Shaft drive bicycles?

"Jacobe Hazzard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can anyone comment on this link: chainless.combikeindex.htmlOpen ↗

Seems like it might actually work, but I wouldn't take their word for it. Would be much more
interested if they offered the shaft separately, with hardware for crank and hub.

The web site is still up, but that company is long gone. Hammacher Schlemmer sold one for a while
but it's no longer on their web site.

How do you fix a flat on the rear? Seems like a lot of work.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jacobe Hazzard"

Quoted message said:

Can anyone comment on this link: chainless.combikeindex.htmlOpen ↗

Seems like it might actually work, but I wouldn't take their word for it. Would be much more
interested if they offered the shaft separately, with hardware for crank and hub.

As shaft drive bikes go (and there have been many others) that looks like a pretty decent one. I
like the compatibility with hub gearing; good idea.

The knock on shaft-drive bikes has always been that they are slightly heavier and slightly less
efficient than chain drive; for these reasons, the shaft has no chance of displacing the chain on
racing bikes or the bikes of those who want to look fast. That said, it's low-maintenance,
high-durability, clean, and you can't get your trouser leg caught on anything. These are all really,
really good reasons to go to shaft drive on a typical "city" bike, or for bike-path cruising.

I think the city bike they've pictured on their pages looks really good, but the specs reveal
several caveats:

-a "chromoly" frame is a $45 upgrade from the "hi-ten" frame. That's probably worthwhile.

-28" wheels, which if it's not a typo, is an odd size, typical of Euro city bikes. In North America,
tire selection would be easier for a 26" (MTB) or 700c (road) standard. Heck, 27" tires are probably
easier to find than 28".

Their rigid MTB is possibly a better starting point for a city bike for that reason, and I'd really
like to know what the build quality is like.

$504 for a specialty bike with a Nexus 7-speed is on the expensive side, but no more than people
would pay for a high-end city bike like a Kettler.

I don't think there's much point in them selling the drive system separately, since as they point
out, it can't be easily retrofitted.

Without knowing how durable their shaft concept is, I'd say it looks like a good idea, and this is a
pretty cheap iteration of an old but still valid concept. The tradeoffs of shaft drive are
well-understood, and are reasonable compromises for many people.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I think the city bike they've pictured on their pages looks really good,

fabrizio should really can your ass.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> escreveu na mensagem
"]news:[email hidden]... ..............

Quoted message said:

The knock on shaft-drive bikes has always been that they are slightly heavier and slightly less
efficient than chain drive; for these reasons, the shaft has no chance of displacing the chain on
racing bikes or the bikes of those who want to look fast. That said, it's low-maintenance,
high-durability, clean, and you can't get your trouser leg caught on anything. These are all
really, really good reasons to go to shaft drive on a typical "city" bike, or for bike-path
cruising.

.............

Less efficient? I don't agree... Chain transmission MUST show three conditions to be efficient

- Perfect chainline: In a derailler system, just a pair of relations have a good chainline;
- Perfect tensioning: In a derailler system, there are NO good chain tensioning;
- The same number of teeth in Chainring and sprocket...

I've seen a knocking down of a shaftdrive to overhaul and/or fixing a flat tire... The same time as
a chaindrive.

[]'s Eduardo
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Quoted message said:

-28" wheels, which if it's not a typo, is an odd size, typical of Euro city bikes. In North
America, tire selection would be easier for a 26" (MTB) or 700c (road) standard. Heck, 27" tires
are probably easier to find than 28".

In European parlance 28" is 700C.

Rob Strickland

Jacobe Hazzard' may have said:

Can anyone comment on this link: chainless.combikeindex.htmlOpen ↗

Seems like it might actually work, but I wouldn't take their word for it. Would be much more
interested if they offered the shaft separately, with hardware for crank and hub.

90-degree gear drives do not approximate the efficiency of a chain drive. They're also more
expensive to make, and they don't provide the opportunity for an inexpensive and lightweight
multi-ratio drive as is found in the derailleur system.

There is, in my opinion, no danger that shaft drive will become popular or common.

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contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can anyone comment on this link: chainless.combikeindex.htmlOpen ↗

Seems like it might actually work, but I wouldn't take their word for it. Would be much more
interested if they offered the shaft separately, with hardware for crank and hub.

As shaft drive bikes go (and there have been many others) that looks like a pretty decent one. I
like the compatibility with hub gearing; good idea.

