Speedwork: something isn't working

tfactor said:

now I'm feeling both puzzled and discouraged.

A lifelong issue I'm sure.

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
|I did some speedwork today for the first time in several months and
| now I'm feeling both puzzled and discouraged. I ran 6x800 meters with
| 400 meters of recovery between (and after a mile of slow warm up jog).

I think you are leaping into the speed work instead of gradually build it.
You supposed to start Yasso 800s with 2 or 3 repeat and gradually
build up to 10 repeats.

| And I'm discouraged because I was hoping to run 26x800 in 3 weeks
| (i.e. my half-marathon) at a pace that isn't much slower than one that
| I find difficult to run for 1x800 today. The physiological benefits to
| these workouts better be astounding because so far they're really
| setting me back psychologically.

I don't think you have enough time to do 800 repeats with only
3 weeks left before the target race. Since one shouldn't do any
speed work the week of race, you have only 2 left?
Maybe medium range tempo runs over next two weeks might
help with your speed. Also try racing this weekend or the next for
the distances between 5K and 10K to get some speed boost.

Good luck in the HM.

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| The 5K was 22:14, the 5-miler 38:20.
We are in the similar speed range.
I hadn't done any speed work since last fall and was
coming off a knee injury before I tried a tempo run 3 days before
the 5 miler the last weekend. I paced around 7:50 for 5.6 miles.
I don't know if it helped or hurt with my racing,
(I didn't care, it wasn't my target race)
but finished in 36:35 on hilly course.

tfactor said:

The 5K was 22:14, the 5-miler 38:20. I aimed for 3:45-3:55 for each
800. I don't have Daniels handy but I extrapolated based on the two
differing VDOTs from the two races and the T paces he gave for 1000
meters for those VDOTs. The recovery 400s were in the 2:30-2:40 range.

And, yes, ran on an old (1/4 mile) cinder track.

That's moderately long for a tempo workout (22:30 or longer), but not too bad.
I wouldn't expect it to be an easy workout though -- assuming you chose the
right paces.

I notice that the bottom of your proposed pace range translates to 5 mile pace
(plus or minus 10 seconds). That is probably a bit fast, even if it wasn't a
very good race (tempo workout should be about your "1 hour race pace"😉.

Also, you may lose a few seconds on a cinder track, because traction isn't
quite as good. This isn't a major factor, but if you're already pushing it,
then it makes a difference.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

I did some speedwork today for the first time in several months and
now I'm feeling both puzzled and discouraged. I ran 6x800 meters with
400 meters of recovery between (and after a mile of slow warm up jog).
I aimed for a pace (a Daniels "T pace"😉 based on a couple of recent
races: a good (for me) 5k six weeks ago and a bad 5-miler three weeks
ago. (McMillan suggested a slightly faster pace, by the way).

The pace on a mile basis is about 40 seconds slower than my fastest 5k
time and only about 10 seconds faster than the pace I'd been hoping
for in a half-marathon at the end of the month or about 90
seconds/mile faster than my normal training pace.

Here's the problem: I really struggled to finish the 800s in the
alloted time. I ran the first fast by about 10 seconds but it took
almost everything I had to make it under the wire for the next five. I
wasn't dry-heaving but wasn't that far from it.

So I'm puzzled because the pace that was suggested (by either Daniels
or McMillan) is for a workout that isn't supposed to be maximum effort
yet it nearly was for me. I doubt I could run a single 800, let alone
several of them, at that pace minus 30 seconds, which is my slowest
ever 5k pace. Is there something I haven't considered? Do other people
find similar workouts as challenging? Should similar workouts get
easier over time?

And I'm discouraged because I was hoping to run 26x800 in 3 weeks
(i.e. my half-marathon) at a pace that isn't much slower than one that
I find difficult to run for 1x800 today. The physiological benefits to
these workouts better be astounding because so far they're really
setting me back psychologically.

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| intervals. I'd been reluctant to do more intense workouts during the
| same week as a long (2+ hour) run but I'm only doing a 12-miler this
| weekend so I thought I'd pick up the slack with some speed work this
| week and next.

I would try at least a 14 miler but at very comfortable pace
no less than couple of weeks before the race.
At the very least it gives you more confidence about 13.1.

| This will be my first longer distance race so I'm gathering
| information and trying to determine a baseline as much as I'm setting
| a specific goal.

Since we are about similar speed range, this might get you a feel for it:
I ran my first HM without taper 3 weeks before the full last fall and
finished in 1:48:12. With taper and some speed work you could
be in the similar time frame or better.

