scheduling speedwork for marathon

Charlie Pendejo said:

Buried in my lengthy "training week" post:

Call for opinions: when and how should I fold in faster (than easy
aerobic) running?

Now. No need to wait.

Quoted message said:

I'll appreciate any input even if I may lack the
wisdom to follow the best of it.

NYC Marathon is 14 weeks out. I'm itching to run faster and feeling
like I should at least be doing LT work.

Then run faster and do some LT work.

Quoted message said:

Last few weeks I've done an impromptu tempo-ish run;

That's a good start, but none of this "tempo-ish" stuff from now on. If you're
going to do speed work, make sure you're not jogging. And if you're going out
for an easy run, don't turn it into speed work.

Quoted message said:

prior to that were a few scattershot hill reps,

Hill reps are fine as early quality work, or as a secondary type of speed work.

One way to prioritise speed is as follows:

(1) threshold work
(2) long intervals, e.g. 4xupper loop with a jog across the transverse, or
3x lower loop
(3) speed/strength: reps no longer than 2 min with at least 2:1 recovery:work
ratio. Hills are OK for this. If you're in the park, use either some of
the hills in the north end, or cat hill.

One way to address these is to periodise (read Daniels, it's too complicated to
explain in a single post). Another is to do the more important workout harder.

e.g.
workout 1: 2x5k at 10k pace (this is very hard)
workout 2: 1x3k at 5k race pace, or 3x1200 at 5k race pace (somewhat hard)
workout 3: fartlek run over hilly terrain (fun, quite easy)

In this scheme, workout 3 could be anything from a strides session to a workout
depending on how good you feel. You can push workout 3 from time to time, but
you've got to drop workout 2 if you do that (or, run the 3k at threshold pace
instead of a 5k pace). You also should drop workout 2 any week that you race.

It is worth mentioning that there is no hard and fast rule on speed work, hence
the lack of a consensus as far as concrete advice is concerned. The great Aussie
marathoner, Robert DeCastella had 3 key weekly workouts: a long run, hill reps
(he did these very hard) and his quarters with fast floats. He did *no*
specific LT work, though the recoveries on the quarters workout are close to LT
pace. Note this is almost an inversion of the priorities I mention above.

Quoted message said:

races, and short (100m) leg speed intervals while base building. And

Strides are almost never a bad idea.

Quoted message said:

the occasional set of strides thrown into regular runs. Two half M's
and a mile race scheduled before NYCM, might add another race or two.

Are you doing the fifth avenue mile ? I'm going to be running that.

Quoted message said:

Concerns: avoiding injury (mostly avoiding track may help), and
especially peaking at the right time, not prematurely or postmaturely.
Concrete, quantitative advice on how to peak on date X by reducing
mileage and increasing speed (when, how much, what type) seems rare.

The standard advice seems to be to use an exponential taper from 3 weeks out.
This is pretty conservative-- you could start the taper further out, but you
risk peaking too early if you do that. I'd recommend keeping the intensity
in there, right up to the start of the last week. Most programs begin the taper
at close to peak mileage. That obviously means you can't run as fast on your
speed workouts. But the marathon isn't about how fast you can run anyway.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

NYC Marathon is 14 weeks out. I'm itching to run faster and feeling
like I should at least be doing LT work. Last few weeks I've done an
impromptu tempo-ish run; prior to that were a few scattershot hill
reps,
races, and short (100m) leg speed intervals while base building. And
the occasional set of strides thrown into regular runs. Two half M's
and a mile race scheduled before NYCM, might add another race or two.

Quoted message said:

Concerns: avoiding injury (mostly avoiding track may help), and
especially peaking at the right time, not prematurely or postmaturely.
Concrete, quantitative advice on how to peak on date X by reducing
mileage and increasing speed (when, how much, what type) seems rare.

Well, this gets into philosophy (your specialty, I believe...). Some folks
just bash away for week after week, pretty much doing the similar thing for
months at a time. Lance, for instance likes to do his 75% runs all the
time, with races sprinkled in.

