Road raging pillocks in Perth



On Feb 21, 10:34 am, Travis <[email protected]> wrote:

> > If that wasn't you and I have offended you, it was an unintended Travisty.

>
> > Theo
> > Moderation? You have moderation?

>
> Actually I think I misread your comment.


And besides which, I don't take offense easily. I tend to assume when
there is something offensive about what someone wrote that it was
unintentional, unless it was clearly deliberate, in which case I'm
usually more bemused than anything else about what this person's
problem is.

Life's short, I figure its best not to waste it on taking offense all
the time! :)

Travis
 
On Feb 21, 7:41 am, "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote:
> We now have two cyclists in the building but no shower. I'm trying to figure
> out how and where to put one in.


Just put the two cyclists in an office together on their own, with a
fan blowing towards an open window. Problem solved, I'll put the fee
on your next bill. :)

Graeme
 
Theo Bekkers wrote:

> We now have two cyclists in the building but no shower. I'm trying to figure
> out how and where to put one in.


Shipping container with one of those plastic modules you can buy?

Sorry, it has been a while so I do not have a reference. we were looking
at installing an ensuite in the back of our very large garage,but there
were these self contained modules (just add pipes and power) that you
could push in.
 
On 2008-02-20, [email protected] (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> On Feb 20, 3:10?pm, Graeme Dods <[email protected]> wrote:
>> This came up at work yesterday and I was pleasantly surprised by the
>> fact that everyone seemed to be of the opinion that cyclists have
>> every right to be on the road, and if you get delayed by them for a
>> wee while just chill out and live with it.

>
> How well does their opinion when they're standing around chatting at
> work reflect their behaviour when "anonymous" out there in their cars
> and stuck in traffic and they perceive themselves to be held up by
> some other-species cyclist?
>
> Does it then become "you have every right to be on the road, so long
> as it isn't the road I'm using or you're not holding me up at all"


I once met a cute girl who, when we started talking, revealed she
didn't mind cyclists, as long as they didn't hold her up. And she was
a country girl too, so presumably wouldn't be held up often.

Ugh. Funny how people become instantly less attractive.

--
TimC
> Bugger you guys.
> The babelfish is idempotent on the set above.

I'm afraid that isn't a very good pickup line either, Tim. - MaryG
 
On 2008-02-20, Theo Bekkers (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> AndrewJ wrote:
>
>> The key point here is that one of the cyclists got the registration
>> number
>> of the car. Very important to train yourself to note the number first,
>> <then> start yelling.

>
> Before the police did anything about it, the young lad presented himself at
> his local police station with his dad to report the incident and his part in
> it.
>
> You've got to give him (and/or his dad) marks for that.


Him, not necessarily. We don't know.

I suspect he turned up at home with a few dents on the car, and dad
asked him what happened, and he couldn't think of a suitable lie in
time. But I display bias against this guy because I think that anyone
who's capable of deliberately aiming at a bunch of fellow human beings
probably wouldn't have the moral makeup and be the kind of person who
would show up to a police station voluntarily.

What I would love to see, despite the fact it would never happen, is
that if you know x people took part in an illegal activity, and only
some of those x present themselves to the law (and then try to
disclaim more than their share of responsibility, passing it off to
another of the members who conveniently can't be found), then those
who do present themselves get all of the penalty that ought to be
assigned to the totality.

3 people in a car run over a bunch of cyclists, with each participant
attracting 2 years in jail (and is required to restitute the victims)
if they were all sentenced, and only 1 turns up to police? He gets 6
years in jail, and pays the full compensation amount himself.

Would hopefully encourage people not to cover for their stupid mates.
Course, they'd be less likely to turn up to police at all, but you
could get around that by fooling with the prisoner's dilemma. Own up
yourself, and get off lighter. Be dobbed in, get a heavier penalty.
Fail to dob in people, get a heavier still penalty.