The knock on shaft-drive bikes has always been that they are slightly heavier and slightly less
efficient than chain drive; for these reasons, the shaft has no chance of displacing the chain on
racing bikes or the bikes of those who want to look fast. That said, it's low-maintenance,
high-durability, clean, and you can't get your trouser leg caught on anything. These are all
really, really good reasons to go to shaft drive on a typical "city" bike, or for bike-path
cruising.

I think the city bike they've pictured on their pages looks really good, but the specs reveal
several caveats:

-a "chromoly" frame is a $45 upgrade from the "hi-ten" frame. That's probably worthwhile.

-28" wheels, which if it's not a typo, is an odd size, typical of Euro city bikes. In North
America, tire selection would be easier for a 26" (MTB) or 700c (road) standard. Heck, 27" tires
are probably easier to find than 28".

They're talking about 28 x blah x blah (622mm), not 28 x 1½ (635mm). 90% chance of it being a
700-35C wheel. Here in Sweden, that 28" mess is pry 75% of the bikes out there.

On that note, where can you find new 28 x 1½ rims? I'd like alloy, but I'd settle for steel.

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jacobe Hazzard"

Quoted message said:

Can anyone comment on this link: chainless.combikeindex.htmlOpen ↗

<snip>

Quoted message said:

-a "chromoly" frame is a $45 upgrade from the "hi-ten" frame. That's probably worthwhile.

-28" wheels, which if it's not a typo, is an odd size, typical of Euro city bikes. In North
America, tire selection would be easier for a 26" (MTB) or 700c (road) standard. Heck, 27" tires
are probably easier to find than 28".

<snip>

Strangely enough, there was one of these being sold at yesterday's PUMP swap meet here in Portland.
I think they were asking $150. I didn't look at too closely, but it was definitely the same bike
that's on the website.

To clarify a couple questions: it did have 700C wheels & tires, along with aluminum rims and
V-brakes. Reasonable build quality for a Taiwanese bike.

The right rear dropout was very unconventional, no doubt to allow the rear bevel gear to fit. No way
could this be a retrofit item for a chain drive bike.

Jeff

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can anyone comment on this link: chainless.combikeindex.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think the city bike they've pictured on their pages looks really good, but the specs reveal
several caveats:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-28" wheels, which if it's not a typo, is an odd size, typical of Euro city bikes. In North
America, tire selection would be easier for a 26" (MTB) or 700c (road) standard. Heck, 27" tires
are probably easier to find than 28".

They're talking about 28 x blah x blah (622mm), not 28 x 1½ (635mm). 90% chance of it being a
700-35C wheel. Here in Sweden, that 28" mess is pry 75% of the bikes out there.

D'oh! I've never heard that terminology for a 700C wheel before. That's good to know. The 7-speed
shaftie city bike looks really good now (though another poster indicated that the company no longer
exists...)

Quoted message said:

On that note, where can you find new 28 x 1½ rims? I'd like alloy, but I'd settle for steel.

No easy answers on that. Web searches are problematic because I keep picking up 700c
'28-inch' wheels.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

"Eduardo L P Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> escreveu na mensagem
"]news:[email hidden]... ..............

Quoted message said:

The knock on shaft-drive bikes has always been that they are slightly heavier and slightly less
efficient than chain drive; for these reasons, the shaft has no chance of displacing the chain
on racing bikes or the bikes of those who want to look fast. That said, it's low-maintenance,
high-durability, clean, and you can't get your trouser leg caught on anything. These are all
really, really good reasons to go to shaft drive on a typical "city" bike, or for bike-path
cruising.

.............

Less efficient? I don't agree... Chain transmission MUST show three conditions to be efficient

- Perfect chainline: In a derailler system, just a pair of relations have a good chainline;
- Perfect tensioning: In a derailler system, there are NO good chain tensioning;
- The same number of teeth in Chainring and sprocket...

I've seen a knocking down of a shaftdrive to overhaul and/or fixing a flat tire... The same time
as a chaindrive.

[]'s Eduardo
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Dear Eduardo,

Curiously, the FAQ on the site in question claims 99% efficiency for its plethora of gears, despite
the usual rule of thumb that each gear-to-gear interface loses 3-5% of the original power.

It would be nice if anyone knew of a web page that showed actual power-loss data for derailleur
systems. The only study that I ever see mentioned is a pre-WWII effort involving an oil-bath,
perfect sprocket alignment, and ghostly data, always referred to, but never actually available. I've
raised this question before, but never seen any response. Possibly it's like a really good facsimile
of the First Folio, too expensive for most of us groundlings.