Elflord said:

tfactor said:

I did some speedwork today for the first time in several months and
now I'm feeling both puzzled and discouraged. I ran 6x800 meters with
400 meters of recovery between (and after a mile of slow warm up jog).
I aimed for a pace (a Daniels "T pace"😉 based on a couple of recent
races: a good (for me) 5k six weeks ago and a bad 5-miler three weeks
ago. (McMillan suggested a slightly faster pace, by the way).

I'm also very puzzled. 6x800 at threshold pace with a longish recovery should
be a pretty easy workout.

The first thing I'd do is double-check the numbers. Would you post your race
times and paces for the repeats ?

Also, I take it you ran these repeats on a track ?

Cheers,

Thanks,

The 5K was 22:14, the 5-miler 38:20. I aimed for 3:45-3:55 for each
800. I don't have Daniels handy but I extrapolated based on the two
differing VDOTs from the two races and the T paces he gave for 1000
meters for those VDOTs. The recovery 400s were in the 2:30-2:40 range.

And, yes, ran on an old (1/4 mile) cinder track.

I2Run said:

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
|I did some speedwork today for the first time in several months and
| now I'm feeling both puzzled and discouraged. I ran 6x800 meters with
| 400 meters of recovery between (and after a mile of slow warm up jog).

I think you are leaping into the speed work instead of gradually build it.
You supposed to start Yasso 800s with 2 or 3 repeat and gradually
build up to 10 repeats.

Ah, well, now I know for next time. Still, I don't think the workout
should have been as challenging as I found it to be.

Quoted message said:

| And I'm discouraged because I was hoping to run 26x800 in 3 weeks
| (i.e. my half-marathon) at a pace that isn't much slower than one that
| I find difficult to run for 1x800 today. The physiological benefits to
| these workouts better be astounding because so far they're really
| setting me back psychologically.

I don't think you have enough time to do 800 repeats with only
3 weeks left before the target race. Since one shouldn't do any
speed work the week of race, you have only 2 left?
Maybe medium range tempo runs over next two weeks might
help with your speed. Also try racing this weekend or the next for
the distances between 5K and 10K to get some speed boost.

Good luck in the HM.

Thanks. I haven't trained at all methodically or specifically for this
race. I'd planned to do only base training with a few shorter races
beforehand. My schedule's changed so I won't be able to run any more
races before the half so I thought I'd make up for that by doing some
intervals. I'd been reluctant to do more intense workouts during the
same week as a long (2+ hour) run but I'm only doing a 12-miler this
weekend so I thought I'd pick up the slack with some speed work this
week and next.

This will be my first longer distance race so I'm gathering
information and trying to determine a baseline as much as I'm setting
a specific goal.

tfactor said:

Here's the problem: I really struggled to finish the 800s in the
alloted time. I ran the first fast by about 10 seconds but it took
almost everything I had to make it under the wire for the next five. I
wasn't dry-heaving but wasn't that far from it.

Some workouts, like some races, just don't go as hoped/planned.

Let's see how next week's session turns out. If that's closer to what
you expect then you're back on track. In the meantime I'm gonna guess
some combination of these factors conspired against you:

[a] first workout of the season *should* be considerably tougher/
slower - next few will likely get quicker and after about 4 weeks
you'll be in the groove, though probably still improving on the same
workouts

[b] running the first repeat(s) too fast tends to bite you in the ass
harder than you expect; better to run the first few a bit slow and
build up to target pace

[c] maybe just "not your day" - whether due to something identifiable
like too little or too much sleep, stress, calories, gin, sex,
caffeine, recent exercise, germs from an illness you're successfully
fighting which saps your energy... or just a totally random bad day

[d] yeah, cinders are probably worth a few seconds too

[e] warmup would've been inadequate for me: I'll get in at least two
miles of jogging on the way to the track, including a few bursts of
strides and drills

[f] whatever else

Quoted message said:

The physiological benefits to these workouts better be astounding
because so far they're really setting me back psychologically.

I2Run said:

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| intervals. I'd been reluctant to do more intense workouts during the
| same week as a long (2+ hour) run but I'm only doing a 12-miler this
| weekend so I thought I'd pick up the slack with some speed work this
| week and next.

I would try at least a 14 miler but at very comfortable pace
no less than couple of weeks before the race.
At the very least it gives you more confidence about 13.1.

I'll do 12 this weekend, ~16 the next, and then I thought maybe 10 or
12 the weekend before the race. The race is on the 27th so that'll
give me a week of some kind of taper.