I prefer to peak for a race or series of races (lasting no longer than a
couple of months). The basic progression I've followed is:

**Phase I**
develop aerobic, fat burning circuits first. Build up mileage to your
target, at something like 70-75% of your max HR. The goal is injury free
mileage increase, not intensity, here. If you're tired, slow down.
Occasional easy fartleks or strides are fine, but no stress.

** Phase II **
12 weeks out from target, introduce two longish runs at 80% max HR. This
will be about 10-12 beats on average faster than the runs in phase 1. It
should feel like you're working moderately. You'll feel somewhat worked at
the end. Space them out -- I usually do Tues & Thurs. Keep the long run in
the mix, but make it easy-ish, say 70% of max HR. I do a mountainous run
of 10.5 miles on these 80% days.

** Phase III **
6-7 weeks out, start speedwork. This is work done at borderline-leg-burn
intensity, breathing hard, at 90%+ max hr at the end. (It takes 30+ seconds
for the heartrate to ramp up). Don't go all out! If you push it too far,
Mr. Injury, the Grim Reaper of the racer, will make an appearance. The
mixture of distances can vary, from 1:30 to 5 minutes is what I do.
Sometimes, for ultras, I'll do 10 minute intervals, but for shorter races,
my longest distance is a bit over 5 minutes. I do them by time on flat or
rolling trails, and use my HRM for kicks. I do a limited set of workouts to
be able to track improvement (good) or lack thereof (need to back off on
other running).

Don't go all out. Go as fast as you can without straining, or having your
legs load up and be forced to slow down. This takes practice and
concentration. Part of what you're doing is to train the type I fast twitch
muscles to behave aerobically. If you go anerobic (leg burn) there's too
much smoke in the engine room for this to happen. You're also becoming more
biomechanically efficient by pushing the speed.

How much work? Do only a max of 12-15 minutes of actual hard work. I jog
until my HR gets down to below 130 before running the next one. Sometimes
(doing miles), I'll jog 4+ minutes.

Do twice/week. If you get a twinge, react by skipping a workout /
stretching / icing or substutiting a slower longer workout for the speed. I
find that I really need to stretch my hams and calves during this phase to
keep muscle pulls and Achilles injuries away.

If you do it right, you'll gradually improve for several weeks. When
younger, I'd improve for 7 weeks, then plateau. Now at 53, I seem to
plateau after about 4-5 weeks. When you plateau, it's time to race.

** Phase IV **
Then it's taper time. I poisonally do a 10 day taper, easing back on the
second Wednesday before the race, followed by a 60% long run at a quicker
than normal pace on Sat, take Sunday off, then something like
7,5,4,2.5,0,race. (I run 70+ mpw).

If you ramp into speedwork too many weeks out, you'll get stale, and
increase the risk of injury. Ideally you want to do your strongest workouts
two weeks before the big one -- but you shouldn't be trying any harder. You
can't force things. Think gradual improvement.

If you race during phase II or III, make adjustments to recover (eg, only
one moderate or speedwork day instead of two, and/or reduce the long run) so
you're recovered by the next Thursday (or the second harder run in the
week). A 1/2 M is quite strenuous, and will require more of a recovery week
than a 10k. I rarely taper for these workout-races, maybe just run extra
slow the day before. You'll run 3-5% slower than when your rested if you're
like me. Take it like a man...

-- Dan

That'll be $.02, thank you.

You've gotten some good advice. I might add that one of the best
things you can do is to get in some miles at your goal marathon pace.
So if you're shooting for 4:00, do some work at 9:00 per mile. My
strategy is to work in a few miles at MP toward the end of long or
medium-long runs, and every few weeks to do a fairly long segment at
MP; I think I do 14 at MP about five weeks out. In fact if I can I run
a half-marathon at goal pace, to get the feel of race day (and water
stops etc.).