--
TimC
Using top down development, you never have any working code. Using bottom
up development, you never solve the problem. -- John Kelly in debian-user
 
Travis wrote:
> On Feb 21, 7:30 am, "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The Travis that initiated this thread and said
>> "There is the usual commentary section where people are making the
>> usual nasty remarks about packs of lycra louts who break the law by
>> riding two abreast causing delays to busy and important people in
>> cars.
>>
>> Travis"
>>
>> If that wasn't you and I have offended you, it was an unintended
>> Travisty.
>>
>> Theo
>> Moderation? You have moderation?

>
> Actually I think I misread your comment.
>
> Were you saying, when you said you disagreed with me, that you
> disagreed with the comments I'd made at the newspaper's site (which
> was my original assumption, though not what I currently think you
> meant) or that you disagreed with my comment in aus.bicycles that the
> comments were full of people complaining about rampaging hordes of
> cyclists travelling two abreast, which I think is what you actually
> meant.


The latter.

> If you read through the early comments you'll find quite a lot of
> people expressing outrage that these cyclists, as well as many other
> bunches of cyclists they had come across, were traveling two abreast,
> many of them obviously under the mistaken impression that this is
> actually illegal.


More than half of those were from cyclists. :)

Theo
 
Travis wrote:
> On Feb 21, 10:34 am, Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> If that wasn't you and I have offended you, it was an unintended
>>> Travisty.


>> Actually I think I misread your comment.

>
> And besides which, I don't take offense easily. I tend to assume when
> there is something offensive about what someone wrote that it was
> unintentional, unless it was clearly deliberate, in which case I'm
> usually more bemused than anything else about what this person's
> problem is.
>
> Life's short, I figure its best not to waste it on taking offense all
> the time! :)


I went to a lot of trouble to use the nearly-correctly-spelt word
"Travisty", and apparently it was wasted. Oh well... :)

Theo
 
On Feb 21, 5:17 pm, "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I went to a lot of trouble to use the nearly-correctly-spelt word
> "Travisty", and apparently it was wasted. Oh well... :)
>
> Theo


Don't you just hate it when some inconsiderate jerk doesn't LOL at
your puns? Makes you feel like running him and his bike over in your
car, doesn't it Theo? ;-)

Travis
 
Travis wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
>> I went to a lot of trouble to use the nearly-correctly-spelt word
>> "Travisty", and apparently it was wasted. Oh well... :)


> Don't you just hate it when some inconsiderate jerk doesn't LOL at
> your puns? Makes you feel like running him and his bike over in your
> car, doesn't it Theo? ;-)


Or my new 4WD ute. Actually, I usually think of it as a failure on my part,
not theirs.

Theo
 
TimC said:
Would hopefully encourage people not to cover for their stupid mates.
Course, they'd be less likely to turn up to police at all, but you
could get around that by fooling with the prisoner's dilemma. Own up
yourself, and get off lighter. Be dobbed in, get a heavier penalty.
Fail to dob in people, get a heavier still penalty.

In a logical world, the rozzers are appealing for witnesses:

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=59334
Witness call follows alleged cycle rage attack. 20th February 2008, 6:45 WST

Police are appealing for witnesses after a 19-year-old Mindarie man allegedly drove into a group of four cyclists in Iluka early yesterday. One of the cyclists was knocked off his bike and went over the bonnet of the car.

Police will allege the four cyclists were riding on Marmion Avenue when a red Mitsubishi Lancer drove up from behind and beeped its horn.

The riders approached the driver, tapping on this window at the intersection of Burns Beach Road and the sedan then allegedly accelerated in reverse, clipping one of the cyclists, before going forward and allegedly striking another rider who went over the bonnet. The car then left the scene.

A Currambine cyclist, 27, suffered a broken ankle and broken thumb.

A WA police spokeswoman said this morning that police had spoken to some people who saw the incident at 7.40am, but more eyewitness accounts were needed as discrepancies remained between what the driver and witnesses were saying.