Quoted message said:

| This will be my first longer distance race so I'm gathering
| information and trying to determine a baseline as much as I'm setting
| a specific goal.

Since we are about similar speed range, this might get you a feel for it:
I ran my first HM without taper 3 weeks before the full last fall and
finished in 1:48:12. With taper and some speed work you could
be in the similar time frame or better.

Thanks, that's good information to have. I thought I'd go out with the
8 mi/mile pace group (~1:45 finish) and see how I felt after a few
miles and adjust accordingly.

Elflord said:

tfactor said:

The 5K was 22:14, the 5-miler 38:20. I aimed for 3:45-3:55 for each
800. I don't have Daniels handy but I extrapolated based on the two
differing VDOTs from the two races and the T paces he gave for 1000
meters for those VDOTs. The recovery 400s were in the 2:30-2:40 range.

And, yes, ran on an old (1/4 mile) cinder track.

That's moderately long for a tempo workout (22:30 or longer), but not too bad.
I wouldn't expect it to be an easy workout though -- assuming you chose the
right paces.

I notice that the bottom of your proposed pace range translates to 5 mile pace
(plus or minus 10 seconds). That is probably a bit fast, even if it wasn't a
very good race (tempo workout should be about your "1 hour race pace"😉.

Also, you may lose a few seconds on a cinder track, because traction isn't
quite as good. This isn't a major factor, but if you're already pushing it,
then it makes a difference.

Cheers,

I hadn't considered the surface - all my training and racing is on
pavement.

I'll probably only be able to do one more speed session before my
half. Is there any risk (other than injury) of setting myself back if
I do another similar one at similar pace? I don't mind if there's no
benefit because I'm learning something about how I run but I don't
want to make myself slower in the process.

tfactor said:

I'll probably only be able to do one more speed session before my
half. Is there any risk (other than injury) of setting myself back if
I do another similar one at similar pace? I don't mind if there's no

Not at all. And I think your injury risk should be pretty low at those
paces. Where it's a problem is if you try to run like that every day,
or if you try to bang out lots of quarters in 1:30 or so.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
....

Quoted message said:

What has served me best so far are longer, slower "tempo" runs. Like
6 to 13 miles at marathon pace. Or 5-6 miles worth of 1-3 mile
"intervals" somewhere between HMP and MP. These for me are "hard" -
but definitely a gear or two shy of "race" - efforts.

Marathon pace work is similar to the Hadd longer runs progressing from about
80% HR early in the season to higher 80s later. Since it's not nearly as
taxing as tempo work, you can do much more of it without messing up your
overall volume. I think that this effort level is very effective in training
for longer races.

Quoted message said:

And on the faster side, it seems (from race results primarily, but
also how I feel) I've gotten a lot more obvious benefit from shorter
faster work - Daniels' "R" stuff, strides and reps - than VO2max "I"
workouts. And hills: hills are great, and I'd be a better runner with
better hills nearby.

Strides, yup, and.... drumroll... fartlek! Actually whenever I have the
legs for it, I do some effort on hills (80-85%) and easy on flats and downs
for long runs, with speed in certain sections that are just plain fun to run
fast on.

Quoted message said:

Guess I'm suggesting you can't be certain what physiological benefits
you'll reap without performing the experiment, and sticking with a
phase long enough (~6-8 weeks) to give it a fair shot. You may or may
not respond in textbook fashion to textbook workouts; and especially
if you don't, it's worth trying other stuff too. Try some Daniels,
but also some Lydiard, some Hansons, even some Horwill if you're a
total nutter who's immune to injury and overtraining. Follow them to
a tee or incorporate their salient principles into a more
improvisatory scheme as you listen to your body.

Isn't 8 weeks a wee too long for speedwork though? The rules of thumb I go
by on effort days are to 1) do it another day if you're beat, and 2) do it
by feel and not by time. How are the legs responding? How is the breathing
for the effort? I know the precision road and track guys live by specific
repeat times, and it would probably work for me also. But for longer repeats
(800s are long enough to be long) I'd much rather go by HR and feel. Timing
everything and trying to hit specific times in repeats I'm sure takes some
art in it's application.

As for the final 3 weeks before half marathon length of race, I'd do
something like a hard tempo day and a marathon pace day the 3rd week out,
then a medium tempo very early in the week the 2nd week out, then nothing
more than tapering and strides every couple of days the final 10 days or so.
If the workout isn't too hard or too long, it will be effective 10 days or
so away from a race. Anything closer than that will just slow you down IMO.

