Speed limit

Brian Drury said:

Is there an enforceable speed limit on cycle paths?

The reason I ask is that today, with a strong tail wind I was cruising at
over 30mph on the Brighton seafront cycle path and when two of our cycle
equipped police riding two abreast eventually spotted me heading toward them
there was evidence of panic and I suspect some agitation. I know I should
have slowed down but it was amusing.

There were reports of cycle police and local authority officers attempting
to impose a speed limit on the local downs link cycle/walking path. I did
not see this but have seen the 'SLOW' signs along the path.

So, is there? Has anbody been nicked for this?

The normal speed limits do not apply to bicycles but I'd need to check the
RTRA 1984 to see if it could be done through a TRO

Tony

Brian Drury said:

Is there an enforceable speed limit on cycle paths?

The reason I ask is that today, with a strong tail wind I was cruising at
over 30mph on the Brighton seafront cycle path and when two of our cycle
equipped police riding two abreast eventually spotted me heading toward them
there was evidence of panic and I suspect some agitation. I know I should
have slowed down but it was amusing.

There were reports of cycle police and local authority officers attempting
to impose a speed limit on the local downs link cycle/walking path. I did
not see this but have seen the 'SLOW' signs along the path.

So, is there? Has anbody been nicked for this?

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would be unenforceable.

On the public road, speed limits only apply to motor vehicles, btw.
There are a lot of urban myths to the contrary, and a lot of coppers who
should know better.

Zog The Undeniable said:

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would be unenforceable.

Not true

Quoted message said:

On the public road, speed limits only apply to motor vehicles, btw.
There are a lot of urban myths to the contrary, and a lot of coppers who
should know better.

True of roads in general but not universally true. Roads in Royal Parks for
example can have speed limits that apply to bicycles. There has been debate
for example about introducing a 20mph limit including bikes in Richmond Park

Tony

Tony Raven said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would be unenforceable.

Not true

Quoted message said:

On the public road, speed limits only apply to motor vehicles, btw.
There are a lot of urban myths to the contrary, and a lot of coppers who
should know better.

True of roads in general but not universally true. Roads in Royal Parks for
example can have speed limits that apply to bicycles. There has been debate
for example about introducing a 20mph limit including bikes in Richmond Park

Tony

I was going to ask about this. The 20mph speed limit in Richmond Park
has bee introduced, and when cars stick to it, it makes it dangerous for
some cyclists as they're now needing to overtake cars on a regular
basis. A copper informed a friend of mine that the speed limit DID
apply to cyclists and they would start to enforce it.

Anybody have and less anecdotal information?

Pete

Ningi said:

I was going to ask about this. The 20mph speed limit in Richmond Park
has bee introduced, and when cars stick to it, it makes it dangerous for
some cyclists as they're now needing to overtake cars on a regular
basis. A copper informed a friend of mine that the speed limit DID
apply to cyclists and they would start to enforce it.

Anybody have and less anecdotal information?

The copper is right.

The roads in the Royal Parks are not public highways but Park Roads. The use
of the Park is covered by the Royal Park and Other Open Spaces Regulations
1997. Section 4(28) says written permission is required to:

(28) drive or ride any vehicle on a Park road in excess of the speed specified
in relation to that road in Part II of Schedule 2 to these Regulations;

Schedule 2 says:

Speeds at which vehicles may be driven or ridden on a Park road

1. On the Park roads in Bushy Park, Greenwich Park, Hyde Park (except for
the Serpentine Road), The Regent's Park, Richmond Park and St. James's and The
Green Parks, at a speed not exceeding 30 m.p.h.

2. On the Serpentine Road in Hyde Park, and on the Park road from
Kingston Gate leading to the Home Park Golf Club in Hampton Court Park, at a
speed not exceeding 15 m.p.h.

