Reviews

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Love Richie and his bikes. You'd be hard pressed to find a more stand-
up guy, who's always in the middle of riding and racing too.
Bill C

You forgot the ATMO.

Mark

I'm only a cheerleading wannabe. ;-)
Bill C

"tom luttrell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Brian Broderick said:

Checking out Richard Sachs now... He looks like one of the few East
Coast master frame-builders!

Sachs is probably the best present day American frame builder if
you're looking for traditional construction methods. Every bike he
builds is as near perfect as humanly possible. I'd buy a frame from
him in a second if I didn't have to wait two years to get it. The next
best guy might be a tie between Ed Litton and Roland Della Santa.,
Ed's in Richmond, CA and Roland lives in Reno, NV.

I received my Della Santa 3 weeks from ordering. I don't get why you
need to wait 2+ years to get a frame that's essentially the same in
terms of joining methods or pay that kind of money. The bike won't
ride better if it's "perfect." Unless you mean "perfect" as a
reflection of the way it rides, which is all that matters.

Well Tom, the differences are so minor that you'd be hard pressed to
actually note them looking hard. Out of 100 Sachs there won't be a single
error. Out of the same number of Della Santa's you'll find a paint flaw.
Ed's work is equally great but that's because these guys are getting older
and taking their time to do things instead of worrying about making a
profit.

"Brian Broderick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a club & rando rider, so I'm not racing against anything but lunch
time. I also want to keep this bike around for a while, and I'm
nervous about Aluminum fatiguing after 5 years, as well as collecting
little dings, dents, and scratches, until it's a mess. I stuck the
Cannondale (Crack'n'fail?) and Giant on there simply because I've
heard amazing things about them, and they're within my lowish level
price bracket. I have yet to test ride any but the LeMond Zurich and
both of the Specialized.

Checking out Richard Sachs now... He looks like one of the few East
Coast master frame-builders!

Please, if anyone has any other thoughts to contribute, continue!

If you want a nice clubman here's a set of links:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/USA.htm

If you intend to spend some money on a bike that you intend to keep, buy one
from one of these guys.

On 11/13/2007 03:34 PM, in article
[email hidden], "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Brian Broderick said:

Checking out Richard Sachs now... He looks like one of the few East
Coast master frame-builders!

Sachs is probably the best present day American frame builder if
you're looking for traditional construction methods. Every bike he
builds is as near perfect as humanly possible. I'd buy a frame from
him in a second if I didn't have to wait two years to get it. The next
best guy might be a tie between Ed Litton and Roland Della Santa.,
Ed's in Richmond, CA and Roland lives in Reno, NV.

Richard's lead time is now 6 years.

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

If you want a nice clubman here's a set of links:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/USA.htm

If you intend to spend some money on a bike that you intend to keep, buy one
from one of these guys.

Glad to see Hans made the list:

http://www.hansschneidercycles.com/

This has been a plug for a fine Texas racer and frame builder from a
happy owner of a custom-for-someone-else track frame from HS.

Even his used bikes are pretty darn nice <g>. --D-y

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Glad to see Hans made the list:

http://www.hansschneidercycles.com/

This has been a plug for a fine Texas racer and frame builder from a
happy owner of a custom-for-someone-else track frame from HS.

Even his used bikes are pretty darn nice <g>. --D-y

I'll put in a plug for Sycip Cycles. They do really nice work and make every
effort to please the customer.

http://www.sycip.com/

--
tanx,
Howard

Safe when used as directed...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Nov 13, 8:03 pm, "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Richard's lead time is now 6 years.

That isn't just because of advertising.

Let me also say this - I have a Time and a Look and a Colnago C40.
These carbon bikes ride VERY nicely and I ride them mostly. However, I
have a steel old 1982 Colnago Super that I put a carbon fork on and
modern parts that rides every bit as good. I also have a Basso Loto
circa 1996 that is probably WAY the best steel bike I've ever ridden.