Carl Fogel

Eduardo L P Jr said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> escreveu .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The knock on shaft-drive bikes has always been that they are slightly heavier and slightly less
efficient than chain drive; for these reasons,

Quoted message said:

Less efficient? I don't agree... Chain transmission MUST show three conditions to be efficient

- Perfect chainline: In a derailler system, just a pair of relations have a good chainline;
- Perfect tensioning: In a derailler system, there are NO good chain tensioning;
- The same number of teeth in Chainring and sprocket...

I've seen a knocking down of a shaftdrive to overhaul and/or fixing a flat tire... The same time
as a chaindrive.

Your conditions are not met for bicycle chains used in derailleur systems, but the fact remains that
chains are efficient, just slightly less efficient than in the ideal conditions you listed. Clean,
well lubricated chains are very efficient; I have seen figures over 95%.

Shaft drive may have some advantages in cleanliness or esthetics, but it can't be as good as a chain
because it has two 90 degree gear drives.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Curiously, the FAQ on the site in question claims 99% efficiency for its plethora of gears,
despite the usual rule of thumb that each gear-to-gear interface loses 3-5% of the original power.

Yup, looks like snake oil to me.

Quoted message said:

It would be nice if anyone knew of a web page that showed actual power-loss data for derailleur
systems. The only study that I ever see mentioned is a pre-WWII effort involving an oil-bath,
perfect sprocket alignment, and ghostly data, always referred to, but never actually available.
I've raised this question before, but never seen any response.

Here's one page, comparing a MTB drivetrain to a couple of internal gear hubs.

ihpva.org006355.htmlOpen ↗

This is the only one I can find at the moment (ie, in a moment). I've seen other tests, where
conventional, non-Conmpact Drive (road bike) drivetrains did better than this Shimano LX.

FWIW, I saw another test for the Rohloff, which is what I was hoping to find. The Rohloff does
better than these other hubs, but still not as well as a derailer drivetrain. However, it was pretty
close to the LX -- so in dirty conditions it's probably as good or better.

But because of the two 90 degree turns, and the inefficient gears required to make them, shaft
drive is a non-starter. I'd like to point out that some lower-powered race cars use chain drive for
this reason.

Matt O.

Eduardo L. P. said:

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> escreveu na mensagem
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Curiously, the FAQ on the site in question claims 99% efficiency for its plethora of gears,
despite the usual rule of thumb that each gear-to-gear interface loses 3-5% of the original
power.

Yup, looks like snake oil to me.

...........

When you try to ride a shaftdrive bicycle, you'll change your mind...

How will we determine it's really 99% efficient just by riding it?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Dinosaurs aren't extinct. They've just learned to hide in the trees.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> escreveu na mensagem
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Curiously, the FAQ on the site in question claims 99% efficiency for its plethora of gears,
despite the usual rule of thumb that each gear-to-gear interface loses 3-5% of the original
power.

Yup, looks like snake oil to me.

...........

When you try to ride a shaftdrive bicycle, you'll change your mind...

All the best

Eduardo
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"Benjamin Lewis" <[email hidden]> escreveu na mensagem "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Eduardo L. P. said:

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> escreveu na mensagem
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

> Curiously, the FAQ on the site in question claims 99% efficiency for its plethora of gears,
> despite the usual rule of thumb that each gear-to-gear interface loses 3-5% of the original
> power.

Yup, looks like snake oil to me.

...........

When you try to ride a shaftdrive bicycle, you'll change your mind...

How will we determine it's really 99% efficient just by riding it?

--
Benjamin Lewis

I won't determine it's really 99% efficient just by riding it, as you won't determine if a
chaindrive is really 99% efficient ;-)

The only way to measure is by benchmark...

All the best

Eduardo
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"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Curiously, the FAQ on the site in question claims 99% efficiency for its plethora of gears,
despite the usual rule of thumb that each gear-to-gear interface loses 3-5% of the original
power.

Yup, looks like snake oil to me.

Quoted message said:

It would be nice if anyone knew of a web page that showed actual power-loss data for derailleur
systems. The only study that I ever see mentioned is a pre-WWII effort involving an oil-bath,
perfect sprocket alignment, and ghostly data, always referred to, but never actually available.
I've raised this question before, but never seen any response.

