Ritalin Helps Beat Cancer Fatigue

  • Thread starter Marciosos6 Probertiosos6
  • Start date



Roger Schlafly wrote:
> "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>>>Now you have to recognize that the rapid uptake of injected or snorted
>>>>ritalin, met, etc. is what makes it addictive, and that oral use at

>
> the
>
>>>>prescribed doses does not make it addictive.
>>>
>>>Just show me the published scientific paper.

>>
>>... You may not switch the burden of proof at this time.

>
>
> I am not. You made the claim above. I don't believe it. I cannot find
> it in any published scientific paper.


The burden of proof lies with someone who is trying to assert a
positive. You are asserting that prescribed use of Mph is addictive. It
is up to you to prove that and produce the articles that you claim to exist.
 
"nknisley" <[email protected]> wrote
> And, to bring us back to Roger's argument:
> - Treating cancer-related fatigue is methylphenidate is inappropriate
> because there's no proof that a methylphenidate deficiency is involved.


Not my argument. Cancer patients often take all sorts of weird drugs
that have no relation to any deficiency they might have. No objection
from me. To be specific, it may very well be appropriate for a cancer
patient to take methylphenidate.

> Of course, it seems to me, using Roger's reasoning, all patients who
> choose to continue to use these medications are addicted to them.


Some are, some aren't. Try asking them to quit, and see what happens.
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote
> > > > > You are also assuming that the subjects were not addicted. Maybe
> > > > > they were and maybe they weren't. The study only says that they
> > > > > all failed to get off the drugs when given the opportunity.
> > > > Is that your definition of "addictive"? ...
> > > No, but it is a good clue when we are discussing mind-altering drugs.

> > ..these drugs also have effects on the
> > brain....birth control pills, antihistimines, asthma meds, insulin...all
> > impact the brain as well...are you suggesting that those who use these

are
> > addicted because they fail to get off of them when "given the

> opportunity"?
>
> Some people probably would. But those drugs only have a minor
> effect on the brain, and people take them for other (non-brain) effects.


Hmm...what about those who ingest antihistimines for their stimulating
effects? They are abusing the OTC meds, but according to this line, cannot
be addicting....

....however, your next line refutes your own statement..


> Addiction is much more of a hazard when people take drugs solely
> for their effect on the brain.



Are you just as vocal in decrying all stimulants taken solely for the effect
on the brain? I expect to see identical articles posted by you demanding
that all caffeinated products, all chocolate (has the same chemical as
marijuana), all alcohol products be treated in the same manner that you
demand medically prescribed ADHD meds treated...

To do *anything less* would point to your hypocricy....

Buny
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote
> > The "either/or" attitude is what truly sucks...you either take no
> > medications, or you are addicted to drugs....what happened to the most
> > typical patient, the one in the middle area?

>
> Not all meds are addicting. Lots of people take vitamins every day,
> but I doubt that anyone is addicted to vitamins.



<nodding> "Not all meds are addicting"....and that can include meds for ADHD
when taken as prescribed and monitored by one's physician..

Buny
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "nknisley" <[email protected]> wrote
> > And, to bring us back to Roger's argument:
> > - Treating cancer-related fatigue is methylphenidate is inappropriate
> > because there's no proof that a methylphenidate deficiency is involved.

>
> Not my argument. Cancer patients often take all sorts of weird drugs
> that have no relation to any deficiency they might have. No objection
> from me. To be specific, it may very well be appropriate for a cancer
> patient to take methylphenidate.


....unless that patient has ADHD...


>
> > Of course, it seems to me, using Roger's reasoning, all patients who
> > choose to continue to use these medications are addicted to them.

>
> Some are, some aren't. Try asking them to quit, and see what happens.



You ask a diabetic, and asthmatic, a hypertensive, an allergic, a migraineur
to "just stop taking your meds", and when they say, "no," are you going to
say that they are addicts?


You *are* stating categorically that you have, and will, *refuse all
medications*?

Buny
 
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:10:32 -0500, nknisley
<[email protected]> wrote:

>To follow Block's black-and-white argument to, IMO, it's absurd
>conclusion, you'd have to say, for example:
>
>- Treating arthritis with anti-inflammatory drugs is inappropriate,
>because arthritis is not a anti-inflammatory chemical deficiency.
>
>- Treating infections with antibiotics is inappropriate, because
>infections aren't a antibiotic deficiency.
>
>- Treating high blood pressure with diuretics is inappropriate, since
>hypertension isn't caused by a diuretic deficiency.
>
>- Treating congestive heart failure with ACE inhibitors is
>inappropriate, since congestive heart failure isn't caused by an ACE
>inhibitor deficiency.
>
>- Treating pain with aspirin, acetaminophen or ibuprofen is
>inappropriate, since pain isn't caused by a deficiency in the chemicals
>in any of those medications.
>
>- Treating asthma with steroid inhalers isn't appropriate, since asthma
>is not a steroid deficiency.
>

this is your straw man diversion


all of the above ..with the exception of pain..
are biologically identifiable diseases..

and pain can in many cases be traced to something concrete.