You can still find very good steel bikes on Ebay for a song and put
new parts on them and have superior bikes to those being sold today.
As much as I like my carbon bikes I would rather ride steel if they
were a bit easier to come by.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"tom luttrell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Nov 13, 11:02 am, Brian Broderick <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Checking out Richard Sachs now... He looks like one of the few East
> Coast master frame-builders!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sachs is probably the best present day American frame builder if
you're looking for traditional construction methods. Every bike he
builds is as near perfect as humanly possible. I'd buy a frame from
him in a second if I didn't have to wait two years to get it. The next
best guy might be a tie between Ed Litton and Roland Della Santa.,
Ed's in Richmond, CA and Roland lives in Reno, NV.

Quoted message said:

I received my Della Santa 3 weeks from ordering. I don't get why you
need to wait 2+ years to get a frame that's essentially the same in
terms of joining methods or pay that kind of money. The bike won't
ride better if it's "perfect." Unless you mean "perfect" as a
reflection of the way it rides, which is all that matters.

Well Tom, the differences are so minor that you'd be hard pressed to
actually note them looking hard. Out of 100 Sachs there won't be a single
error. Out of the same number of Della Santa's you'll find a paint flaw.
Ed's work is equally great but that's because these guys are getting older
and taking their time to do things instead of worrying about making a
profit.

The chips I have in the drive-side chainstay are the paint flaws I've
added from riding it. I'd have at least 5 1/2 years to wait until I
was able to get a flawless RS. Then I could ride it a couple of times
and have chips in my chainstay.

tom luttrell said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"tom luttrell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Nov 13, 2:34 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
> Sachs is probably the best present day American frame builder if
> you're looking for traditional construction methods. Every bike he
> builds is as near perfect as humanly possible. I'd buy a frame
> from him in a second if I didn't have to wait two years to get it.
> The next best guy might be a tie between Ed Litton and Roland
> Della Santa., Ed's in Richmond, CA and Roland lives in Reno, NV.

Quoted message said:

I received my Della Santa 3 weeks from ordering. I don't get why
you need to wait 2+ years to get a frame that's essentially the
same in terms of joining methods or pay that kind of money. The
bike won't ride better if it's "perfect." Unless you mean "perfect"
as a reflection of the way it rides, which is all that matters.

Well Tom, the differences are so minor that you'd be hard pressed to
actually note them looking hard. Out of 100 Sachs there won't be a
single error. Out of the same number of Della Santa's you'll find a
paint flaw. Ed's work is equally great but that's because these guys
are getting older and taking their time to do things instead of
worrying about making a profit.

The chips I have in the drive-side chainstay are the paint flaws I've
added from riding it. I'd have at least 5 1/2 years to wait until I
was able to get a flawless RS. Then I could ride it a couple of times
and have chips in my chainstay.

Lesseee, 5-6 frames per month, $4000 per frame, that's .... wow!

Not bad for a guy who doesn't worry about making a profit.

--
Bill Asher

William Asher said:

tom luttrell said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"tom luttrell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Nov 13, 2:34 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
>> Sachs is probably the best present day American frame builder if
>> you're looking for traditional construction methods. Every bike he
>> builds is as near perfect as humanly possible. I'd buy a frame
>> from him in a second if I didn't have to wait two years to get it.
>> The next best guy might be a tie between Ed Litton and Roland
>> Della Santa., Ed's in Richmond, CA and Roland lives in Reno, NV.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I received my Della Santa 3 weeks from ordering. I don't get why
> you need to wait 2+ years to get a frame that's essentially the
> same in terms of joining methods or pay that kind of money. The
> bike won't ride better if it's "perfect." Unless you mean "perfect"
> as a reflection of the way it rides, which is all that matters.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well Tom, the differences are so minor that you'd be hard pressed to
actually note them looking hard. Out of 100 Sachs there won't be a
single error. Out of the same number of Della Santa's you'll find a
paint flaw. Ed's work is equally great but that's because these guys
are getting older and taking their time to do things instead of
worrying about making a profit.

Quoted message said:

The chips I have in the drive-side chainstay are the paint flaws I've
added from riding it. I'd have at least 5 1/2 years to wait until I
was able to get a flawless RS. Then I could ride it a couple of times
and have chips in my chainstay.

Lesseee, 5-6 frames per month, $4000 per frame, that's .... wow!