Police are yet to charge the driver. Anyone who witnessed the incident is urged to contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000.
 
TimC wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote


>> Before the police did anything about it, the young lad presented
>> himself at his local police station with his dad to report the
>> incident and his part in it.
>>
>> You've got to give him (and/or his dad) marks for that.


> Him, not necessarily. We don't know.


That's why I said "or his dad".

> I suspect he turned up at home with a few dents on the car, and dad
> asked him what happened, and he couldn't think of a suitable lie in
> time. But I display bias against this guy because I think that anyone
> who's capable of deliberately aiming at a bunch of fellow human beings
> probably wouldn't have the moral makeup and be the kind of person who
> would show up to a police station voluntarily.


We don't know that either. I suspect that the scenario may have been a
little skewed in the telling. Try this:-

Young Yobbo toots at stupid cyclists in his way to demonstrate to his mates
in the car that he actually has a **** and it is a really lbig one. (you
with me so far?) There is a red light in front of him and he stops. Cyclists
catch up, knock on his window and politely advise him that he was placing
them in great personal danger with his tooting and that they were not
breaking any laws by riding two abreast (it didn't actually say whether they
were or not). Young Yobbo is so incenced by this that he runs over several
cyclists.

I have a problem at this point. I personally very much doubt that the
cyclists were quite as polite as they said they were. I've been there and I
wasn't.

Young Yobbo puts it in reverse and backs over a cyclist. Hmm. why would he
do that? Was there perhaps one of the polite cyclists blocking him from
going forward? Backwards is generally not the quickest method of escape.
Young Yobbo stops going backwards, aware that he has hit something, and goes
forward, runs over another cyclist. Was this perhaps the cyclist that caused
him to back up in the first place? Maybe even moved in front of him to
attempt to block his escape.

Maybe you can suggest a different scenario, and maybe the real story is
something else again. We'll probably never know.

> 3 people in a car run over a bunch of cyclists, with each participant
> attracting 2 years in jail (and is required to restitute the victims)
> if they were all sentenced, and only 1 turns up to police? He gets 6
> years in jail, and pays the full compensation amount himself.


You think it fair and just to punish people for what other people did?

> Would hopefully encourage people not to cover for their stupid mates.
> Course, they'd be less likely to turn up to police at all, but you
> could get around that by fooling with the prisoner's dilemma. Own up
> yourself, and get off lighter. Be dobbed in, get a heavier penalty.
> Fail to dob in people, get a heavier still penalty.


Not sure I agree with you on this last bit.

Theo
 
Travis wrote:
> No doubt we'll be hearing a lot more about this around here, but
> police are currently interviewing a 19 year old who alledgedly mowed
> down a group of cyclists in Perth's northern suburbs this morning,
> fortunately causing only light injuries.
>
> http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=145&ContentID=59164
>
> There is the usual commentary section where people are making the
> usual nasty remarks about packs of lycra louts who break the law by
> riding two abreast causing delays to busy and important people in
> cars.
>
> Travis


Apparently my reply within the discussion topic was too offensive, as it
has been removed. What do you think? My reply is below. This is the
extended version, I had to remove a few lines to fit within the 5000
character limit on TheWest:


Why is it so difficult for bicycle riders and drivers to get along in
this country? It is truly an embarrassment to see yet another series of
blog posts containing opinions along the lines of "bicycles should be
registered". No other developed countries have a registration scheme
for bikes, why can't we let this absurd idea go? If bicycles are
registered, we should also register wheel chairs, skate boards, shopping
trolleys. After all, these wheeled tools are also human powered and can
prove a danger if used inappropriately.

