"Silicone Compound", not "grease"?



P

(Pete Cresswell)

Guest
A recent MTB thread on "Bicycle Grease" has got me going.

I've got a tube of what NAPA calls "Silicone Compound" (NAPA SKU 765-1346).

Seems to act like grease, feels like grease...although it doesn't look like the
greases I've seen. But I'm thinking there's a reason that they don't call it
"grease".

Can anybody elucidate the technical difference?

Mainly I'm wondering if I can use this any place that I use grease without fear
a bearing dying before it's time.


--
PeteCresswell
 
"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> A recent MTB thread on "Bicycle Grease" has got me going.
>
> I've got a tube of what NAPA calls "Silicone Compound" (NAPA SKU
765-1346).
>
> Seems to act like grease, feels like grease...although it doesn't look
like the
> greases I've seen. But I'm thinking there's a reason that they don't call
it
> "grease".
>
> Can anybody elucidate the technical difference?
>
> Mainly I'm wondering if I can use this any place that I use grease without
fear
> a bearing dying before it's time.
>
>
> --
> PeteCresswell

Silicone is a synthetic polymer:

"Any of a group of semi-inorganic polymers based on the structural unit R2
Si O, where R is an organic group, characterized by wide-range thermal
stability, high lubricity, extreme water repellence, and physiological
inertness and used in adhesives, lubricants, protective coatings, paints,
electrical insulation, synthetic rubber, and prosthetic replacements for
body parts."

If my memory is good (probably not) silicone was developed by Dow Chemical.
Grease is usually an organic (carbon) compound - often from natural sources
such as petroleum and animal fat.
 
(Pete Cresswell) wrote:

> A recent MTB thread on "Bicycle Grease" has got me going.
>
> I've got a tube of what NAPA calls "Silicone Compound" (NAPA SKU 765-1346).
>
> Seems to act like grease, feels like grease...although it doesn't look like the
> greases I've seen. But I'm thinking there's a reason that they don't call it
> "grease".
>
> Can anybody elucidate the technical difference?
>
> Mainly I'm wondering if I can use this any place that I use grease without fear
> a bearing dying before it's time.
>
>

I don't know about that particular compound, but I have been using GE
Versilube, Silicone lubricant grease, G322L for more than 30 years. I
recently relubed the bearings on a front Campy hub which had been
hanging on the wall for more than 25 years after having been used for at
least 3000 miles. The races were in pristine condition. The grease in
the races had darkened a bit, but in adjacent areas it was pale yellow,
which is its color when it is fresh from the tube. The last time I
looked, G332L was still available.

--
Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
ECHIP, Inc. ---
Randomness comes in bunches.
 
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:03:39 -0500, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]>
may have said:

>A recent MTB thread on "Bicycle Grease" has got me going.
>
>I've got a tube of what NAPA calls "Silicone Compound" (NAPA SKU 765-1346).
>
>Seems to act like grease, feels like grease...although it doesn't look like the
>greases I've seen. But I'm thinking there's a reason that they don't call it
>"grease".
>
>Can anybody elucidate the technical difference?

That stuff, if I recall correctly, is intended for use in lubricating
nonmetallic parts and surfaces (like window glides, plastic parts in
locks and linkages, and the like) where a lithium grease might attack
the plastic. Although there is a different product sold for use in
keeping ignition cable boots from sticking to the insulators of the
plugs, this grease is often employed for that purpose as well. It is
not, as far as I know, suitable for use as a bearing lubricant.

>Mainly I'm wondering if I can use this any place that I use grease without fear
>a bearing dying before it's time.

I would not recommend this.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
"Dan" <[email protected]> writes:

> If my memory is good (probably not) silicone was developed by Dow Chemical.

Yep. developed by Dow-Corning into a commercial product, discovered
and extensively studied by Frederick Kipping at Nottingham prior to
that.
 
Versilube, Silicone lubricant grease, G322L -

is there a viscosity? or intended use category on the tube?
how does it flow? at what temps?
what's the carrier or solvent?
 
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:03:39 -0500 "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I've got a tube of what NAPA calls "Silicone Compound" (NAPA SKU 765-1346).
>
>Seems to act like grease, feels like grease...although it doesn't look like the
>greases I've seen. But I'm thinking there's a reason that they don't call it
>"grease".
>
>Can anybody elucidate the technical difference?

There are many things that have the consistency of grease and yet they
are not good lubricants. Mayonnaise and egg whites might be two such
items.

Grease is a mixture of an oil and a soap. The oil does the lubrication
and the soap is just a carrier and dispenser for the oil.

It's likely that the silicon compound you're asking about contains
neither an oil nor a soap and is sold for its electrical insulating
properties.

What DO they suggest that it be used for?