Not bad for a guy who doesn't worry about making a profit.

--
Bill Asher

8-10 frames per month--why worry?

http://richardsachs.com/rsachsabout.html

"For a Richard Sachs frame, I select the geometry, cut and braze the
tubes, file the lugs, and do all the tasks necessary to complete the 8
to 10 frames I build each month. It has always been this way."

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Brian Broderick said:

Quoted message said:

Donald Munro said:

Brian Broderick wrote:
>> Hey all. I'm looking for some reviews from anyone who's ridden any of
>> the following bikes. I'm considering a purchase, and I need to narrow
>> the field down a bit before I go test riding. I'll also be on assorted
>> road bike review sites.
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> They're all really good.

Quoted message said:

But Bianchi have a better warranty.

Unfortunately they need them. Of the half dozen Bianchi's I've worked
on, most of them broke their frames. Other than that only one Vitus
came apart on me.

Thanks for the rec's, everyone. I knew Rivendale sounded wrong, but
unfortunately I had already hit send! I've considered Bianchi, but
I've found most of their work at this level to be in carbon or
aluminum, while I'm targeting steel, titanium, and a limited amount of
mix between them. Carbon is really out of my performance range,
although the Specialized are just so gorgeous I couldn't help myself.
I'm a club & rando rider, so I'm not racing against anything but lunch
time. I also want to keep this bike around for a while, and I'm
nervous about Aluminum fatiguing after 5 years, as well as collecting
little dings, dents, and scratches, until it's a mess. I stuck the
Cannondale (Crack'n'fail?) and Giant on there simply because I've
heard amazing things about them, and they're within my lowish level
price bracket. I have yet to test ride any but the LeMond Zurich and
both of the Specialized.

Checking out Richard Sachs now... He looks like one of the few East
Coast master frame-builders!

There are master frame builders with little or no
celebrity. Ask around. Were you looking to custom
you could get a superb frame in much less time.

Quoted message said:

Please, if anyone has any other thoughts to contribute, continue!

--
Michael Press

tom luttrell said:

"For a Richard Sachs frame, I select the geometry, cut and braze the
tubes, file the lugs, and do all the tasks necessary to complete the 8
to 10 frames I build each month. It has always been this way."

The 5-6 number comes from further in on his website. I think on the
"Order" page. Even at the lower number, it's still a large amount for only
worrying about the quality of each frame. You would think he could find
an apprentice who would share his "passion for producing a flawless
product" for a yearly salary of maybe $80k per year (Level III welder
salary median is $46k), double his overall output, and be even less worried
about making a profit. Not that I am completely cynical or anything.

--
Bill Asher

http://tinyurl.com/2ewjj3

In article <[email hidden]>,

William Asher said:

tom luttrell said:

"For a Richard Sachs frame, I select the geometry, cut and braze the
tubes, file the lugs, and do all the tasks necessary to complete the 8
to 10 frames I build each month. It has always been this way."

The 5-6 number comes from further in on his website. I think on the
"Order" page. Even at the lower number, it's still a large amount for only
worrying about the quality of each frame. You would think he could find
an apprentice who would share his "passion for producing a flawless
product" for a yearly salary of maybe $80k per year (Level III welder
salary median is $46k), double his overall output, and be even less worried
about making a profit. Not that I am completely cynical or anything.

I don't presume to dictate Mr. Sachs' business to him, but I think he's
quite aware he could probably find a lot of ways to increase his income
and his volume.

At this point, demand for his frames is such that he basically doesn't
have to worry about running out of business for the forseeable future.
The price reflects the extraordinary demand as much as it does the cost
of the frame, and while a gross revenue of $240,000+ sounds great,
that's basically GP MD money (or lazy dentist money) and it wouldn't
surprise me at all if take-home cash was less than half of that, even
before taxes.

That's enough to keep eRichie in film for his FD Mavica, and enough that
he won't starve. But it's rather low considering his best-of-class
reputation. I would posit that having considered his options, Mr. Sachs
has decided that he would rather work alone, not bother with maximum
profit, and build exactly what he wants to build: the most artlessly
perfect lugged steel frames he can.

