Serotta makes headlines

Peter Cole said:

David L. Johnson said:

I use my bike every day, and the car usually on weekends.

David, is that *bike*, as in singular? You poor guy.

No, no. Just a generic reference. I use my mountain bike as my main
commuter, since it has the studs, fenders, lights, and all. On nicer days
when I can get home before dark, I ride my fixed gear.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:33:57 -0500, "Ken Marcet" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, how many people can afford to spend 6 grand or more on home

theaters?

Quoted message said:

Plasma and LCD tvs are selling like hotcakes, and lots of plasmas are more
than 6 grand. I guess it's about priorities. Compared to a 75K BMW, a 6K
bike isn't bad at all.

Well I wouldn't spend 6 g's on a T.V. either! Or 75 on a BMW.
I am more practical I guess. I like riding my old 75 ish road, I test rode a
new trek a couple of weeks ago, and didn't notice all that much difference.

Ken

As long as a person's family isn't going hungry, and they don't owe
me, I don't care how they spend their money. It's all about personal
priorities, and what makes you/them/me happy.

I paid three times as much for my last bike as I did for my current
car.[Not that the bike was all that expensive, the car was only $250]
I upgraded a lot of the components and I have about $2000, invested in
a bike that as equiped would have cost about $3000 retail. If I could
comfortably spend $6000 on a bike, I would do it. I like having
quality stuff. If I develope an interest I will research and
eventually buy the very best that I can afford. I make these decisions
based on a lot more than price. The key there is "the very best" that
"I can afford".

A good example is that I wanted a new set of wheels for my bike. If
all I wanted was to impress, I would have bought Mavic Ksyrium or some
other wheel with a bling factor. Well I did the research and choose to
have Peter build them using Velocity Aerohead 28f, 32r rims with DA
hubs, that I supplied. The only person impressed by these wheels is
me, but I know I have a high quality set of wheels.

Who are we, to judge or criticize how someone spends their money. My
quality bicycle inspires me to ride. My high end stereo system
inspires me to listen. I get a lot of pleasure and use out of these
items. I get MY money's worth.
I can ride my 29 year old road bike or listen to the car radio and
enjoy using them. But I get even more enjoyment out of using the best,
that I can afford.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Starr <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

As long as a person's family isn't going hungry, and they don't owe
me, I don't care how they spend their money. It's all about personal
priorities, and what makes you/them/me happy.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Who are we, to judge or criticize how someone spends their money. My
quality bicycle inspires me to ride. My high end stereo system
inspires me to listen. I get a lot of pleasure and use out of these
items. I get MY money's worth.
I can ride my 29 year old road bike or listen to the car radio and
enjoy using them. But I get even more enjoyment out of using the best,
that I can afford.

I, particularly, have to be careful around this one because I'm guilty
of making judgments about how people *make* and *spend* their money
all the time. For instance, when I see a new Mercedes SL600 ($130k)
on the road, or as I pass by mile after mile after mile of >$1M homes
(San Diego), I always think, "I hope they spend *something* on
somebody other than themselves." I'm not so sure that wretched
excess, conspicuous consumption, and pure narcissism are inherently
good things.

Before I wrote the check for the new bike, I did both the research
*and* the soul-searching, kinda' like you described above: did
everybody I love have everything they need. But then I went a bit
further and did the math that "Colorado Cyclist" alluded to: how does
this sort of expenditure compare to the amount I'd given to charity
over the last couple of years. Fortunately, I acquitted well on that
one.

In my case, I've struggled with serious eye problems for years. The
problems combine to cause chronic pain. The sum total of this has
taken me out of work and narrowed my world dramatically. As I review
the options of what I still *can* do, bicycling is among them, for
now. It's a place where I'm willing to put a disproportionately large
amount of money--for pride of ownership, appreciation of
craftsmanship, joy of riding, and that little bit of extra motivation
(that many have referenced) to help me get out the door on days where
pain predisposes me to stay at home.

When you see a person on an expensive bike--even more so than the guy
in the SL6 or the lady in the $4.3M house--there's a lot about that
person that you just don't know.

The one thing you do know, though, is that you've met a fellow
cyclist.

Tom Sherman said:

B i l l S o r n s o n said:

Brian Wax said:

Funny how you claim not to need the visibility but are the first to
claim it. You are a contradiction and a nuisance.

Dude, for the love of God LEARN HOW TO QUOTE.