--
Brian P. Baresch
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

Brian Baresch said:

You've gotten some good advice.

Amen to that. Both Donovan and Dan have provided some great stuff.

Quoted message said:

I might add that one of the best
things you can do is to get in some miles at your goal marathon pace.
So if you're shooting for 4:00, do some work at 9:00 per mile. My
strategy is to work in a few miles at MP toward the end of long or
medium-long runs, and every few weeks to do a fairly long segment at
MP; I think I do 14 at MP about five weeks out. In fact if I can I run
a half-marathon at goal pace, to get the feel of race day (and water
stops etc.).

These are great for building confidence. Also, I use these as a "dress
rehearsal" for the marathon. So I try to wear exactly what I plan to
wear for race day, same shoes, drink the same fluids, and run it at the
same time of day.

Some people like to enter a race to run their MP runs. I've never been
able to work it out, but you could enter a marathon and just drop out
after your scheduled training run distance has been completed. A half
marathon could work too, but you may be tempted to go too fast.

Quoted message said:

From Pfitzinger's 18-week plan:

9 weeks out - 15 miles w/ 12 @ MP
5 weeks out - 17 miles w/ 14 @ MP
4 days out - 7 miles w/ 2 @ MP (dress rehearsal)

--
Phil M.

CP,

you want some pearls of wisdom? some real proper training technique?
you want to run fast? check out

http://www.saintralphmovie.com/

In viewing the trailer note the technique where you're tethered to the
bicycle. imo it's a winner!

Thanks all for your good input. Especially Lance with the unexpected,
very specific technical advice.

Dan Stumpus said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Concerns: avoiding injury (mostly avoiding track may help), and
especially peaking at the right time, not prematurely or postmaturely.
Concrete, quantitative advice on how to peak on date X by reducing
mileage and increasing speed (when, how much, what type) seems rare.

Well, this gets into philosophy (your specialty, I believe...).

Merely my degree. I dimly recall maybe some Plato vs. Aristotle way
back when between buckets-o-beer and b_ng hits, or Nietzsche vs.
Sartre, but certainly never Daniels vs. Lydiard.

Quoted message said:

Some folks just bash away for week after week [...]
I prefer to peak for a race or series of races

Right. And this year I'd like to aim for the latter, and in a fuller
sense like you present, adding speed late in the game rather than
AFAICT counting primarily on a taper to induce a peak.

Last year I did multiple things wrong, so it's difficult to attribute
each ill to its cause; but my sense is that my body didn't like
speedwork starting so early in the season (maybe May or June? 'twas
with a NY Road Runners class). Or more precisely: I *did* like the
speedwork at the time, in terms of adapting and become faster; but by
some time in August or September I think I was past my peak, stale,
heading downhill while trying to maintain or increase mileage for a
marathon. And I feel this not only hurt my running performance as fall
wore on, it may have contributed to injury.

[lots of good specifics snipped and saved]

Thanks Dan, this is the sort of schedule I suspect may work well for
me.

Quoted message said:

I rarely taper for these workout-races, maybe just run extra slow the
day before. You'll run 3-5% slower [...] Take it like a man...

Mostly I will, but I really do want to excel in one of the 1/2 M's so
may work some sort of mini-taper in there. Come to think of it, the
weekend of the 21k 3 weeks out from NYCM, I've got to attend a wedding
in Filthydelphia (no, The Vicar is neither groom nor bride) and
entertain my visiting folks, so there's just about an involuntary
mini-taper.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

[...]
(1) threshold work
(2) long intervals, e.g. 4xupper loop with a jog across the
transverse, or 3x lower loop
(3) speed/strength: reps no longer than 2 min with at least 2:1
recovery:work ratio. Hills are OK for this. If you're in the
park, use some of the hills in the north end, or cat hill.

Thanks for this and your other thoughts, Donovan. Just confirming, "at
least 2:1" means "2 or more recovery per 1 work", not "1 or more work
per 2 recovery" right?

