Silva sighting compass

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Peewiglet said:

Paul Saunders said:

> I know there's nothing complicated about the Silva system, but I
> also know that I regularly make stupid mistakes with it.

Maybe you'd fare better with a GPS?

I agree! I bought a little Geko 201 just before I went walking
recently. I didn't have time to learn how to use it with uploaded
routes etc, so just used it for getting a grid reference from time to
time, but I plan to get out the instruction book soon 🙂

I met someone like that on a hill once. They had an Etrex (basic yellow)
and couldn't understand why it was a km or two out. Wrong grid reference
system set.

Why anyone expects to navigate without reading the instructions in beyond
me.

Have you ever read the manual that comes with the yellow peril?
It's not the most helpful document ever written.
--
I try to be a good example to my children, but they just see me
as a dire warning.

Quoted message said:

As we said when I was an engineer. "If all else fails read the
instructions".

--
Dave F

Or as we say at work..... RTFM :-)

simon

Peewiglet said:

Until last year, I had a really brilliant Silva compass. It had a
little window in the compass housing through which I could look to
take a bearing (but it wasn't one of the compasses with a fold up
mirror). I bought it in Ambleside many years ago, because I've never
been a confident navigator. This compass made navigation much easier,
so although it was expensive it seemed like money well spent.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, last year I slipped running down a hill and landed on
my bum, smashing the compass in my bumbag into a thousand pieces.

Quoted message said:

I can't find another on the Silva site, and they don't have it in any
of the shops I've tried. A web search has suggested that it was a
Silva Model 54, but I may have got that wrong.

Quoted message said:

Has anyone else come across this compass? Do you know where I could
get one?

If you're prepared to spend that much on a sighting compass, you might
like to consider buying one that's nearly indestructible, such as

http://www.suuntousa.com/images/kb-14_lrg.jpg

which is carved out of a solid block of alumimium, and which would be
very difficult to break by jumping on it with hiking boots.

IMHO it's also much easier to use, since it doesn't have any of those
fancy features for automatic foolproof conversions between map and
magnetic north which always confuse me.

Something which breaks when you sit heavily on it is not really a
suitable piece of emergency lifesaving navigation equipment.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

NC said:

Peewiglet said:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:46:57 +0100, "Paul Saunders"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I know there's nothing complicated about the Silva system, but I
> also know that I regularly make stupid mistakes with it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe you'd fare better with a GPS?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree! I bought a little Geko 201 just before I went walking
recently. I didn't have time to learn how to use it with uploaded
routes etc, so just used it for getting a grid reference from time to
time, but I plan to get out the instruction book soon 🙂

Quoted message said:

I met someone like that on a hill once. They had an Etrex (basic yellow)
and couldn't understand why it was a km or two out. Wrong grid reference
system set.

Quoted message said:

Why anyone expects to navigate without reading the instructions in beyond
me.

It's not just navigation. I think the reasoning goes something like this.

1. If you need to read the manual you must be stupid, it can't be that hard.

2. Omigod I just happened to open it and it's got lots of pages and
words and stuff! Yuk!

3. I am not stupid, nor am I a boring anorak who reads boring manuals
for chrissake!

4. Can you change my watch to winter time for me?
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Peewiglet said:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:27:45 +0100, "NC" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree! I bought a little Geko 201 just before I went walking
recently. I didn't have time to learn how to use it with uploaded
routes etc, so just used it for getting a grid reference from time to
time, but I plan to get out the instruction book soon 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I met someone like that on a hill once. They had an Etrex (basic yellow)
and couldn't understand why it was a km or two out. Wrong grid reference
system set.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I *haven't* tried to use it with
routes yet, *because* I haven't read the instruction book. I do know
how to take a grid reference and find it on a map, though.

Yes, but have you checked to see if the grid refs your GPS supplies by
default actually match the grid refs on the maps you use? Usually they
don't. It's going to be pretty annoying to find out that you need to
read the manual in drizzling mist after you've spent two hours hours
walking down the wrong valley because the default GPS map datum was a
few km adrift of the OS map datum your map uses.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Dave Fawthrop said:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:27:45 +0100, "NC" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

| I met someone like that on a hill once. They had an Etrex (basic yellow)
| and couldn't understand why it was a km or two out. Wrong grid reference
| system set.

Quoted message said:

I found my etrex was set up wrongly after setting it up *to the
instructions*. It was 1/2 km out because the instructions did not even
mention British Ordnance Survey settings, except in a *very* obscure way
and inaccurately at that. The setup menu when I found it disagreed with
OS Maps.

Quoted message said:

I trust nothing until I have personally tested it.

Quoted message said:

When I got back to by computer and googled everything became clear, but on
a hill without a mobile phone signal I was definitely short of a paddle.

Quoted message said:

| Why anyone expects to navigate without reading the instructions in beyond
| me.

Quoted message said:

Because it is absolutely *impossible* to even read all the instructions for
all the electronic equipment I have. There are not enough hours in a year
for that, after deducting sleeping/eating time etc.

You must be a very slow reader.

Quoted message said:

As we said when I was an engineer. "If all else fails read the
instructions".