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
 
Jim Adney writes:

>> I've got a tube of what NAPA calls "Silicone Compound" (NAPA SKU
>> 765-1346). Seems to act like grease, feels like grease...although
>> it doesn't look like the greases I've seen. But I'm thinking
>> there's a reason that they don't call it "grease". Can anybody
>> elucidate the technical difference?

> There are many things that have the consistency of grease and yet
> they are not good lubricants. Mayonnaise and egg whites might be two
> such items.

> Grease is a mixture of an oil and a soap. The oil does the
> lubrication and the soap is just a carrier and dispenser for the
> oil.

> It's likely that the silicon compound you're asking about contains
> neither an oil nor a soap and is sold for its electrical insulating
> properties.

Silicones are hydrocarbons in which one C in its hexagonal carbon ring
has been replaced by an Si. In most cases the resulting compound
behaves much like the oil that it would be with six C's except that
some of its characteristics are shifted substantially. Armorall is
one of these silicones, not to be confused with silicon.

> What DO they suggest that it be used for?

I think they are dodging the "grease" labeling to avoid liability
claims. Most silicones are not whet their promoters claim they are
other than their modified lubricity or volatility. Silicone oils
generally have a lower vapor pressure than regular hydrocarbon oils so
they don't evaporate as fast and diffuse onto nearby components in
clean environments.

However, the Si atom in silicones turned out to be a disaster for the
disk drive industry where the slightest amount of adsorbed silicone on
the data heads or disk caused head crashes due to the formation of
silicon oxides at the sliding interface between transducer slider and
data disk. In that case low volatility made no difference.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
[email protected] writes:

> Silicones are hydrocarbons in which one C in its hexagonal carbon ring
> has been replaced by an Si. In most cases the resulting compound
> behaves much like the oil that it would be with six C's except that
> some of its characteristics are shifted substantially. Armorall is
> one of these silicones, not to be confused with silicon.

Ouch. I know you don't like technical details, but there are a couple
of errors here. silicones are "polymers" which means that they are
chains of repeating subunits. The backbone of a silicone is made of
silicon and oxygen atoms linked togeter like so:
....-Si-O-Si-O-Si-o-... This leaves each silicon atom in the chain
with two open spots where it can form chemical bonds. These two spots
are linked to either hydrogen atoms or some carbon compound.
Naturally enough, these are called "side groups" and their exact
composition can be chosen to vary the properties of the resulting
polymer. In a formula the side groups are often written as a letter
"R" so you may see silicones represented as ...-O-SiR2-O-SiR2-O... or:


R R R
| | |
-O-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-
| | |
R R R


The side chains can also crosslink backbones together to give
something like:

CH3 CH3 H
| | |
...-O-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-...
| | |
CH2 H CH3
|
CH2
|
CH2 H CH3
| | |
...-O-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-...
| | |
H CH2 H
|
CH3


By varying the lengths of the backbones, the species used as side
chains, and the number of cross links, the properties of silicones can
be varied over a wide range, from silly putty, to a nice oil like
substance that feels like a breast when it is sealed inside a plastic
bag. There may or may not be six carbon rings around. Silicones are
not properly called "hydrocarbons" because they contain more than just
hydrogen and carbon.
 
"Jim Adney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Grease is a mixture of an oil and a soap. The oil does the lubrication
> and the soap is just a carrier and dispenser for the oil.


Soap is a mixture of fat or oil and a base (alkali). In the days of homemade
soap, lard or tallow (animal grease) was often mixed with lye leached from
wood ashes. Soap is made from grease not the other way around.
 
What authority might I cite that would convince you of your error?


"Dan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jim Adney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Grease is a mixture of an oil and a soap. The oil does the lubrication
>> and the soap is just a carrier and dispenser for the oil.
>
>
> Soap is a mixture of fat or oil and a base (alkali). In the days of
> homemade
> soap, lard or tallow (animal grease) was often mixed with lye leached from
> wood ashes. Soap is made from grease not the other way around.
>
>
 
the suggestion to:

http://www.visualthesaurus.com/
and ask the software to interpret first "grease" then "compound"

blends into my experience with the two-grease and wax or synth grease,
dino grease, soap grease, teflon wax, silicone liquids, wax.

in using krytox on the deray i did-no deray. no 2 ep deray!! antiques
yet.
covered the deray with tape and use valvo synth trans oil.
wax on chain? mushroomed the STEEL SR CR!
but the teflon was on the very slow moving low pressure center pull
springs and "lubeless" hahaha cable housings- ahhhhhhh! nice.
and proof of this-the SURFACE! as in the thesaurus interpretation of
compound. My garage door has a sliding hasp-coat with teflon wax and
zooooooommm slides forever. lotsa surface no pressure NO NEED TO FLOW
BETWEENMM BEARINGS. just sits there on the surface.
that's why my tube of silicone grease sits unused waiting for--why the
hasp off course!!
 