-Tony

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I did some speedwork today for the first time in several months and now I'm
feeling both puzzled and discouraged. I ran 6x800 meters with 400 meters of
recovery between (and after a mile of slow warm up jog). I aimed for a pace
(a Daniels "T pace"😉 based on a couple of recent races: a good (for me) 5k
six weeks ago and a bad 5-miler three weeks ago. (McMillan suggested a
slightly faster pace, by the way).

Just to give you a data point, my first speed workouts when I was young and
fast (33:xx 10k) were something like 10 x 440 in 83 seconds (slower than 10k
pace).

Every week I'd get faster. Everybody thinks they should kill themselves on
the track. All you need to do is go as fast as you can without getting
really uncomfortable or hitting the pain zone. Quick and smooth, no
histrionics. If you do that, you'll improve from workout to workout over
5-7 weeks at the same effort. I'd be ready to race when my 10 x 440 got
down to 71 or so (with some in the high 60's). The reps at this fitness
level were no more difficult than the first ones which were 40sec/mile
slower!

Apparently, nobody talks about the percieved effort, and everyone these days
equates speedwork with pain and suffering. The goal is improvement, not
pennance. Going too hard impares your growth, and in fact trains the
anerobic systems to the detriment of the aerobic systems, a bad thing for
distance runners. Unless you're a miler or below, it pays to back off a
bit.

Quoted message said:

The pace on a mile basis is about 40 seconds slower than my fastest 5k
time and only about 10 seconds faster than the pace I'd been hoping for in
a half-marathon at the end of the month or about 90 seconds/mile faster
than my normal training pace.

Yes, a bit slower than 10k pace. This is normal for your first speedwork,
maybe even a bit ambitious.

Quoted message said:

Here's the problem: I really struggled to finish the 800s in the alloted
time. I ran the first fast by about 10 seconds but it took almost
everything I had to make it under the wire for the next five. I wasn't
dry-heaving but wasn't that far from it.

The first one was enough to hurt the others.

Overall, your main error by my lights, was going for unrealistic goal times.
Run by feel. It gets easier. Push too hard too soon and you are not
training optimally.

Quoted message said:

So I'm puzzled because the pace that was suggested (by either Daniels or
McMillan) is for a workout that isn't supposed to be maximum effort yet it
nearly was for me. I doubt I could run a single 800, let alone several of
them, at that pace minus 30 seconds, which is my slowest ever 5k pace.

Those times are clearly unrealistic for you. Don't fight it. Just adapt --
you'll get faster. May take a few weeks is all.

Quoted message said:

Is there something I haven't considered? Do other people find similar
workouts as challenging?

I have and would.

Quoted message said:

Should similar workouts get easier over time?

Definitely. Just don't go so hard (eg flirting with puke point) that you
impair your aerobic pathways.

Quoted message said:

And I'm discouraged because I was hoping to run 26x800 in 3 weeks (i.e. my
half-marathon) at a pace that isn't much slower than one that I find
difficult to run for 1x800 today. The physiological benefits to these
workouts better be astounding because so far they're really setting me
back psychologically.

I think doing a 26x800 workout is unbelievably gimmicky, but whatever floats
your boat. When I was running 1:15's, and my faster friends 1:11, nobody
did workouts like that.

Short and fast, or longish and medium, or very long and easy. That is the
training formula for me for key runs. Look at how the best in the world
train. 26 x 800, sheesh!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

D Stumpus said:

Quoted message said:

I think doing a 26x800 workout is unbelievably gimmicky, but whatever floats

I think he meant, racing a half marathon.

But I agree -- racing a half marathon ? Sheesh !

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Tony said:

Isn't 8 weeks a wee too long for speedwork though?

Is that a trick question?

Answer: it depends, heavily.

Specifically, on whom you ask, in the context of what overall program,
and what you're calling "speedwork".

Though tfactor clearly ran harder than tempo effort, his stated intent
was T(empo) pace. One could run tempo stuff the whole year round.
(And strides. I suspect just doing tempos and stridey/reppy/hilly/
fartleky short fast bits year round would keep many of us around 96%
of our ultimate peak condition...)

Donovan, last I recall him speaking at length of his training, was
doing the same tough weekly track session ad infinitum with continual
improvement. In Noakes you'll see some legends employed little or no
periodization. Frank Shorter comes to mind as one who ran essentially
the same week all the time.