ADHD is not a biological disease and unlike the other genuine medical
problems you list there are no objective
biological markers used to confirm its existence..


You cannot possible follow Dr Blochs argument to any conclusion when
it is perfectly clear you do not understand it to begin with..
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "nknisley" <[email protected]> wrote
> > And, to bring us back to Roger's argument:
> > - Treating cancer-related fatigue is methylphenidate is inappropriate
> > because there's no proof that a methylphenidate deficiency is involved.

>
> Not my argument. Cancer patients often take all sorts of weird drugs
> that have no relation to any deficiency they might have. No objection
> from me. To be specific, it may very well be appropriate for a cancer
> patient to take methylphenidate.
>
> > Of course, it seems to me, using Roger's reasoning, all patients who
> > choose to continue to use these medications are addicted to them.

>
> Some are, some aren't. Try asking them to quit, and see what happens.
>


Don't let them suck you into their little games.

A drug is addictive owing to it's chemical properties.

It makes no difference how much or how little one uses....the drug itself is
addictive.

Makes no difference whether you got the MPH on the street corner or via a
prescription.

If a drug has addictive properties...those susceptible to addiction going to
be hooked..

No amount of wishful thinking or propaganda posted by pariah and co ever
going to alter the fact that stimulants are addicting.
 
>Subject: Re: Ritalin Helps Beat Cancer Fatigue
>From: "L" [email protected]
>Date: 12/19/2003 7:04 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "nknisley" <[email protected]> wrote
>> > And, to bring us back to Roger's argument:
>> > - Treating cancer-related fatigue is methylphenidate is inappropriate
>> > because there's no proof that a methylphenidate deficiency is involved.

>>
>> Not my argument. Cancer patients often take all sorts of weird drugs
>> that have no relation to any deficiency they might have. No objection
>> from me. To be specific, it may very well be appropriate for a cancer
>> patient to take methylphenidate.
>>
>> > Of course, it seems to me, using Roger's reasoning, all patients who
>> > choose to continue to use these medications are addicted to them.

>>
>> Some are, some aren't. Try asking them to quit, and see what happens.
>>

>
>Don't let them suck you into their little games.
>
>A drug is addictive owing to it's chemical properties.
>
>It makes no difference how much or how little one uses....the drug itself is
>addictive.
>
>Makes no difference whether you got the MPH on the street corner or via a
>prescription.
>
>If a drug has addictive properties...those susceptible to addiction going to
>be hooked..
>
>No amount of wishful thinking or propaganda posted by pariah and co ever
>going to alter the fact that stimulants are addicting.


Correct!

Jan
 
"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:10:32 -0500, nknisley
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >To follow Block's black-and-white argument to, IMO, it's absurd
> >conclusion, you'd have to say, for example:
> >
> >- Treating arthritis with anti-inflammatory drugs is inappropriate,
> >because arthritis is not a anti-inflammatory chemical deficiency.
> >
> >- Treating infections with antibiotics is inappropriate, because
> >infections aren't a antibiotic deficiency.
> >
> >- Treating high blood pressure with diuretics is inappropriate, since
> >hypertension isn't caused by a diuretic deficiency.
> >
> >- Treating congestive heart failure with ACE inhibitors is
> >inappropriate, since congestive heart failure isn't caused by an ACE
> >inhibitor deficiency.
> >
> >- Treating pain with aspirin, acetaminophen or ibuprofen is
> >inappropriate, since pain isn't caused by a deficiency in the chemicals
> >in any of those medications.
> >
> >- Treating asthma with steroid inhalers isn't appropriate, since asthma
> >is not a steroid deficiency.
> >

> this is your straw man diversion
>
>
> all of the above ..with the exception of pain..
> are biologically identifiable diseases..
>
> and pain can in many cases be traced to something concrete.


Most cases it cannot, yet the dcotor does not insist the patient is not in
pain...what do you do when pain cannot be "traced back to something
concrete"?