Soap is made from fats/oils, but reacted with alkali, not just mixed.
It is, essentially sodium\potassium salts (depending on the alkali
used) of fatty acids (from hydrolysis of glycerides in the original
fat/oil).

Just as water isn't a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen even though it
can be made from them, soap isn't a mixture of alkali and fats even
though they are used in its production. Chemical change is involved.

Grease is made from soap mixed with oil. No chemical change, just
physical mixing.

"Dan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Doug Huffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > What authority might I cite that would convince you of your error?
>
> Your logic confounds me.
>
> However, feel free to reference my old college chemistry book - it's in the
> bookshelf right behind my desk. Also try googling "making soap" or try
> "soap" at dictionary.com. You might also want to look up "detergent" while
> you are there. Detergents are often added to lubricants.
 
Per Jim Smith:
>technical details

While we have such a collection of expertise on this subject, can somebody tell
me why I'm using copper-based anti-seize (or, alternatively, something the LBS
calls "Ti-Prep") on my ti frame instead of the plain, nasty old black stuff that
I've had a pound or so of in a can for the last 20 years?
--
PeteCresswell
 
"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Per Jim Smith:
>>technical details
>
>While we have such a collection of expertise on this subject, can somebody tell
>me why I'm using copper-based anti-seize (or, alternatively, something the LBS
>calls "Ti-Prep") on my ti frame instead of the plain, nasty old black stuff that
>I've had a pound or so of in a can for the last 20 years?

Fashion?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"Andrew Webster" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Soap is made from fats/oils, but reacted with alkali, not just mixed.
> It is, essentially sodium\potassium salts (depending on the alkali
> used) of fatty acids (from hydrolysis of glycerides in the original
> fat/oil).
>
> Just as water isn't a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen even though it
> can be made from them, soap isn't a mixture of alkali and fats even
> though they are used in its production. Chemical change is involved.


Yes, I knew it needed to be cooked a bit.


> Grease is made from soap mixed with oil. No chemical change, just
> physical mixing.


OK, I was wrong. It seems that most, if not all, lubricating grease is made
from oil mixed with soap and maybe other stuff. How about silicone grease,
is it made with a soap component?
 
"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> writes:

> Per Jim Smith:
>>technical details
>
> While we have such a collection of expertise on this subject, can somebody tell
> me why I'm using copper-based anti-seize (or, alternatively, something the LBS
> calls "Ti-Prep") on my ti frame instead of the plain, nasty old black stuff that
> I've had a pound or so of in a can for the last 20 years?

I'm certainly not the one. I know a bit of chemistry but next to
nothing of the tribological or other black arts.

--
Panta rhei!
 
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:43:55 -0800 "Dan" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Jim Adney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Grease is a mixture of an oil and a soap. The oil does the lubrication
>> and the soap is just a carrier and dispenser for the oil.

>Soap is a mixture of fat or oil and a base (alkali). In the days of homemade
>soap, lard or tallow (animal grease) was often mixed with lye leached from
>wood ashes. Soap is made from grease not the other way around.

There's a semantic problem here. The grease that soap is made from is
one kind of grease (an animal fat) while lubricating grease is a
different animal completely, which just happens to be a mixture of a
soap and an oil. It's important that we not confuse the two uses of
this same word.

I'm no chemist, but I know that your description of a soap is close,
but not quite correct: Soap is not a mixture of a fat and a base, but
rather a reaction product of something like these. There's a "fatty
acid" in there, reacted with a base containing sodium, lithium, or
calcium, which tells us which kind of soap is used to make up the
lubricating grease.

There's more and better information on this in The Machinery's
Handbook. Anyone interested in the subject will find this complete and
concise treatment extremely interesting.

Or perhaps a real chemist can step in and tell us the exact definition
of a soap. I have an old post saved somewhere, but I can't find it
right now.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
 
What DO they suggest that it be used for?
having said this-

i do believe both P.WOOD and FINISH LINE bicycle greases are silicone
life based
further one expects both manufaturers buy the silicone then modify the
base silicone into dare i write it virginia -"compound"- suitable for
low speed low temp low forced flow hi moisture applications

so in the family tree of this silicone based life form both

I've got a tube of what NAPA calls "Silicone Compound" (NAPA SKU
765-1346).
and

GE Versilube, Silicone lubricant grease, G322L for more than 30 years.
I

is either ahead or aside, I wonder which, the cycle preps if the FL is
silicone? Does teflon mix with oil?P.Wood was said to be?
 
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