Daniels' programs, at least in the first edition of _DRF_, consist of
four phases each lasting six weeks. First phase is base; next three
incorporate a mix of workouts with the primary focus typically
shifting from faster reps to VO2max intervals to tempo runs. And in
the text (Daniels actually does relate a number of ideas, once you get
beyond the rows and columns of digits) he implies the timing isn't set
in stone but more of an optimal compromise: 6 weeks = you squeeze 90%
of the juice from each workout type / physiological subsystem; shorter
= less juice, longer = diminishing returns. I can claim direct
experience with Daniels (1).

Lydiard has you running base (aka conditioning or marathon
conditioning) "as long as possible" before shorter race prep/peaking
phases: hills, anaerobic, sharpening. From reading, it seems the
timing is more critical in this peaking program and trying to extend
one of these phases much beyond 4 weeks or whatever would throw you
off considerably.

(1) Having followed his 10k training pretty faithfully last spring, I
think *for me* *at my stage of development* those eighteen weeks did
indeed seem "a wee too long". I saw a big jump around the end of
phase 2 (first phase of workouts, emphasizing short reps) - sub-65 at
Philthy ten miler - and then little to no race-proven improvements
from the last two, three months of the program. Though all those
workouts may have set me up well for the marathon training which
followed.

I don't see myself going back for another season of Daniels, but also
kinda suspect that I'd have seen more benefit further into the season
had I gone in with a stronger base and/or twenty years younger.

D Stumpus said:

Quoted message said:

pennance. Going too hard impares your growth, and in fact trains the
anerobic systems to the detriment of the aerobic systems, a bad thing for
distance runners.

Dan, this isn't true.

Whether or not what you're doing "trains the anerobic(sic) systems" is not
really about how much it hurts, it is about training intensity.

Also, the relative contribution of the anaerobic system is not the same as
accumulated blood lactate. The latter may "feel" anaerobic, but it doesn't
directly relate to the relative contribution of the anaerobic pathway.

You can run your legs off in 2-mile repeats until you wish you were dead, but
you will recruit anaerobic pathways much more heavily with a few controlled
200m reps, with full recoveries, and the 200m reps will hurt considerably less.

You would not *feel* like the anaerobic pathways are being recruited, because
it isn't possible to accumulate much blood lactate in 30 or so seconds. The
rate of lactic acid production is quite high, but the accumulation is low because
you stop so early. That is where most of the energy is coming from, because
it's way too long for pure ATP/CP work, too short to get close to VO2 max, and
beyond what you can provide off O2 alone anyway.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

D Stumpus said:

Quoted message said:

pennance. Going too hard impares your growth, and in fact trains the
anerobic systems to the detriment of the aerobic systems, a bad thing for
distance runners.

Dan, this isn't true.

Whether or not what you're doing "trains the anerobic(sic) systems" is not
really about how much it hurts, it is about training intensity.

Also, the relative contribution of the anaerobic system is not the same as
accumulated blood lactate. The latter may "feel" anaerobic, but it doesn't
directly relate to the relative contribution of the anaerobic pathway.

You can run your legs off in 2-mile repeats until you wish you were dead, but
you will recruit anaerobic pathways much more heavily with a few controlled
200m reps, with full recoveries, and the 200m reps will hurt considerably less.

You would not *feel* like the anaerobic pathways are being recruited, because
it isn't possible to accumulate much blood lactate in 30 or so seconds. The
rate of lactic acid production is quite high, but the accumulation is low because
you stop so early. That is where most of the energy is coming from, because
it's way too long for pure ATP/CP work, too short to get close to VO2 max, and
beyond what you can provide off O2 alone anyway.

Cheers,

So to recruit more anaerobic pathways, what is the better length to
run intervals, a 200m or 400m?

Thanks,

S.

samson said:

So to recruit more anaerobic pathways, what is the better length to
run intervals, a 200m or 400m?

I'd start by cautioning that you probably don't want to specifically target the
anaerobic system if your goal is distances of 800m and up.

If you're training for 400m or shorter, I'd suggest reps of 300m or less. For
example, one sprinter I chatted with (Dennis Darling, 45s 400m) says he does
sets of 300m + 200m + 100m at about 400m race pace, with fairly substantial
recoveries. I don't think he said how many sets. I think most people would be
pretty wasted after two such sets -- 400m pace catches up with you very quickly.

The sprinters also spend a fair amount of time in the weights room (every day
or close to it).

I think one could benefit from more or less the same workout training for the
800m, but would be inclined to do more sets, and slow down the 300m/200m reps
to about 800m pace (but keep the 100m rep at the end of the set nice and quick)

Cheers,
--
Elflord