Those complaining about cyclists riding two abreast, have you considered
that this is a form of self preservation on the part of the cyclists,
rather than a deliberate attempt to hold motorists up? How many
cyclists have you passed, or have you seen passed at close distance
because the motorist was able to "just squeeze" past the cyclist,
instead of waiting 10 seconds for a safer opportunity to pass? Having a
vehicle quickly slip by at a distance of centimetres is an extremely
nerve racking experience for cyclists. So, many will deliberately
prevent it from happening. By riding two abreast, or riding in the
centre of a lane (both perfectly legal activities) cyclists are actively
preventing motorists from passing them at an unsafe distance. If
motorists weren't so aggressive towards cyclists and completely moved
into another lane when passing them *AS IS REQUIRED BY AUSTRALIAN LAWS*,
then cyclists could afford not to ride in such a selfish manner.

Cyclists running red lights is an unacceptable problem. As a cyclist
who commutes, a motorcycle rider and regular car driver, I can safely
say that that I see far more cyclists run red lights than car drivers.
That said, I see far more motorists exceeding speed limits, tailgating
each other, illegally passing cyclists at unsafe distances, etc, than I
see cyclists running red lights. Those who contemplate, or even
jokingly suggest running cyclists off the road when you see a rider
break a law, why don't you also contemplate, or jokingly suggest,
pulling out a gun and having a shot at any motorists you see breaking
any road laws, including family, friends, or even yourself. Severe,
beyond stupid, incredibly dangerous, as well as totally and utterly
unjustified? I agree. What's the difference between shooting at a
motorist, and deliberately driving your several tonne piece of machinery
at a person on a bicycle? I see none. Both are inherently dangerous,
and you're likely to end up getting someone seriously injured or killed.
Of course I am not suggesting you shoot a gun at anyone, I am simply
drawing what I see to be a realistic comparison.

I have a simple solution to all these issues. Cyclists and pedestrians
are the most vulnerable users of our roads, therefore, motorists should
be completely responsible for not causing injury to these road users.
Some European countries already have such laws in place. Motorists are
legally required to take into account the unpredictable manoeuvres that
cyclists and/or pedestrians may demonstrate (such as tripping over,
loosing balance, etc), and are therefore held at fault for almost all
motor vehicle vs pedestrian/cyclist collisions. The result: Motorists
slow down, give cyclists and pedestrians lots of room, making naturally
aspirated transport a far more pleasant experience. As a result of the
more pleasant experience, more people take up cycling and walking,
equalling less cars on the road, equalling a more pleasant driving
experience for those that must use motorised transport. Makes sense
doesn't it?

We live in a country whose population is embarrassingly obese, whose
city streets are becoming more and more clogged, and whose children are
hermits who prefer to stay indoors playing computer games than heading
out catch up with friends. We live in a world where melting ice caps is
becoming more and more apparent, and where petrol prices are sky
rocketing. Why is it that two forms of transport that are immediately
available to many, many people, and would aid in solving all these
problems, that is being embraced by developed countries all over the
world, is still shunned upon by so many of our population?
 
TimC wrote:
> On 2008-02-20, [email protected] (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> On Feb 20, 3:10?pm, Graeme Dods <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> This came up at work yesterday and I was pleasantly surprised by the
>>> fact that everyone seemed to be of the opinion that cyclists have
>>> every right to be on the road, and if you get delayed by them for a
>>> wee while just chill out and live with it.

>> How well does their opinion when they're standing around chatting at
>> work reflect their behaviour when "anonymous" out there in their cars
>> and stuck in traffic and they perceive themselves to be held up by
>> some other-species cyclist?
>>
>> Does it then become "you have every right to be on the road, so long
>> as it isn't the road I'm using or you're not holding me up at all"

>
> I once met a cute girl who, when we started talking, revealed she
> didn't mind cyclists, as long as they didn't hold her up. And she was
> a country girl too, so presumably wouldn't be held up often.
>
> Ugh. Funny how people become instantly less attractive.
>


Noticed that myself.:)
 
On 2008-02-25, Sir Lex (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Apparently my reply within the discussion topic was too offensive, as it
> has been removed. What do you think? My reply is below. This is the
> extended version, I had to remove a few lines to fit within the 5000
> character limit on TheWest:


<snip>

Why? Because it doesn't fit in with "Is your News Limited"'s agenda.