Buny
 
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:59:11 -0600, "SumBuny"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:10:32 -0500, nknisley
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >To follow Block's black-and-white argument to, IMO, it's absurd
>> >conclusion, you'd have to say, for example:
>> >
>> >- Treating arthritis with anti-inflammatory drugs is inappropriate,
>> >because arthritis is not a anti-inflammatory chemical deficiency.
>> >
>> >- Treating infections with antibiotics is inappropriate, because
>> >infections aren't a antibiotic deficiency.
>> >
>> >- Treating high blood pressure with diuretics is inappropriate, since
>> >hypertension isn't caused by a diuretic deficiency.
>> >
>> >- Treating congestive heart failure with ACE inhibitors is
>> >inappropriate, since congestive heart failure isn't caused by an ACE
>> >inhibitor deficiency.
>> >
>> >- Treating pain with aspirin, acetaminophen or ibuprofen is
>> >inappropriate, since pain isn't caused by a deficiency in the chemicals
>> >in any of those medications.
>> >
>> >- Treating asthma with steroid inhalers isn't appropriate, since asthma
>> >is not a steroid deficiency.
>> >

>> this is your straw man diversion
>>
>>
>> all of the above ..with the exception of pain..
>> are biologically identifiable diseases..
>>
>> and pain can in many cases be traced to something concrete.

>
>Most cases it cannot,


In some cases it cannot..I am not sure where the evidence is for
suggesting in "most" cases it cannot..


>yet the dcotor does not insist the patient is not in
>pain...what do you do when pain cannot be "traced back to something
>concrete"?


Iam not too sure in the USA where cash..lines of credit and insurance
determine the type of treatment if any..
but in the UK..where treatment is provided on the basis of clinical
need..a common procedure is to refer the patient to a Pain Clinic.
 
"SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote
> You ask a diabetic, and asthmatic, a hypertensive, an allergic, a

migraineur
> to "just stop taking your meds", and when they say, "no," are you going to
> say that they are addicts?


There is a movement to redefine "addiction" so that you can only be
addicted to something that is bad for you. That way, no prescribed
drug could ever be addictive. (I don't think that such a change would
be helpful.)

> You *are* stating categorically that you have, and will, *refuse all
> medications*?


No. I take something on rare occasions.
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote
> > You ask a diabetic, and asthmatic, a hypertensive, an allergic, a

> migraineur
> > to "just stop taking your meds", and when they say, "no," are you going

to
> > say that they are addicts?

>
> There is a movement to redefine "addiction" so that you can only be
> addicted to something that is bad for you. That way, no prescribed
> drug could ever be addictive. (I don't think that such a change would
> be helpful.)


There may be such a "movement" afoot, but I don't believe any of these
respondents subscribe to it.

Addiction, by its very nature, implies an abuse of drugs, whether legally
prescribed or otherwise. The fundamental argument/debate in this thread is
whether this particular drug is likely to cause such abuse when taken in
prescribed dosages in the prescribed manner.

Virtually everybody but yourself seems to feel/believe/know that it is NOT
subject to abuse in virtually all cases where the person doesn't have
addictive traits in the first place. They are constantly asking you to
provide evidence that it is addictive within those parameters.

I would be curious to see any such evidence myself. Because I feel my mother
had hypochondriac tendencies, I myself have shied away from medication in
general for fear of becoming reliant on unnecessary drugs.

But that doesn't mean I'll turn them down if they seem efficacious - to me -
and are recommended/prescribed by my medical professionals.

> > You *are* stating categorically that you have, and will, *refuse all
> > medications*?

>
> No. I take something on rare occasions.


So then it's a matter of degree as to whether one is defined as "addicted"?
Do you take different medications each and every time you feel the occasion
to use them? Aspirin one time, acetameniphin the next? Tums one time,
Rolaids the next? I'm willing to bet that you tend to take the same
medicine, even the same brand, every time you DO feel the need for it,
correct?

Your concern seems overly-exaggerated to me. I am aware of no child who
demanded the return to Ritalin when removed from it simply because they miss
the rush. I see many posts here that say "if that doesn't work for you, try
this, this or this instead".

Unless you are defining addiction as "the desire (not chemically-compelled)
to ingest a substance for a particular effect", I just don't see your
concern.

If you do use the definition as above, perhaps you are confusing "desire"
with "apparent necessity". I think it safe to say that the majority of us
would happily forego medication for medically-proven alternatives, up to and
including surgery if neccessary. Few people want to live in a
chemically-altered state on a permanent basis.

But if that's what it takes for us, we'll do it - not because we want the
drug, but because without it we are demonstrably sub-par in one or more of
the three major life arenas, to our and other's detriment.