I originally went to university with the vague idea of becoming some
kind of scientist. I messed up badly and walked off without a degree
before they flung me out.

I accidentally became a kind of uncertified engineer simply because I
was good at fixing complicated broken things. I soon discovered that
most folk, including engineers, would only read the manual as a
desperate last resort when everything else had failed, and that He Who
Has Read The Manual is a Great Guru with Amazing Mental Powers.

By the simple expedient of reading manuals I became a research
scientist. Having read the manuals I was able to display such Amazing
Mental Powers that they waived the usual degree requirements.

Why didn't anyone tell me this before I went to university?

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Peewiglet said:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:46:57 +0100, "Paul Saunders"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I know there's nothing complicated about the Silva system, but I
>> also know that I regularly make stupid mistakes with it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Maybe you'd fare better with a GPS?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree! I bought a little Geko 201 just before I went walking
recently. I didn't have time to learn how to use it with uploaded
routes etc, so just used it for getting a grid reference from time to
time, but I plan to get out the instruction book soon 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I met someone like that on a hill once. They had an Etrex (basic yellow)
and couldn't understand why it was a km or two out. Wrong grid reference
system set.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why anyone expects to navigate without reading the instructions in beyond
me.

Quoted message said:

Have you ever read the manual that comes with the yellow peril?
It's not the most helpful document ever written.

It's one of the worst manuals I've ever read. I can only think of one
thing far worse as a guide to using the eTrex, and that is not reading
it.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Malcolm
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Peewiglet said:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:27:45 +0100, "NC" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I agree! I bought a little Geko 201 just before I went walking
> recently. I didn't have time to learn how to use it with uploaded
> routes etc, so just used it for getting a grid reference from time to
> time, but I plan to get out the instruction book soon 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I met someone like that on a hill once. They had an Etrex (basic yellow)
and couldn't understand why it was a km or two out. Wrong grid reference
system set.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I *haven't* tried to use it with
routes yet, *because* I haven't read the instruction book. I do know
how to take a grid reference and find it on a map, though.

Yes, but have you checked to see if the grid refs your GPS supplies by
default actually match the grid refs on the maps you use? Usually they
don't. It's going to be pretty annoying to find out that you need to
read the manual in drizzling mist after you've spent two hours hours
walking down the wrong valley because the default GPS map datum was a
few km adrift of the OS map datum your map uses.

The Geko series (and probably other recent Garmins) do not allow the
selection of WGS-84 with OS grid. You can't change the datum from Ord
Svy GB when using OS grid position format. If you have some application
that needs a different datum with the OS grid (rather an unusual
requirement for the vast majority of users) the only way you can do it
now is by setting up a user grid with the OS grid parameters and setting
the datum you require with that.

With the older Garmin default setting of WGS-84 with OS grid gave an
error just about 120m which could be confusing but is unlikely to lead
to next valley syndrome.

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

The message <[email hidden]>
from "NC" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

I met someone like that on a hill once. They had an Etrex (basic yellow)
and couldn't understand why it was a km or two out. Wrong grid reference
system set.

That is easily done - I did it even after reading the instructions - and
didn't even notice till I downloaded the track but then I rarely
actually use the GPS for general navigation.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 69 summits
New - 47 (Marilyns 13, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 35)
Repeats - 22( Marilyns 7, Sweats 16, Wainwrights 16)

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:53:01 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Yes, but have you checked to see if the grid refs your GPS supplies by
default actually match the grid refs on the maps you use?

Over a distance of almost 300 miles I found that the appearance of the
ground at grid references supplied by the Geko matched that shown on
the map, so I've no reason to suspect that it's wrong...

Quoted message said:

Usually they
don't. It's going to be pretty annoying to find out that you need to
read the manual in drizzling mist after you've spent two hours hours
walking down the wrong valley because the default GPS map datum was a
few km adrift of the OS map datum your map uses.

That would certainly be very annoying, but happily it didn't happen to
me. Any mistakes were entirely my own fault, and arose out of
misreading of the map/failure to apply my mind to the need to attempt
to read the map (tired and/or approaching end of day and/or growing
complacent etc)

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:09:25 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

| Why anyone expects to navigate without reading the instructions in beyond
| me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because it is absolutely *impossible* to even read all the instructions for
all the electronic equipment I have. There are not enough hours in a year
for that, after deducting sleeping/eating time etc.

Quoted message said:

You must be a very slow reader.

Many people are slow readers, but telepathic properties are much more
unusual. How come you know how much electronic equipment Dave has?
:-)

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you're prepared to spend that much on a sighting compass, you might
like to consider buying one that's nearly indestructible, such as

http://www.suuntousa.com/images/kb-14_lrg.jpg

which is carved out of a solid block of alumimium, and which would be
very difficult to break by jumping on it with hiking boots.

IMHO it's also much easier to use, since it doesn't have any of those
fancy features for automatic foolproof conversions between map and
magnetic north which always confuse me.

Something which breaks when you sit heavily on it is not really a
suitable piece of emergency lifesaving navigation equipment.