TYVM.

Stop the presses! Mr. Sornson agree with Mr. Sherman about something!

Third time this year I think!

(Hell, take away politics -- and OK, maybe recumbents, too -- and we were
possibly separated at birth.)

Bill "JFTR, I sorta like recumbents*" S.

*same way I like those bizarre little Euro car-like things you see every
once in a while ;-P

(My RBM posts are being eaten {on my server, at least}, so pardon the
regurgitation if on yours they appear twice.)

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

If you've got piles of money (and there is no doubt JK does),
spending $6000 on a bike (even if it's not really "worth it"😉 is
still a very good investment.

Heck it was probably a good investment based solely on the exposure he
received by riding it.

Jeff Starr said:

...
I paid three times as much for my last bike as I did for my current
car.[Not that the bike was all that expensive, the car was only $250]
I upgraded a lot of the components and I have about $2000, invested in
a bike that as equiped would have cost about $3000 retail. If I could
comfortably spend $6000 on a bike, I would do it. I like having
quality stuff. If I develope an interest I will research and
eventually buy the very best that I can afford. I make these decisions
based on a lot more than price. The key there is "the very best" that
"I can afford"....

However, one can spend money foolishly also. With some components, one
is merely paying for a brand name, and not gaining any weight savings
(relative to strength and durability) or other performance or comfort
advantage. I have a hard time believing that an $8,000 bicycle has any
advantage over a well chosen $4,000 bicycle other than showing that the
owner can afford a very expensive toy.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

Mike Latondresse mikelat@no_spam_shaw.ca said:

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

If you've got piles of money (and there is no doubt JK does),
spending $6000 on a bike (even if it's not really "worth it"😉 is
still a very good investment.

Heck it was probably a good investment based solely on the exposure he
received by riding it.

Ask Fabrizio - if the man knew how to dress while doing so, he could
be POTUS today! Of course, GWB kinda leveled the playing field by
looking like a fred on his MTB too. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Tom Sherman said:

Jeff Starr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that an $8,000 bicycle has any
advantage over a well chosen $4,000 bicycle other than showing that

the

Quoted message said:

owner can afford a very expensive toy.

Yeah, I guess 4 grand is really roughing it.

On 25 Mar 2005 03:56:08 -0800, "Peter Cole" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Jeff Starr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that an $8,000 bicycle has any
advantage over a well chosen $4,000 bicycle other than showing that

the

Quoted message said:

owner can afford a very expensive toy.

Yeah, I guess 4 grand is really roughing it.

I'm not sure why you included my name above, seeing as the statement
was written by Tom, in answer to one of my posts. None of the content
above was written by me.

In fact I don't completely agree with it. Not everyone who spends more
than may be necessary, is doing it to impress someone. My guess is
that very few are, as there are better ways to put on displays of
wealth. Often the really impressive, don't seem so.

Bicycles are a good example of this, because the people who actually
can recognize an expensive bike, won't be impressed based on cost. And
those who don't know bikes are usually more impressed by flashy
suspensions, lots of options, and useless [censored] that has nothing to do
with a high end bike. They won't know if the bike is CF or stove pipe.

If I had the money, I would pursue the best fitting, most ideally
designed bike for me, the components would be top of the line, each
choosen for quality and fit. I'm sure I would have more than one bike,
so they would be optimized for their use. I would want one bike to be
the lightest weight possible, but no lighter than is safe. I would
have one bike setup for less than ideal conditions. Each of these
would be custom fitted, as that would be the best benefit for me.
I'm not rich and I am very happy with my 29 yr old French road bike
and my highly upgraded/personalized 2002 LeMond Tourmalet.

I think it is all relative, if you have the money and want the best,
do it. Who are we, to judge or critize how someone else spends their
money. When it comes to custom built limited edition items, it is hard
to assign a value to some of the intangibles. A good example is
buying wheels from Nashbar or buying them From Vecchios. There is
value added by buying from Peter. What that is worth can only be
decided by the buyer. To me, it was worth the asking price.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Starr said:

On 25 Mar 2005 03:56:08 -0800, "Peter Cole" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Jeff Starr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that an $8,000 bicycle has any
advantage over a well chosen $4,000 bicycle other than showing that
the owner can afford a very expensive toy.

Yeah, I guess 4 grand is really roughing it.