--
TimC
My cats are forbidden from walking on my computer keyboard on the desk
when I'm asdfjjhhkl;ljfd.;oier' puyykmm4hbdm9lo9j USING IT. --unknown
 
"Sir Lex" wrote:
>
> Apparently my reply within the discussion topic was too offensive, as it
> has been removed. What do you think? My reply is below. This is the
> extended version, I had to remove a few lines to fit within the 5000
> character limit on TheWest:
>
>
> Why is it so difficult for bicycle riders and drivers to get along in this
> country? It is truly an embarrassment to see yet another series of blog
> posts containing opinions along the lines of "bicycles should be
> registered". No other developed countries have a registration scheme for
> bikes, why can't we let this absurd idea go?....


<snip(regretfully)>

> We live in a country whose population is embarrassingly obese, whose city
> streets are becoming more and more clogged, and whose children are hermits
> who prefer to stay indoors playing computer games than heading out catch
> up with friends. We live in a world where melting ice caps is becoming
> more and more apparent, and where petrol prices are sky rocketing. Why is
> it that two forms of transport that are immediately available to many,
> many people, and would aid in solving all these problems, that is being
> embraced by developed countries all over the world, is still shunned upon
> by so many of our population?


You have hit the nail on the head, of course. We can all see it, even many
car drivers. But so few are prepared to make the changes that are needed.
This is the role ofr some serious government encouragement a la the European
approach, eg the Netherlands
http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/pivot/entry.php?id=167

Your letter should be bottled as compulsory reading for every political
leader!


--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)
 
PeteSig wrote:

> You have hit the nail on the head, of course. We can all see it, even
> many car drivers. But so few are prepared to make the changes that
> are needed. This is the role ofr some serious government
> encouragement a la the European approach, eg the Netherlands
> http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/pivot/entry.php?id=167
>
> Your letter should be bottled as compulsory reading for every
> political leader!


Interesting line from your url
"Between 1924 and 1940, the Dutch government heavily taxed bicycle owners,
using the money to build what is now a nationwide network of bike lanes and
trails"

That will bring a few howls from the gallery. What bicycle infrastructure
would sir like to buy? :)

The flatness of the countryside makes it possible for everyone to cycle, and
even a bakkie can carry huge loads on level ground. As the article says
(remembering it originates from the US) the narrow streets and close
distances due to high population density makes everything within bicycle
reach. When I was a kid in Holland (I left in 1953 aged 10) everyone rode,
and there were few cars. There was a huge bicycle infrastructure even then,
with cycle lanes on both sides of every street that was likely to carry even
a moderate amount of motor traffic.

Theo
 
"Theo Bekkers" wrote:

> Interesting line from your url
> "Between 1924 and 1940, the Dutch government heavily taxed bicycle owners,
> using the money to build what is now a nationwide network of bike lanes
> and trails"
>
> That will bring a few howls from the gallery. What bicycle infrastructure
> would sir like to buy? :)
>
> The flatness of the countryside makes it possible for everyone to cycle,
> and even a bakkie can carry huge loads on level ground. As the article
> says (remembering it originates from the US) the narrow streets and close
> distances due to high population density makes everything within bicycle
> reach. When I was a kid in Holland (I left in 1953 aged 10) everyone rode,
> and there were few cars. There was a huge bicycle infrastructure even
> then, with cycle lanes on both sides of every street that was likely to
> carry even a moderate amount of motor traffic.


Yes, I was looking for another on-line document I had read, from some Dutch
transport planners, but can't find it.