We were that way BEFORE we began taking the drug, and removing ourselves
from it causes no typical withdrawal symptoms (that I'm aware of).

You are the only person I'm aware of who defines "being normal" as
"addicted" because of the means used to achieve that normality. Most of our
"rush" comes from sheer excitement that we ARE acting normally.

And that wears off pretty quickly. We go on with our "new" lives, for the
most part stable and well-adjusted (after likely co-morbid symptoms have
been addressed), and think about our medication not at all until reminded to
take them.

If that's "addiction", I'll take it. It damned sure doesn't follow *my*
definition of it, though!

--
Jon Quixote
What is axiomatic frequently isn't.
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]> wrote
> > > > Now you have to recognize that the rapid uptake of injected or

snorted
> > > > ritalin, met, etc. is what makes it addictive, and that oral use at

> the
> > > > prescribed doses does not make it addictive.
> > > Just show me the published scientific paper.

> > ... You may not switch the burden of proof at this time.

>
> I am not. You made the claim above. I don't believe it. I cannot find
> it in any published scientific paper.
>
> > Either provide documentation of a claim you made a gadzillion times, or
> > admit that you are flatuating.

>
> I am not flatuating!


Sorry, but you are wrong on two counts.

First, your selective snipping removed that portion of my post wherrein I
pointed out, quite corectly, that you have contiuously alleged that Ritalin,
when taken as prescribed, is addictive. Thus, you have made a postivie
statement, and bear the burden of proof.

Furthermore, youhave been repeatedly asked to provide proof of your
position, and you have steadfastly refused to do so. Thus, the burden
remains on you on this issue.

As for the second point where you are wrong...

pew....
 
"Jan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Subject: Re: Ritalin Helps Beat Cancer Fatigue
> >From: "L" [email protected]
> >Date: 12/19/2003 7:04 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: <[email protected]>
> >
> >"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> "nknisley" <[email protected]> wrote
> >> > And, to bring us back to Roger's argument:
> >> > - Treating cancer-related fatigue is methylphenidate is inappropriate
> >> > because there's no proof that a methylphenidate deficiency is

involved.
> >>
> >> Not my argument. Cancer patients often take all sorts of weird drugs
> >> that have no relation to any deficiency they might have. No objection
> >> from me. To be specific, it may very well be appropriate for a cancer
> >> patient to take methylphenidate.
> >>
> >> > Of course, it seems to me, using Roger's reasoning, all patients who
> >> > choose to continue to use these medications are addicted to them.
> >>
> >> Some are, some aren't. Try asking them to quit, and see what happens.
> >>

> >
> >Don't let them suck you into their little games.
> >
> >A drug is addictive owing to it's chemical properties.
> >
> >It makes no difference how much or how little one uses....the drug itself

is
> >addictive.
> >
> >Makes no difference whether you got the MPH on the street corner or via a
> >prescription.
> >
> >If a drug has addictive properties...those susceptible to addiction going

to
> >be hooked..
> >
> >No amount of wishful thinking or propaganda posted by pariah and co ever
> >going to alter the fact that stimulants are addicting.

>
> Correct!


LIAR.
 
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:29:03 GMT, "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Edited for clarity
>
>
>> > "jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...

>
>>>Dr. Mary Ann Block

>
>BTW, in some recent readsing, I came accross this little gem....
>
>http://www.fumento.com/adhdblock.html
>
>Imagine if anyone who is pro med used an expert that was this tainted.....


Agreed..

Michael Fumento must be one of the most tainted authors on the
planet..

whilst his payed for attack on Mary Block might not be up there
with his "myth of heterosexual aids" or his propaganda for the
pesticides industry its pretty low..

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Hudson_Institute

Hudson Institute
From Disinfopedia, the encyclopedia of propaganda.

The Hudson Institute, based in Indiana, is a hard-right activist think
tank that advocates the abolition of government-backed Social Security
and an end to corporate income taxes.


Funding
Between 1987 and 2001, the Institute received $12,041,203 in 183
separate grants from only -- foundations:[1]


Castle Rock Foundation
Earhart Foundation
JM Foundation
Koch Family Foundations (David H. Koch Foundation)
John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation
Scaife Foundations (Scaife Family, Sarah Mellon Scaife, Carthage)
Smith Richardson Foundation

The Hudson Institute's IRS Form 990 for the financial year ending on
September 30, 2001 showed total income of $7,818,439, most of which
came in large grants. Other known funders include:


Ag Processing Inc
American Cyanamid
Archer Daniels Midland
Cargill
Ciba-Geigy
ConAgra
DowElanco
DuPont
Exxon Mobil
HJ Heinz
Lilly Endowment
McDonalds
Monsanto
National Agricultural Chemical Association
Novartis
Proctor & Gamble
Sunkist Growers
United Agri Products

Personnel

Global Food Issues
Michael Fumento, senior fellow


Michael Fumento
From Disinfopedia, the encyclopedia of propaganda.