I'm not sure why you included my name above, seeing as the statement
was written by Tom, in answer to one of my posts. None of the content
above was written by me.

If Peter had a more expensive computer, then his quoting would be more
accurate.

(Slow morning.)

/b

In article <[email hidden]>,

Neil Brooks said:

Jeff Starr <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

As long as a person's family isn't going hungry, and they don't owe
me, I don't care how they spend their money. It's all about personal
priorities, and what makes you/them/me happy.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Who are we, to judge or criticize how someone spends their money. My
quality bicycle inspires me to ride. My high end stereo system
inspires me to listen. I get a lot of pleasure and use out of these
items. I get MY money's worth.
I can ride my 29 year old road bike or listen to the car radio and
enjoy using them. But I get even more enjoyment out of using the best,
that I can afford.

I, particularly, have to be careful around this one because I'm guilty
of making judgments about how people *make* and *spend* their money
all the time. For instance, when I see a new Mercedes SL600 ($130k)
on the road, or as I pass by mile after mile after mile of >$1M homes
(San Diego), I always think, "I hope they spend *something* on
somebody other than themselves." I'm not so sure that wretched
excess, conspicuous consumption, and pure narcissism are inherently
good things.

Now that's just not fair. The Mercedes SL600 is the cheapest V12-powered
sports coupe around! I daresay that such a purchase shows great
restraint and consideration for those in need of several hundred
horsepower, seating for two, and leather. It's cheap compared to some
other exotica.

Sure, you could get a BMW M6 for a little less, but it's short two
cylinders and a modicum of performance. Can't have that.

Feel guilty about sneaking C$350 worth of wheels past the missus this
year,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

Tom Sherman said:

Ken Marcet said:

...
I guess I would have to agree with you. Just as long as your hobbies don't
include homemade weapons of mass destruction!

I am having trouble finding the "Buy it Now" buttons on this site:
<http://www.strategic-air-command.com/weapons/nuclear_bomb_chart.htm>.
Is there something wrong with my browser?

I think you probably need to look into the links from this site.

<http://www.trygve.com/evilonabudget.html>

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts
you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get
them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer.
-- IBM maintenance manual, 1925

Jeff Starr said:

On 25 Mar 2005 03:56:08 -0800, "Peter Cole" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a hard time believing that an $8,000 bicycle has any
advantage over a well chosen $4,000 bicycle other than showing that

the

Quoted message said:

owner can afford a very expensive toy.

Yeah, I guess 4 grand is really roughing it.

...
In fact I don't completely agree with it. Not everyone who spends more
than may be necessary, is doing it to impress someone. My guess is
that very few are, as there are better ways to put on displays of
wealth. Often the really impressive, don't seem so.

Bicycles are a good example of this, because the people who actually
can recognize an expensive bike, won't be impressed based on cost. And
those who don't know bikes are usually more impressed by flashy
suspensions, lots of options, and useless [censored] that has nothing to do
with a high end bike. They won't know if the bike is CF or stove pipe.

Jeff Starr draws a conclusion here not supported by what I wrote. I was
not implying that the motive for an $8,000 US bicycle would necessarily
be to show off; it could also be a mistaken impression that the $8,000
bicycle really was significantly better than the $4,000 bicycle.

Quoted message said:

If I had the money, I would pursue the best fitting, most ideally
designed bike for me, the components would be top of the line, each
choosen for quality and fit. I'm sure I would have more than one bike,
so they would be optimized for their use. I would want one bike to be
the lightest weight possible, but no lighter than is safe. I would
have one bike setup for less than ideal conditions. Each of these
would be custom fitted, as that would be the best benefit for me.
I'm not rich and I am very happy with my 29 yr old French road bike
and my highly upgraded/personalized 2002 LeMond Tourmalet....

Jeff Starr draws a conclusion here not supported by what I wrote. I was
not implying that the motive for an $8,000 US bicycle would necessarily
be to show off; it could also be a mistaken impression that the $8,000
bicycle really was significantly better than the $4,000 bicycle.

It is possible to get a bicycle that meets a realistic level of
optimization for a lot less than $8,000. At that price level one is
merely paving for high prestige names on the frame and/or components;
i.e. the manufacturers are charging what the market will bear, with a
significantly higher than normal profit margin.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

“Ride Bike!” - Jobst Brandt

Jeff Starr said:

I'm not sure why you included my name above, seeing as the statement
was written by Tom, in answer to one of my posts. None of the content
above was written by me.