Conversely, Sacha "Vanilla" White has quickly built up a waiting list
that is about the same as the one for a Richard Sachs, only building
outrageously beautiful steel bicycles. His response to demand was to do
just what you suggested: he has started a side project called
Speedvagen, bringing in a talented builder to do a run of less
decorative cyclocross bikes.

http://perpetualmotion1.blogspot.com/2007/06/speedvagen.html

This is a great way to expand the business, but now Mr. White will be
spending some extra chunk of his time being a manager of a frame-making
business rather than just building frames.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:rcousine-37DC15.18102014112007@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

William Asher said:

Not that I am completely cynical or anything.

I don't presume to dictate Mr. Sachs' business to him, but I think he's
quite aware he could probably find a lot of ways to increase his income
and his volume.

William Asher would presume just about anything.

Quoted message said:

That's enough to keep eRichie in film for his FD Mavica, and enough that
he won't starve. But it's rather low considering his best-of-class
reputation. I would posit that having considered his options, Mr. Sachs
has decided that he would rather work alone, not bother with maximum
profit, and build exactly what he wants to build: the most artlessly
perfect lugged steel frames he can.

Consider how much money Ferrari was making. Consider how much money
Armstrong was making. Asher and other brain dead morons like himself
demonstrate an almost complete lack of knowledge about everything they
comment on.

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:rcousine-37DC15.18102014112007@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

William Asher said:

tom luttrell said:

"For a Richard Sachs frame, I select the geometry, cut and braze
the tubes, file the lugs, and do all the tasks necessary to
complete the 8 to 10 frames I build each month. It has always been
this way."

The 5-6 number comes from further in on his website. I think on the
"Order" page. Even at the lower number, it's still a large amount
for only worrying about the quality of each frame. You would think
he could find an apprentice who would share his "passion for
producing a flawless product" for a yearly salary of maybe $80k per
year (Level III welder salary median is $46k), double his overall
output, and be even less worried about making a profit. Not that I
am completely cynical or anything.

I don't presume to dictate Mr. Sachs' business to him, but I think
he's quite aware he could probably find a lot of ways to increase his
income and his volume.

At this point, demand for his frames is such that he basically doesn't
have to worry about running out of business for the forseeable future.
The price reflects the extraordinary demand as much as it does the
cost of the frame, and while a gross revenue of $240,000+ sounds
great, that's basically GP MD money (or lazy dentist money) and it
wouldn't surprise me at all if take-home cash was less than half of
that, even before taxes.

That's enough to keep eRichie in film for his FD Mavica, and enough
that he won't starve. But it's rather low considering his
best-of-class reputation. I would posit that having considered his
options, Mr. Sachs has decided that he would rather work alone, not
bother with maximum profit, and build exactly what he wants to build:
the most artlessly perfect lugged steel frames he can.

Even if his cost to build a frame is $2000 so that his mark-up is only
100%, $120,000 is a lot of money. Besides, if it cost that much to make
a bicycle frame, no custom frame would be selling for less, so the cost
to make a frame has to be a lot less than $2000 per frame, even if you
factor in things like shop rental, supplies, tools, etc. Claiming you're
in something for love is easy to do when you have a six-figure income. I
think the $4000 price tag on the frames points to the fact he *likes*
profit, a lot, and his claim on his website about "only doing it to make
perfect frames" shows he is playing gullible people like Kunich like they
were french horns (which is pretty amusing if you think about how you
play a french horn). I'm not saying the frames suck or that Sachs is a
jerk, only that he's doing marketing just like anyone else in a business
to make a profit.

--
Bill Asher

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:rcousine-37DC15.18102014112007@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

William Asher said:

tom luttrell said:

"For a Richard Sachs frame, I select the geometry, cut and braze
the tubes, file the lugs, and do all the tasks necessary to
complete the 8 to 10 frames I build each month. It has always been
this way."

The 5-6 number comes from further in on his website. I think on the
"Order" page. Even at the lower number, it's still a large amount
for only worrying about the quality of each frame. You would think
he could find an apprentice who would share his "passion for
producing a flawless product" for a yearly salary of maybe $80k per
year (Level III welder salary median is $46k), double his overall
output, and be even less worried about making a profit. Not that I
am completely cynical or anything.