Fumento, Michael ([email protected])

Member of the Hudson Institute

Author of :

"City slickers off target in pesticide report" - an article published
(15 December 1998) in the Idaho Statesman which criticises "...the
environmentalists' never-ending campaign against pesticides" and
suggests that if pesticides were banned that "...we'll all be forced
to eat expensive, ugly, shriveled-looking organic produce...".

According to a brief biographical profile supplied to the National
Journalism Center Fumento attended a course in fall 1985 and has
subsequently been "National Issues reporter, Investor’s Business
Daily, legal writer, Washington Times, editorial writer, Rocky
Mountain News (CO), U.S. correspondent, A3 Umwelt (Austria), senior
fellow, Hudson Institute, fellow, American Enterprise Institute,
science advisor, Atlantic Legal Institute, Warren Brookes fellow,
Competitive Enterprise Institute, author, Science Under Siege, author,
The Fat of The Land, author, Polluted Science, author, The Myth of
Heterosexual Aids....

-----

dealing with the issue of diabetes being qualitatively distinct
from a construct such as ADHD..is a far better idea than using smear
tactics against those with the temerity to mention it.

It is also far less of an insult to those suffering real diseases..
 
> There is a movement to redefine "addiction" so that you can only be
> addicted to something that is bad for you. That way, no prescribed
> drug could ever be addictive. (I don't think that such a change would
> be helpful.)



I think U2 had the best definition ...

" ... when you can't get enough of what you don't really need ..."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
 
Roger Schlafly wrote:

> "nknisley" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>And, to bring us back to Roger's argument:
>>- Treating cancer-related fatigue is methylphenidate is inappropriate
>>because there's no proof that a methylphenidate deficiency is involved.

>
>
> Not my argument. Cancer patients often take all sorts of weird drugs
> that have no relation to any deficiency they might have. No objection
> from me. To be specific, it may very well be appropriate for a cancer
> patient to take methylphenidate.


I'm sorry, Roger. I apologize. I knew that wasn't your argument, but I
was sloppy in how I worded that sentence in my post and wrote something
I didn't intend to write.

Let me try again. What I intended to say, but didn't, was:

"And, to bring us back to the issue of treating cancer-related fatigue
with methylphenidate, [using Block's reasoning]:

- Treating cancer-related fatigue with methylphenidate is inappropriate
because there's no proof that a methylphenidate deficiency is involved.


Nancy
Unique, like everyone else
 
"Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]> wrote
> > > > I am happy to recognize the research. Yes, the physiological

response
> > > > when ritalin or cocaine is snorted or injected is much faster. It

can
> > > Now youhave to recognize that the rapid uptake of injected or snorted
> > > ritalin, met, etc. is what makes it addictive, and that oral use at

the
> > > prescribed doses does not make it addictive.

> >
> > Just show me the published scientific paper.
> >
> > Rush Limbaugh claims that he got addicted to prescribed pills. Are
> > you saying that is impossible?

>
> Well. Rush Limboob, the hypocrite, has his own thery. Did he mention that

he
> was abusing them prior to becoming addicted? I define abusing as not

taking
> them as prescribed.


Exactly - he didn't take them as prescribed.


> > If it has been shown to be impossible, then there must be a recognized
> > paper saying so.

>
> Sorry, Roger, but you have been asked a gadzillion times to prove that
> methylphendiate is addictive when taken as prescribed. You may not switch
> the burden of proof at this time.


It is especially funny when you consider that he has been shown that the use
of Ritalin reduces the incidence of drug abuse man times.


> Either provide documentation of a claim you made a gadzillion times, or
> admit that you are flatuating.


Yeah, I'm still waiting on that too.

--
CBI
 
"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> a lot of this is word games..
>
> addicted/dependent/withdrawal sydromes/discontinuity syndrome
> "addicted" has negative connotations..summoning up pictures of addicts
> shooting up in alleys...
>
> If after becoming habituated people find they can no longer function
> without a continuous input of a drug..thats addiction as far as most
> people are concerned..


1) Then most people do not understand the word.

2) I think they would be shocked to think about the things they are
"addicted" to.

3) The study that is being discussed never said the people couldn't
functuion without the drugs or that they were habituated to them. No
reasonable definition indicators of addiction was given.

--
CBI