3. On any Park road (other than one mentioned in paragraphs 1 or 2 above)
at a speed not exceeding 10 m.p.h.

For Richmond Park the speed limit was reduced from 30mph to 20mph from 10 May
2004 by the Royal Park and Open Spaces (Amendment) Regulations 2004

It is legally enforcable by the Royal Parks Constabulary (who are separate
from the Metropolitan Police and report to the Royal Parks Agency, not the
Home Office)

Tony

Quoted message said:

The copper is right.

The roads in the Royal Parks are not public highways but Park Roads. The use
of the Park is covered by the Royal Park and Other Open Spaces Regulations
1997. Section 4(28) says written permission is required to:

(28) drive or ride any vehicle on a Park road in excess of the speed
specified
in relation to that road in Part II of Schedule 2 to these Regulations;

Does it state anywhere that a pedal cycle is a *vehicle*???

Just wondering.

Cheers, helen s

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dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Does it state anywhere that a pedal cycle is a *vehicle*???

I couldn't find a UK legal definition of "vehicle", but
dictionary.com says:

1. A device or structure for transporting persons or things; a
conveyance: a space vehicle.
2. A self-propelled conveyance that runs on tires; a motor vehicle.

So that would cover bikes, unless you take the tyres off ;-)

--
jc

Remove the -not from email

Brian Drury said:

Is there an enforceable speed limit on cycle paths?

The reason I ask is that today, with a strong tail wind I was
cruising at over 30mph on the Brighton seafront cycle path and when
two of our cycle equipped police riding two abreast eventually
spotted me heading toward them there was evidence of panic and I
suspect some agitation. I know I should have slowed down but it was
amusing.

There were reports of cycle police and local authority officers
attempting to impose a speed limit on the local downs link
cycle/walking path. I did not see this but have seen the 'SLOW' signs
along the path.

So, is there? Has anbody been nicked for this?

I know not whether anyone has been nicked for it, but the cycle path at
here:

<URL: http://tinyurl.com/ywsz8>

is liberally sprinkled with 20 mph signs. I remain curious as to how the
Aged William intend to enforce this...

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Does it state anywhere that a pedal cycle is a *vehicle*???

No it doesn't and there could be a line of arguement within the wording of the
Regulations that it does not but elsewhere in law, vehicle include bicycles
unless they are qualified e.g. the use of the words motor vehicles in the
regulations on speed limits on public roads

Tony

In news:[email hidden],
Tony Raven <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

The copper is right.

The roads in the Royal Parks are not public highways but Park Roads.
The use of the Park is covered by the Royal Park and Other Open
Spaces Regulations 1997. Section 4(28) says written permission is
required to:

(28) drive or ride any vehicle on a Park road in excess of the speed
specified in relation to that road in Part II of Schedule 2 to these
Regulations;

Schedule 2 says:

Speeds at which vehicles may be driven or ridden on a Park road

1. On the Park roads in Bushy Park, Greenwich Park, Hyde Park
(except for the Serpentine Road), The Regent's Park, Richmond Park
and St. James's and The Green Parks, at a speed not exceeding 30
m.p.h.

2. On the Serpentine Road in Hyde Park, and on the Park road from
Kingston Gate leading to the Home Park Golf Club in Hampton Court
Park, at a speed not exceeding 15 m.p.h.

3. On any Park road (other than one mentioned in paragraphs 1 or
2 above) at a speed not exceeding 10 m.p.h.

So does that include Holyrood park which is also a Royal Park, or is it
mentioned in the equivalent Scottish act?

Ambrose Nankivell said:

So does that include Holyrood park which is also a Royal Park, or is it
mentioned in the equivalent Scottish act?

No. I was responding to a question on Richmond park but the Royal Park and
Open Spaces Regulations only apply to Royal Parks and open spaces in London.
As well as the obvious parks they include as open space the gardens of the
Natural History Museum, Trafalgar Square, Primrose Hill and the gardens of
10-12 Downing Street.

Don't know about Scottish Royal Parks

Tony

Tony Raven said:

The roads in the Royal Parks are not public highways but Park Roads.
The use of the Park is covered by the Royal Park and Other Open
Spaces Regulations 1997.