Here's one page, comparing a MTB drivetrain to a couple of internal gear hubs.

ihpva.org006355.htmlOpen ↗

This is the only one I can find at the moment (ie, in a moment). I've seen other tests, where
conventional, non-Conmpact Drive (road bike) drivetrains did better than this Shimano LX.

FWIW, I saw another test for the Rohloff, which is what I was hoping to find. The Rohloff does
better than these other hubs, but still not as well as a derailer drivetrain. However, it was
pretty close to the LX -- so in dirty conditions it's probably as good or better.

But because of the two 90 degree turns, and the inefficient gears required to make them, shaft
drive is a non-starter. I'd like to point out that some lower-powered race cars use chain drive
for this reason.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

Aha, some actual numbers! This looks like the sort of thing that I long for, but I want more, of
course. It only goes up to 42 x 11, while I spend most of my time trudging along in a 53 x 11.

Since my engineering training stopped at righty-tighty and lefty-loosey, I'm baffled by the
difference between the two columns. Is there an explanation (adapted to the meanest understanding)
for the same gear-chain combinations becoming more efficient at greater power?

That is, the same 42 x11 pair of sprockets is 91.5% efficient at 200 watts, but only 88% efficient
at 100 watts. It seems unfair that Lance Armstrong is not only more powerful than I am, but gets
more power transmission from the same chain and sprockets.

It isn't clear whether this effect occurs with both chains going the same speed with different
loads, one normal and the other twice normal, or with one chain going much faster with a lighter
resistance. (Work or force or speed or distance or something must be involved.)

Thanks for the link! Would you happen to have one to chain-driven low-powered race cars?

Carl Fogel

Was very interested to hear the reactions of the group, but noone mentioned durability..?

Are there any chain drive systems out there that would fit on an ordinary BB and rear dropout? I
would be very interested in building a bike with one, and I would think there would be a large
market for something like this. Just try convincing the average bike rider they want chain drive
cause it's lighter and more efficient (IMO, the average bike rider is riding a bike with poor fit on
improperly inflated tires, and just want their bike to NOT BREAK).

Here's something from Zero bikes:

Q: How efficient is the shaft drive system?
R: The performance of the shaft drive system ranges from 90 to 95 % efficiency. In comparison, the
efficiency of a good clean chain may be up to
98.5% efficient. Due to exposure to dirt and the elements however, the efficiency of a chain drive
will reduce more dramatically over time than the shaft drive system.

tomagbabi.pwp.blueyonder.co.ukfaq.phpOpen ↗

Jacobe Hazzard' may have said:

Was very interested to hear the reactions of the group, but noone mentioned durability..?

Are there any chain drive systems out there that would fit on an ordinary BB and rear dropout? I
would be very interested in building a bike with one, and I would think there would be a large
market for something like this. Just try convincing the average bike rider they want chain drive
cause it's lighter and more efficient (IMO, the average bike rider is riding a bike with poor fit
on improperly inflated tires, and just want their bike to NOT BREAK).

I think you meant to say "shaft drive systems" up there.

To the best of my knowledge, no retrofit system is available at this time. On most frames, the
chainstay of the bike frame would interfere with the path required for the shaft, and the dropout
would likely interfere with the housing for the rear gear pair. As a result, the Amis site's comment
to the effect that a retrofit kit is not available is probably a matter more of reality than desire.

I will also note that for the vast majority of bike buyers, there's no real durability advantage to
shaft drive. I refer, of course, to that huge group whose bikes are acquired at a mass-market retail
chain store and not ridden enough to cause any driveline component except tires and tubes to be
replaced in the life of the bike. Even if the shaft drive system were able to go twenty times as far
as a properly maintained chain-drive system before its first major component replacement was needed,
that would be of no real value to the cited group.

On the other hand, as you suggested, for those who go through a chain in six months and a cassette
in a year or less, a shaft system might look attractive. Unfortunately, the pool of such riders who
would be content with just 7 gears is probably not enough to get a mass-market builder like Shimano,
SRAM or Campy interested in the subject, and a Rohloff-level gearhub would doubtless run the price
well beyond what the low-level enthusiast mass market would support. And this still does not address
the reduction in efficiency that the shaft drive inherently produces, or the problems that make a
retrofit product essentially impossible to engineer. As such, then, shaft-drive is not likely to be
marketed as anything but an OEM-installed system...and despite the fact that there's one such on the
market already, the world is not exactly beating a path to their door.

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