Campag chainset get a new Campag BB.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; IE 3 is dead, but Netscape 4 still shambles about the earth,
;; wreaking a horrific vengeance upon the living
;; anonymous

Quoted message said:

the BB axle/crank assembly mixing them is bad news. New Campag BBs are not
expensive, even at full price (and now down to £1.50 discounted!), so if
you've got (or want) a Campag chainset get a new Campag BB.

I think you will also need a campag bb tool whihch rather adds to the
cost of the bb.
personally I used a veloce crankset on shimano un72 bb for years with
no problem , although I have a vague recollection of adjusting the
front mech to its furthest reach, implying that the crank was held away
from the frame a bit.
TerryJ

In article <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

AP said:

I've been looking at old chainsets on ebay, following earlier post on
fitting a new chainset to an '80s Italian racer, and came across
this, on SJS cycles site for a Campagnola chainset:

We strongly recommend Campagnolo bottom bracket for best possible
fit, other make bottom brackets may work but not as well. Shimano
units unlikely to fit due to different axle taper.

This brought to mind a comment on the earlier thread from Nigel
Cliffe:

I recall being told elsewhere that Shimano and Campag use fractionally
different tapers on their chainrings and bottom brackets, so
interchange isn't recommended.

Is this the case?

From branfordbike.com:
"Shimano and almost every major bottom bracket maker have traditionally
used the same spindle end cross section of 12.9 mm and two degree taper.
Campagnolo uses the same two degree taper but has a smaller starting cross
section of 12.7 mm.
A Shimano crank arm will bottom out on Campagnolo spindle. A Campagnolo
crank arm will not draw far enough onto a Shimano spindle."

Quoted message said:

If so, how do I find out who made my bottom
bracket? I've taken it apart a couple of times but I can't recall
seeing any names. Where should I look?

Perhaps you could measure the cross section. Personally I wouldn't bother.
There's not much chance of it being the right type and length for Campag
cranks, and it's nice to have a new maintenance-free BB anyway.

ISTR Stronglight used to use a larger taper than Shimano.

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

Quoted message said:

the BB axle/crank assembly mixing them is bad news. New Campag BBs are
not expensive, even at full price (and now down to £1.50 discounted!),
so if you've got (or want) a Campag chainset get a new Campag BB.

I think you will also need a campag bb tool whihch rather adds to the
cost of the bb.

Not so. I don't have one and I've fitted more than one Campag BB without.
The right tool would certainly help, but it isn't necessary.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
/-\ You have discovered a security flaw in a Microsoft product. You
|-| can report this issue to our security team. Would you like to
| | * Be completely ignored (default)?
| | * Receive a form email full of platitudes about how much we care?
\_/ * Spend hours helping us fix this problem on your own phone bill?

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

I think you will also need a campag bb tool whihch rather adds to the
cost of the bb.

Not so. I don't have one and I've fitted more than one Campag BB
without. The right tool would certainly help, but it isn't necessary.

What models of BB? What tool did you use?

Doesn't have to be the Campag brand tool, but do use a Campag-compatible
one. Mirage/Veloce's shallow rounded splines are easily damaged if you
bodge it.

~PB

Interesting...

I'm still (inevitably) thinking ebay, since even Wiggle's Italian-threaded
BBs seem to start at around the £20 mark...but if I've grasped the upshot
correctly, if I got this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220072073182&rd=1&rd=1

and this,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320073795346&rd=1&rd=1

I should be alright (assuming of course correct sizing for my frame); but if
I did get that chainset, I'd probably be best off avoiding this.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=004&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=140076708602&rd=1&rd=1

Is that about right?
"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

Quoted message said:

the BB axle/crank assembly mixing them is bad news. New Campag BBs are
not expensive, even at full price (and now down to £1.50 discounted!),
so if you've got (or want) a Campag chainset get a new Campag BB.

I think you will also need a campag bb tool whihch rather adds to the
cost of the bb.

Not so. I don't have one and I've fitted more than one Campag BB without.
The right tool would certainly help, but it isn't necessary.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
/-\ You have discovered a security flaw in a Microsoft product. You
|-| can report this issue to our security team. Would you like to
| | * Be completely ignored (default)?
| | * Receive a form email full of platitudes about how much we care?
\_/ * Spend hours helping us fix this problem on your own phone bill?

[fitting Mirage/Veloce BB]

.....Plus it's difficult to get it tight without the right tool. I can't
imagine how it could be fitted without the right sort of tool, actually.
Mole grips?

~PB

AP said:

Interesting...

I'm still (inevitably) thinking ebay, since even Wiggle's
Italian-threaded BBs seem to start at around the £20 mark...but if
I've grasped the upshot correctly, if I got this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220072073182&rd=1&rd=1

and this,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320073795346&rd=1&rd=1

No! 102mm is for modern *Chorus* and *Record* chainsets only. 111mm is
what most Campag cranks need.

I'm not sure a "vintage" chainset is a good idea anyway. If condition is
good then the price will go high because vintage Campag is collectable. You
don't want vintage in less than good condition as it's probably done
hundreds of thousands of miles. So you might as well get a more modern one,
I think.

Checkout Dotbike, Cycling Bargains, Parker International and Oldham Cycle
Centre as well as eBay.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

I think you will also need a campag bb tool whihch rather adds to the
cost of the bb.