Quoted message said:

One way to address these is to periodise (read Daniels, it's too
complicated to explain in a single post).

One of these days I clearly should. And Lydiard (though "which
Lydiard" seems to be open to question). I've gotten big doses of them
secondhand via other books and online, but am aware that original
sources occasionally vary a bit from someone's summary on letsrun of
what they remember from a discussion with their college roommate (who
didn't really *read* the book so much as showed up at the lecture) 15
years ago.

Quoted message said:

The great Aussie marathoner, Robert DeCastella had 3 key weekly
workouts: a long run, hill reps (he did these very hard) and his
quarters with fast floats.

I didn't realize he was from that southern hemisphere penal colony -
thx.

Didn't Shorter also have a pretty set weekly routine including long
run, long intervals, short intervals?

Quoted message said:

Are you doing the fifth avenue mile ? I'm going to be running that.

Planning to. The only uncertainty is that my trip to St Petersburg
(for a week, then another planned for Anders-Land) is on but I haven't
been able to lock in the dates with my company yet, and if it slips to
a week later then I'd miss that race. And I don't want to move it a
week earlier or I'd miss the Manhattan 21k.

Quoted message said:

The standard advice seems to be to use an exponential taper from
3 weeks out. This is pretty conservative [...]

Conservative meaning that some may choose a shorter taper?

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Merely my degree. I dimly recall maybe some Plato vs. Aristotle way
back when between buckets-o-beer and b_ng hits, or Nietzsche vs.
Sartre, but certainly never Daniels vs. Lydiard.

:-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some folks just bash away for week after week [...]
I prefer to peak for a race or series of races

Right. And this year I'd like to aim for the latter, and in a fuller
sense like you present, adding speed late in the game rather than
AFAICT counting primarily on a taper to induce a peak.

Mindless speed-dork is, well, mindless.

Quoted message said:

Last year I did multiple things wrong, so it's difficult to attribute
each ill to its cause;

Simple--just use post hoc ergo propter hoc

Quoted message said:

but my sense is that my body didn't like
speedwork starting so early in the season (maybe May or June? 'twas
with a NY Road Runners class). Or more precisely: I *did* like the
speedwork at the time, in terms of adapting and become faster; but by
some time in August or September I think I was past my peak, stale,
heading downhill while trying to maintain or increase mileage for a
marathon.

Live and learn. First mileage, then mild intensity, *then* speedwork.
Every time I hear about a runner who's doing speedwork and wants to increase
his mileage for his marathon, I almost choke on my White Russian w/eel.
Took me a couple of years to figure this out, and I had to read a book or
three for it to sink in.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I rarely taper for these workout-races, maybe just run extra slow the
day before. You'll run 3-5% slower [...] Take it like a man...

Quoted message said:

Mostly I will, but I really do want to excel in one of the 1/2 M's so
may work some sort of mini-taper in there. Come to think of it, the
weekend of the 21k 3 weeks out from NYCM, I've got to attend a wedding
in Filthydelphia (no, The Vicar is neither groom nor bride) and
entertain my visiting folks, so there's just about an involuntary
mini-taper.

Might I raise a scintilla of concern that a 1/2M all out is pretty hard for
3 weeks before your target 1.0M? You hafta throw in a recovery week after
that, then what, one half of a speed week before your taper? I think you
can pull it off, but be careful.

I would probably do the half at M pace.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The standard advice seems to be to use an exponential taper from
3 weeks out. This is pretty conservative [...]

Conservative meaning that some may choose a shorter taper?

I always did marathons at my "predicted" times based on other distances,
with a "mere" 7 to 10 day taper (I'm getting the hang of this quotation
thing). If you're not injured or whacked-out overworked, you'll be climbing
the walls after 4-5 days, brimming with energy. I've never seen any
research which shows that a 3 week taper is any better than a 7 - 10 day
taper. Donovan?

-- Dan