Is it legal to cycle faster than the 20 mph "speed limit" on the road*
that runs through the non-royal Alexandra Park, north London (N22)? This
is a private road (although is owned by Haringey council).

* has no name, AFAIK.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Ningi said:

I was going to ask about this. The 20mph speed limit in Richmond
Park has bee introduced.........

We're lucky cycling is allowed at all there. Shame about Windsor Great
Park: "No cycles -- ridden or otherwise".

~PB

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:55:05 +0100, "Tony Raven"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would be unenforceable.

Not true

Not true that bikes do not need to be fitted with speedometers?

Or not true that that means one cannot therefore expect bike riders to
conform to speed limits?

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On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:31:34 +0100, Jeremy Collins
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Does it state anywhere that a pedal cycle is a *vehicle*???

I couldn't find a UK legal definition of "vehicle",

That's becuase it varies from part to part of the UK.

Legally, IIRC, under Scottish law bicycles can be viewed as a
pedestrian with additional equipment, although I've no idea what the
specific phrasing is.

Quoted message said:

but dictionary.com says:

1. A device or structure for transporting persons or things; a
conveyance: a space vehicle.
2. A self-propelled conveyance that runs on tires; a motor vehicle.

So that would cover bikes, unless you take the tyres off ;-)

--
Cheers,
Euan
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Gawnsoft said:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:55:05 +0100, "Tony Raven"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would be
unenforceable.

Not true

Not true that bikes do not need to be fitted with speedometers?

Or not true that that means one cannot therefore expect bike riders to
conform to speed limits?

Not true that the limit is unenforceable because bikes don't have
speedometers. Same way that drink driving laws are enforceable despite cars
not being fitted with blood alcohol monitoring equipment. There are parts
of the world including Richmond Park YouK and Marin County YouessAy where
speed limits on bicycles are enforced speedometer or not.

Tony

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:14:17 +0100, "Tony Raven"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Gawnsoft said:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:55:05 +0100, "Tony Raven"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
> As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would be
> unenforceable.
>

Not true

Not true that bikes do not need to be fitted with speedometers?

Or not true that that means one cannot therefore expect bike riders to
conform to speed limits?

Not true that the limit is unenforceable because bikes don't have
speedometers. Same way that drink driving laws are enforceable despite cars
not being fitted with blood alcohol monitoring equipment. There are parts
of the world including Richmond Park YouK and Marin County YouessAy where
speed limits on bicycles are enforced speedometer or not.

Of course, drink limits when driving are possible to avoid by not
drinking at all when driving.

It's not possible to have no speed at all, and still be considered
driving. (or cycling. Or travelling at all)

--
Cheers,
Euan
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Gawnsoft said:

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:31:34 +0100, Jeremy Collins
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Does it state anywhere that a pedal cycle is a *vehicle*???

I couldn't find a UK legal definition of "vehicle",

That's becuase it varies from part to part of the UK.

Legally, IIRC, under Scottish law bicycles can be viewed as a
pedestrian with additional equipment, although I've no idea what the
specific phrasing is.

Hansford vs London Express Newspapers (1928):

"I cannot see any reason for putting a limitation on the meaning of the word
"vehicle" and I hold that the word included a bicycle."

I think the Scottish situation you are thinking about relates to it being
legal in Scotland to cycle on footpaths.

Tony

Gawnsoft said:

Of course, drink limits when driving are possible to avoid by not
drinking at all when driving.

It's not possible to have no speed at all, and still be considered
driving. (or cycling. Or travelling at all)

Its quite possible to cycle slowly enough that you do not exceed the speed
limit. If you want to drink drive close to the limit, better get yourself a
breathalyser. If you want to cycle close to a speed limit, where one applies
to bicycles, better get yourself a speedometer. If you want to believe that
you can't be prosecuted for either if you don't have a measuring device
available, that's your perogative.

Tony