They made it very clear (supported with graphs of data) that the Dutch
cycling use was declining rapidly during the 50s, 60s and early 70s, with a
mirror image increase in cyclist road deaths. The rise of the Dutch auto
culture was brought to a halt by the 1973 oil shock, and since then their
attitude to cars, cities and people has changed dramatically. Cycle use has
climbed steadily (not quite to the levels of the early 50s when you were
there, Theo, but about 3-4 times more than it was in the early 70s) and
there has been a corresponding decline in cycle deaths. And guess what? All
without the need to resort to helmet compulsion.

This document set out very clearly the whole range of traffic, legal and
social changes that have been used to change Dutch transport preferences and
keep their cities far more sustainable and human-friendly. Start with the
presumption that all drivers of motor vehicles must legally atke action to
avoid collisions with cyclists and pedestrians, add the heay taxes and
charges on ownershi and use of motor vehicles in cities, town planning
controls to ensure cities are kept to a high density, closure of streets for
human powered transport etc, etc.....

It's a lot more than simply a flat landscape. Oh and by the way, both parts
of Perth and Melbourne's northern, southern and western suburbs have a
relatively flat terrian, much like Amsterdam!

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)
 
On Feb 26, 9:57 pm, "PeteSig" <[email protected]> wrote:
> It's a lot more than simply a flat landscape. Oh and by the way, both parts
> of Perth and Melbourne's northern, southern and western suburbs have a
> relatively flat terrian, much like Amsterdam!


From my few trips to the Netherlands, I would say Perth is positively
mountainous in comparison. On my one brief cycle ride there I was
happy to be given (by the hotel where I was staying) a typical Dutch
"sit up and beg" bike as it was perfect for the terrain. However I did
find a couple of flaws; one in the design of the bike and one in the
design of the Netherlands. First, you may need a lower gear than the
standard 3 speed offers if riding into the wind, and second, the place
is so flat that when the wind picks up there's nowhere to hide!

The cycle paths were fairly good, but at each junction (and even on
the outskirts of a small place like Veldhoven there were a lot of
them) you were supposed to track back up the side road and wait at the
crossing. This lengthened and slowed the journey by a fair bit. In the
end I rode on the road and just joined in with the cars, it was much
less hassle.

Graeme
 
Graeme Dods wrote:

> From my few trips to the Netherlands, I would say Perth is positively
> mountainous in comparison. On my one brief cycle ride there I was
> happy to be given (by the hotel where I was staying) a typical Dutch
> "sit up and beg" bike as it was perfect for the terrain. However I did
> find a couple of flaws; one in the design of the bike and one in the
> design of the Netherlands. First, you may need a lower gear than the
> standard 3 speed offers if riding into the wind, and second, the place
> is so flat that when the wind picks up there's nowhere to hide!


How do you think they powered all those windmills? :)

> The cycle paths were fairly good, but at each junction (and even on
> the outskirts of a small place like Veldhoven there were a lot of
> them)


Snap! My grandfather lived in Veldhoven, my father was born there, and my
aunt still lives in the same house.

Theo
 
PeteSig wrote:

> Yes, I was looking for another on-line document I had read, from some
> Dutch transport planners, but can't find it.
>
> They made it very clear (supported with graphs of data) that the Dutch
> cycling use was declining rapidly during the 50s, 60s and early 70s,
> with a mirror image increase in cyclist road deaths. The rise of the
> Dutch auto culture was brought to a halt by the 1973 oil shock, and
> since then their attitude to cars, cities and people has changed
> dramatically. Cycle use has climbed steadily (not quite to the levels
> of the early 50s when you were there, Theo, but about 3-4 times more
> than it was in the early 70s) and there has been a corresponding
> decline in cycle deaths. And guess what? All without the need to
> resort to helmet compulsion.


What? It's not helmets that save lives?

> It's a lot more than simply a flat landscape. Oh and by the way, both
> parts of Perth and Melbourne's northern, southern and western suburbs
> have a relatively flat terrian, much like Amsterdam!


No way is that true of Perth Pete. Unless you're following the river or the
coast, Perth is mountainous compared to Amsterdam.

Fairly flat where my son lives in Cranbourne Vic.

Theo