Not so. I don't have one and I've fitted more than one Campag BB
without. The right tool would certainly help, but it isn't necessary.

What models of BB? What tool did you use?

Two Centaurs and a Veloce, and a plumbers Stilson. Not ideal and I don't
particularly recommend it, but it works.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.
[update three years after this .sig was written: it's still relevant]

Thanks Pete - for the main answer, which has probably saved me a fair bit of
frustration (not to mention grief from 'er indoors) and for the pointers to
potential sources. I shall check 'em all out.

Alan
"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AP said:

Interesting...

I'm still (inevitably) thinking ebay, since even Wiggle's
Italian-threaded BBs seem to start at around the £20 mark...but if
I've grasped the upshot correctly, if I got this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220072073182&rd=1&rd=1

and this,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320073795346&rd=1&rd=1

No! 102mm is for modern *Chorus* and *Record* chainsets only. 111mm is
what most Campag cranks need.

I'm not sure a "vintage" chainset is a good idea anyway. If condition is
good then the price will go high because vintage Campag is collectable.
You don't want vintage in less than good condition as it's probably done
hundreds of thousands of miles. So you might as well get a more modern
one, I think.

Checkout Dotbike, Cycling Bargains, Parker International and Oldham Cycle
Centre as well as eBay.

~PB

So, perhaps this...

http://www.cyclingbargains.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=96

and these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220072073182&rd=1&rd=1

??

(Sorry to keep going back to ebay, but I do prefer the older style, and tho'
I do take the point about wear & tear, I think it's actually reasonably easy
to get a fair impression of the condition from the photo. Compared with my
current set, this is Donny Osmond v Shane McGowan.)
"AP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks Pete - for the main answer, which has probably saved me a fair bit
of frustration (not to mention grief from 'er indoors) and for the
pointers to potential sources. I shall check 'em all out.

Alan
"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AP said:

Interesting...

I'm still (inevitably) thinking ebay, since even Wiggle's
Italian-threaded BBs seem to start at around the £20 mark...but if
I've grasped the upshot correctly, if I got this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220072073182&rd=1&rd=1

and this,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320073795346&rd=1&rd=1

No! 102mm is for modern *Chorus* and *Record* chainsets only. 111mm is
what most Campag cranks need.

I'm not sure a "vintage" chainset is a good idea anyway. If condition is
good then the price will go high because vintage Campag is collectable.
You don't want vintage in less than good condition as it's probably done
hundreds of thousands of miles. So you might as well get a more modern
one, I think.

Checkout Dotbike, Cycling Bargains, Parker International and Oldham Cycle
Centre as well as eBay.

~PB

AP said:

So, perhaps this...

http://www.cyclingbargains.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=96

and these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220072073182&rd=1&rd=1

??

I think they'd be fine together - but it'll be worth double checking 111mm
is right for that vintage of chainset. Probably the seller will know.

Quoted message said:

(Sorry to keep going back to ebay, but I do prefer the older style,
and tho' I do take the point about wear & tear, I think it's actually
reasonably easy to get a fair impression of the condition from the
photo. Compared with my current set, this is Donny Osmond v Shane

That's fair enough. It'll be interesting to see what the final price is,
though.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

Quoted message said:

I think they'd be fine together - but it'll be worth double checking
111mm is right for that vintage of chainset. Probably the seller
will know.

It is. That's early-mid nineties Athena. All Campag road doubles used
symmetrical 111mm bottom brackets at the time.

http://www.tuttocampagnolo.com/catalogs.php

Personally, I'd be wary of the "small mark in the back of the chain set
where the arm has possibly hit the front mech". Hard to judge from the
picture, but I'd say the chainrings show more than "some signs of light
wear" too, but of course these things are subjective. Perhaps the vendor
will send better pictures if asked.

James Thomson

In article <[email hidden]>, AP
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

So, perhaps this...

http://www.cyclingbargains.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=96

What's wrong with the £1.50 one from Ribble?

It's British thread - I need Italian.

Thanks for all messages - much appreciated. Wish me luck!
"Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
In article <[email hidden]>, AP
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

So, perhaps this...

http://www.cyclingbargains.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=96

What's wrong with the £1.50 one from Ribble?

AP said:

So, perhaps this...

http://www.cyclingbargains.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=96

and these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220072073182&rd=1&rd=1

Quoted message said:

??

(Sorry to keep going back to ebay, but I do prefer the older style

That chainset on ebay isn't all that old though looks only a bit different
from the silver 2006 ones.

For example:

Veloce 2006:
http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/details.asp?D=P&Cat=CHAINSETS&Section=CHAR&GenCode=CAMPCHAR0650

Xenon 2006, in silver:
http://www.parker-international.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/2322/groupID/3/categoryID/48/v/f91a1b87-0e65-4cc5-93fd-c3288d4e9aff

In article <[email hidden]>, AP
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for all messages - much appreciated. Wish me luck!
"Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
In article <[email hidden]>, AP
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

So, perhaps this...

http://www.cyclingbargains.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=96

What's wrong with the £1.50 one from Ribble?

It's British thread - I need Italian.

The one I'm looking at is Italian IT70-111mm

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/details.asp?D=&=&GenCode=CAMPBTBR0200