Yes, I have had a Suunto KB-14 compass for many years. It is a device of
great beauty, so beautiful that I would not dream of jumping on it with
hiking boots. Suunto make a similarly elegant clinometer (model PM-5). They
are precision instruments, but unfortunately they each weigh more than 120
g, including case and lanyard

If you are going somewhere serious a spare compass is probably good idea.
Any basic one will do.

--
Alan Law

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:24:04 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

If you're prepared to spend that much on a sighting compass, you might
like to consider buying one that's nearly indestructible, such as

http://www.suuntousa.com/images/kb-14_lrg.jpg

which is carved out of a solid block of alumimium, and which would be
very difficult to break by jumping on it with hiking boots.

Sounds cool - I'll take a look, thanks 🙂

Quoted message said:

IMHO it's also much easier to use, since it doesn't have any of those
fancy features for automatic foolproof conversions between map and
magnetic north which always confuse me.

I don't think the one I broke had those.

Quoted message said:

Something which breaks when you sit heavily on it is not really a
suitable piece of emergency lifesaving navigation equipment.

I didn't sit heavily on it. I was running down from Grisedale Tarn
towards Ambleside when I slipped on the wet path, went flying and
landed on my bum(bag). Since I'm about 9.5 stones, 5' 7" tall and was
moving fairly quickly, I imagine the forces involved were fairly
significant. Certainly I thought I'd broken my wrist for the next mile
or so!

I'll take a look at the one you suggested, though. Thanks again 🙂

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:22:46 +0100, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you're prepared to spend that much on a sighting compass, you might
like to consider buying one that's nearly indestructible, such as

http://www.suuntousa.com/images/kb-14_lrg.jpg

which is carved out of a solid block of alumimium, and which would be
very difficult to break by jumping on it with hiking boots.

Sounds cool - I'll take a look, thanks 🙂

I've had a look, and although it looks cool I don't think it has the
little window showing the bearing. The reason I was willing to pay £++
was I'm not the world's most competent navigator and...

.....never mind!

:-)

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:22:46 +0100, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you're prepared to spend that much on a sighting compass, you might
like to consider buying one that's nearly indestructible, such as

http://www.suuntousa.com/images/kb-14_lrg.jpg

which is carved out of a solid block of alumimium, and which would be
very difficult to break by jumping on it with hiking boots.

Sounds cool - I'll take a look, thanks 🙂

I've had a look, and although it looks cool I don't think it has the
little window showing the bearing. The reason I was willing to pay £++
was I'm not the world's most competent navigator and...

KB-14 is a true sighting compass, but the window is non-protruding. See this
URL:
http://www.suunto.com/suunto/main/product_long.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673940088&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723697223383&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442490195&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395903525&bmUID=1097426465884

www.suunto.com says that Viking Optical Ltd (Suffolk) are importers of
Suunto KB-14 compass, but Viking's web-site seems unclear on this. Certainly
I purchased a Suunto clinometer from Viking two years ago.
www.adventureshop.co.uk sell them, but seem to be out of stock.

--
Alan Law

In article <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:22:46 +0100, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you're prepared to spend that much on a sighting compass, you might
like to consider buying one that's nearly indestructible, such as

http://www.suuntousa.com/images/kb-14_lrg.jpg

which is carved out of a solid block of alumimium, and which would be
very difficult to break by jumping on it with hiking boots.

Sounds cool - I'll take a look, thanks 🙂

I've had a look, and although it looks cool I don't think it has the
little window showing the bearing.

The black hole near the lanyard point is the little window. I still
wouldn't get one though - one day you will find a use for the base plate
on the 54...

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:09:25 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote:

| Dave Fawthrop <[email hidden]> writes:

| >Because it is absolutely *impossible* to even read all the instructions for
| >all the electronic equipment I have. There are not enough hours in a year
| >for that, after deducting sleeping/eating time etc.
|
| You must be a very slow reader.

No too much badly written paperwork :-(

--
Dave F

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:12:39 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote:

| Fran <[email hidden]> writes:
|

| >Have you ever read the manual that comes with the yellow peril?
| >It's not the most helpful document ever written.
|
| It's one of the worst manuals I've ever read. I can only think of one
| thing far worse as a guide to using the eTrex, and that is not reading
| it.

Amen

--
Dave F

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:29:21 +0100, Dominic Sexton
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've had a look, and although it looks cool I don't think it has the
little window showing the bearing.

The black hole near the lanyard point is the little window. I still
wouldn't get one though - one day you will find a use for the base plate
on the 54...

Ok, thanks - good point 🙂 I do sometimes use the baseplate: just
not very reliably...

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:55:21 +0100, "Alan Law"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

KB-14 is a true sighting compass, but the window is non-protruding. See this
URL:
http://www.suunto.com/suunto/main/product_long.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673940088&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723697223383&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442490195&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395903525&bmUID=1097426465884

Many thanks - I'd not realised it was a window.

Quoted message said:

www.suunto.com says that Viking Optical Ltd (Suffolk) are importers of
Suunto KB-14 compass, but Viking's web-site seems unclear on this. Certainly
I purchased a Suunto clinometer from Viking two years ago.
www.adventureshop.co.uk sell them, but seem to be out of stock.

I'll take a look - thanks 🙂

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet