Share your winter trainer session protocols here:

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Uh, point of clarification: 20 min at 105% of functional threshold power is a maximal effort for me regardless of whether I'm indoors or outdoors. In fact, I think I'd find it just a tad easier indoors (unless you gave me a steady 4-6% grade and some friends to race against).

Really? Ok, well your clarification has been noted then

My FTP is actually just 90% of my 20 minute power (outdoors).

I do all 'testing', except for all-out sprints, on steady climbs which feels easier for me in terms of steadying my effort.

 

[jbvcoaching]

So what is your take on these sessions: as effective as longer isopower efforts, or not?

As far as I can tell, as effective. That said, I rarely do more than ~10% of my threshold work using this workout, since it's a trainer-specific workout...and I do as little as possible on the trainer personally.

It does appear to have the intended effect for clients as well, although that's far from a valid study.

I tend to suggest people do slightly higher than FTP (more like ~20MP) for the "on" portions. So in the end, the difference between 2x20 isopower and 8x5w/1 recovery would be:

- Slightly higher AP for the 2x20
- More time (if you're doing "time at level" ) >FTP for the 8x5
- More time @20MP if you're a "20MP guy") with the 8x5
- NP for entire workouts and resultant TSS is nearly identical.

I also kind of like to mix & match threshold workouts based on what keeps athletes interested and motivated, or just to avoid the 2x20 Olympics where they do a benchmark workout a couple times a week. I feel the latter can lead to too much pressure to put out more watts every single week, which can be unrealistic (esp as ATL climbs and TSB drops) and counterproductive.

 

[acoggan]

As far as I can tell, as effective.

Thanks! I asked because after building my standard 2 x 20 min power up to 300 W earlier this year, I switched over to doing 8 x 5/1 at 310 W twice weekly for 4 wk, and it seemed that my functional threshold power actually backslid a bit.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Thanks! I asked because after building my standard 2 x 20 min power up to 300 W earlier this year, I switched over to doing 8 x 5/1 at 310 W twice weekly for 4 wk, and it seemed that my functional threshold power actually backslid a bit.

i personally find that either long zone 3 sessions (~ 90-mins) or 8 x 4's are the best way for *me* to increase my TT ability (i think this is mainly because i'd rather do those sessions than say a 2 x 20, which i find mentally exhausting).

ric

 

[jbvcoaching]

i personally find that either long zone 3 sessions (~ 90-mins) or 8 x 4's are the best way for *me* to increase my TT ability (i think this is mainly because i'd rather do those sessions than say a 2 x 20, which i find mentally exhausting).

Historically I also seem to get the most FTP benefit from a steady diet of 2-4 rides per week that are:

- 1.5 - 3 hours long, overall intensity usually windsup in L3
- Somewhat variable (VI 1.1 - 1.3) either due to terrain or group dynamics

Smoothing to 30-60s, I get a lot of time in "true" L4/L5 during these rides, besides the fact they tend to drive up my CTL pretty effectively.

 

[jbvcoaching]

Thanks! I asked because after building my standard 2 x 20 min power up to 300 W earlier this year, I switched over to doing 8 x 5/1 at 310 W twice weekly for 4 wk, and it seemed that my functional threshold power actually backslid a bit.

What was going on CTL & TSB wise? Anything different?

How were you testing for FTP?

What else (parental responsibilities, travel, etc) did you have going on during each phase (the 2x20 vs. the 8x5)?

Besidesall that, as always, YMMV. We know I'm certainly different than you in terms of physiology, as you're pretty far over on one end of the spectrum (slow twitch, low AWC).

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Historically I also seem to get the most FTP benefit from a steady diet of 2-4 rides per week that are:

- 1.5 - 3 hours long, overall intensity usually windsup in L3
- Somewhat variable (VI 1.1 - 1.3) either due to terrain or group dynamics

Smoothing to 30-60s, I get a lot of time in "true" L4/L5 during these rides, besides the fact they tend to drive up my CTL pretty effectively.

to clarify (perhaps) in my schema, my zone 3 is generally between AC's level 3 and 4 (so like sweet spot?)

all of my outdoor rider have a reasonably high VI (up to 1.5) due to there being quite a few steep grades here (i live on the top of a 16% climb, how stupid am i buying a house there, thank God we're moving).

ric

 

[SolarEnergy]

Thanks! I asked because after building my standard 2 x 20 min power up to 300 W earlier this year, I switched over to doing 8 x 5/1 at 310 W twice weekly for 4 wk, and it seemed that my functional threshold power actually backslid a bit.

Interesting.

Of course we can't draw any conclusion without having the overall picture. But I think that as we get closer to our "limit" or I should say closer to the highest FTP obtain in a season, we become very sensible to any change in training regiment.

What may appear to be a refreshing and enjoyable way to raise FT power earlier in the prep season, may become an insufficient compromise as we get closer to the ceiling.

Your experiment also raises a question (at least in my mind). When trying to really push FTP (near of over previous known limit), should we perform the exact same workout twice a week? Or is it safer to try two different approaches to make sure that we fully "circle" our target.

 

[Roadie_scum]

mistype - meant 2 x 20

I'll give 3 x 20 @ 105 a try when I finally stop catching colds. I often do 3 x 20 @ FTP with 10 min "rest" intervals @ 250w in between and this isn't so knackering.....

Hmmm, so you seem to criticise another poster for not training hard enough, you advocate fairly-very hard workouts, and you're always catching colds. I wonder what's going on there?

 

[NomadVW]

I'm praying to god I can stay off the rollers for most of the winter. I've gotten some good winter stuff and hopefully the only thing I'll use the rollers for is to spin on recovery days.

I'm hoping for an early start to my season in the beginning of March, so I'm starting my spring training in December courtesy of Hunter Allen.

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/cycleiwakuni

 

[BullGod]

Hmmm, so you seem to criticise another poster for not training hard enough, you advocate fairly-very hard workouts, and you're always catching colds. I wonder what's going on there?

the first cold I caught this year (last week) was actually in my post season rest period actually...

yes - I train hard because I am cat 1 and I also work full time - so I only have a max of 15 hrs per week.

the point I was making about doing shorter intervals at or above FTP as opposed to long sessions below is that this would seem a logical and time efficient way to raise FTP. Peraps I'm wrong - I have no idea for sure...

 

[Roadie_scum]

the first cold I caught this year (last week) was actually in my post season rest period actually...

yes - I train hard because I am cat 1 and I also work full time - so I only have a max of 15 hrs per week.

the point I was making about doing shorter intervals at or above FTP as opposed to long sessions below is that this would seem a logical and time efficient way to raise FTP. Peraps I'm wrong - I have no idea for sure...

Fair enough, but I think you'll find you can handle your L4 intervals better and do a more consistent load without burning out if you try to do them at 91%-95% threshold rather than 105%. This makes 3X20 consistently possible, rather than a stretch, and thereby gets a better training effect.

By the way, I'm not knocking training hard, and I was perhaps a bit harsh before, but consider all the possibilities if you find you get a lot of illnesses. One possibility is luck, but you'd want to exclude the others first.

 

[peterwright]

Interestingly enough, after a low volume , high intensity winter with predominantly L4 and a little high L3 (but limited to around 6 hours/wk total riding) I have for the last 3 weeks increased volume to 9 hours per week and added some longer 90 min high L3 rides to the existing L4 sessions - FTP has, after a 3 month plateau, suddenly responded and I have felt a big difference in overall race performance - I estimate 15w increase in FTP.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Interestingly enough, after a low volume , high intensity winter with predominantly L4 and a little high L3 (but limited to around 6 hours/wk total riding) I have for the last 3 weeks increased volume to 9 hours per week and added some longer 90 min high L3 rides to the existing L4 sessions - FTP has, after a 3 month plateau, suddenly responded and I have felt a big difference in overall race performance - I estimate 15w increase in FTP.

Hey Peter !

Glad to hear that because that's one part of my strategy for this year. I'll plan longish L3/SS sessions later this year when the weather permits.

Did you try that with your athletes as well? Did they respond the same way?

 

[RapDaddyo]

I agree with Roadie_scum and peterwright on this topic, especially during the winter (i.e., "off-season"). I will rarely do an L4 effort >100%FTP because I'm focused on fairly high volumes of L4 a this point in the season as I build my CTL. Of course, if my schedule required shorter workouts I would probably increase the intensity to the 100-105%FTP range for the simple reason that the intensity wouldn't compromise the volume (due to lack of training time). I think intensity of L4 efforts is always inversely related to available training time. It just ain't easy to do 90-120mins of L4 at 100%FTP in one ride.

 

[BullGod]

I agree with Roadie_scum and peterwright on this topic, especially during the winter (i.e., "off-season"). I will rarely do an L4 effort >100%FTP because I'm focused on fairly high volumes of L4 a this point in the season as I build my CTL. Of course, if my schedule required shorter workouts I would probably increase the intensity to the 100-105%FTP range for the simple reason that the intensity wouldn't compromise the volume (due to lack of training time). I think intensity of L4 efforts is always inversely related to available training time. It just ain't easy to do 90-120mins of L4 at 100%FTP in one ride.

why don't we use these diferent workouts to come up with, say, 2 or 3 classic winter workouts, 60-90 mins in duration addressing say, L3 and 4 and L5....??

 

[Markster]

Fair enough, but I think you'll find you can handle your L4 intervals better and do a more consistent load without burning out if you try to do them at 91%-95% threshold rather than 105%. This makes 3X20 consistently possible, rather than a stretch, and thereby gets a better training effect.

By the way, I'm not knocking training hard, and I was perhaps a bit harsh before, but consider all the possibilities if you find you get a lot of illnesses. One possibility is luck, but you'd want to exclude the others first.

This is exactly why I like doing 90mins straight. As I know I'm not going to get any rest intervals I pace myself well and don't dig too deep. I don't actually aim for a wattage but they tend to end up around 90%. I finish these sessions feeling energised and happy and they don't seem to bring my immune system down like harder work. And they have a really positive effect -e.g. been doing these twice a week for last 3 weeks and every session has been 5W better than the last for no extra (perceived) effort.

And, Bullgod, it's not all I do! e.g. Saturday I did a continous 30mins alternating between 10secs at 450W, 110rpm, and 10secs at 200W. I wouldn't really recommend that session though unless you like sore legs.