Sorry about the sloppy quoting, just an innocent slip of the mouse. I
was just laughing myself silly over the idea that a $4,000 bike could
be considered economical.

Peter Cole said:

Jeff Starr said:

I'm not sure why you included my name above, seeing as the statement
was written by Tom, in answer to one of my posts. None of the content
above was written by me.

Sorry about the sloppy quoting, just an innocent slip of the mouse. I
was just laughing myself silly over the idea that a $4,000 bike could
be considered economical.

If a $4,000 bicycle provides similar comfort, quality and performance as
an $8,000 bicycle, it is economical in comparison.

For drop bar road bikes, the point of sharply diminishing returns
appears to be somewhere around $1,000 - $1,200.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

Quoted message said:

For drop bar road bikes, the point of sharply diminishing returns
appears to be somewhere around $1,000 - $1,200.

I'd put the bar @ $2000 - $3000, but this is certainly one of those "eye of
the beholder" issues.

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but
rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set
brushfires in people's minds" - Samual Adams

Chris Neary said:

Quoted message said:

For drop bar road bikes, the point of sharply diminishing returns
appears to be somewhere around $1,000 - $1,200.

I'd put the bar @ $2000 - $3000,

I'd agree with you here. Yes, a $1000 road bike is imminently rideable,
and is far better than the proportionally-priced cheap roadbikes of 30
years ago. Even bottom-line components from Shimano or Campy are durable
and smooth; the Campy equipment at all price levels is basically the same
design, with only innovations and lightweight materials making any
difference.

But the compromises you need to make to sell a bike at $1000 are
nontrivial. It will weigh significantly more than a $2000 bike, and will
have wheels that definitely need re-building right out of the box.

On the other hand, the differences between a $2000 bike and a $6000 bike
are much smaller. Maybe a pound of weight, two at most. The difference
in performance between Dura Ace and Ultegra are much less than the
difference between Ultegra and Sora. Durability might well favor the
$2000 bike, since the really expensive bikes tend to the stupid-light.

My road bike is a Habanero. The difference between that $695 frame and a
Merlin or Litespeed are noticeable only by using serious instruments. The
difference in weight is a few ounces (my frame comes in at 3.4 lb, the
same size Litespeed Ultimate is 3.3, some other models get down to 3.0 or
a little below), but the difference in price is a factor of 5.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

Chris Neary said:

Quoted message said:

For drop bar road bikes, the point of sharply diminishing returns
appears to be somewhere around $1,000 - $1,200.

I'd put the bar @ $2000 - $3000, but this is certainly one of those

"eye of

Quoted message said:

the beholder" issues.

I think it depends on what you're eyeballing. After a certain point,
bikes don't get any more durable or functional, they just get lighter
and prettier. Pretty bikes will always have admirers (I'd rather admire
someone else's). Light bikes are really only important to racers.
Seeing fat people on svelte bikes always depresses me to no end.

David L. Johnson said:

...
But the compromises you need to make to sell a bike at $1000 are
nontrivial. It will weigh significantly more than a $2000 bike, and will
have wheels that definitely need re-building right out of the box....

Why would the wheels need anything more than competent preparation -
this could certainly be found in the $1,000 price range from a good LBS.

Maybe this is just a matter of communication/terminology, but I do not
consider adding grease to the hubs, adjusting bearing preload, checking
spoke tension, stress relieving, and truing the wheel to be rebuilding.
Most road bikes in the $1,000 range will have wheels with decent
quality hubs, spokes, nipples and rims.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

Tom Sherman said:

Why would the wheels need anything more than competent preparation -
this could certainly be found in the $1,000 price range from a good LBS.

Maybe this is just a matter of communication/terminology,

I would say that machine-built wheels would need more than truing and
stress-reieving. Instead they should be completely re-tensioned, dished,
trued, and stress-relieved. In reality they only come pre-laced. Most
shops would not consider this a reasonable thing to do for a bike costing
$1000, so it would be up to the buyer. For a $2000 bike I would expect
the wheels to be ready to use.

Quoted message said:

Most road bikes in the $1,000 range will have wheels with decent
quality hubs, spokes, nipples and rims.

It depends. Some of the hubs would be no-name, and the spokes would be
generic straight-gauge.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you
_`\(,_ | killed all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds,
(_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't
kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).