I don't presume to dictate Mr. Sachs' business to him, but I think
he's quite aware he could probably find a lot of ways to increase his
income and his volume.

At this point, demand for his frames is such that he basically doesn't
have to worry about running out of business for the forseeable future.
The price reflects the extraordinary demand as much as it does the
cost of the frame, and while a gross revenue of $240,000+ sounds
great, that's basically GP MD money (or lazy dentist money) and it
wouldn't surprise me at all if take-home cash was less than half of
that, even before taxes.

That's enough to keep eRichie in film for his FD Mavica, and enough
that he won't starve. But it's rather low considering his
best-of-class reputation. I would posit that having considered his
options, Mr. Sachs has decided that he would rather work alone, not
bother with maximum profit, and build exactly what he wants to build:
the most artlessly perfect lugged steel frames he can.

Even if his cost to build a frame is $2000 so that his mark-up is only
100%, $120,000 is a lot of money. Besides, if it cost that much to make
a bicycle frame, no custom frame would be selling for less, so the cost
to make a frame has to be a lot less than $2000 per frame, even if you
factor in things like shop rental, supplies, tools, etc. Claiming you're
in something for love is easy to do when you have a six-figure income. I
think the $4000 price tag on the frames points to the fact he *likes*
profit, a lot, and his claim on his website about "only doing it to make
perfect frames" shows he is playing gullible people like Kunich like they
were french horns (which is pretty amusing if you think about how you
play a french horn). I'm not saying the frames suck or that Sachs is a
jerk, only that he's doing marketing just like anyone else in a business
to make a profit.

--
Bill Asher

In article <[email hidden]>,

William Asher said:

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:rcousine-37DC15.18102014112007@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

William Asher said:

tom luttrell wrote:

>
> "For a Richard Sachs frame, I select the geometry, cut and braze
> the tubes, file the lugs, and do all the tasks necessary to
> complete the 8 to 10 frames I build each month. It has always been
> this way."
>

The 5-6 number comes from further in on his website. I think on the
"Order" page. Even at the lower number, it's still a large amount
for only worrying about the quality of each frame. You would think
he could find an apprentice who would share his "passion for
producing a flawless product" for a yearly salary of maybe $80k per
year (Level III welder salary median is $46k), double his overall
output, and be even less worried about making a profit. Not that I
am completely cynical or anything.

I don't presume to dictate Mr. Sachs' business to him, but I think
he's quite aware he could probably find a lot of ways to increase his
income and his volume.

At this point, demand for his frames is such that he basically doesn't
have to worry about running out of business for the forseeable future.
The price reflects the extraordinary demand as much as it does the
cost of the frame, and while a gross revenue of $240,000+ sounds
great, that's basically GP MD money (or lazy dentist money) and it
wouldn't surprise me at all if take-home cash was less than half of
that, even before taxes.

That's enough to keep eRichie in film for his FD Mavica, and enough
that he won't starve. But it's rather low considering his
best-of-class reputation. I would posit that having considered his
options, Mr. Sachs has decided that he would rather work alone, not
bother with maximum profit, and build exactly what he wants to build:
the most artlessly perfect lugged steel frames he can.

Even if his cost to build a frame is $2000 so that his mark-up is only
100%, $120,000 is a lot of money. Besides, if it cost that much to make
a bicycle frame, no custom frame would be selling for less, so the cost
to make a frame has to be a lot less than $2000 per frame, even if you
factor in things like shop rental, supplies, tools, etc. Claiming you're
in something for love is easy to do when you have a six-figure income. I
think the $4000 price tag on the frames points to the fact he *likes*
profit, a lot, and his claim on his website about "only doing it to make
perfect frames" shows he is playing gullible people like Kunich like they
were french horns (which is pretty amusing if you think about how you
play a french horn). I'm not saying the frames suck or that Sachs is a
jerk, only that he's doing marketing just like anyone else in a business
to make a profit.

Bill, there's so much wrong with this reasoning that I decline to even
start on it. But you know, I make nowhere near six figures, but if I did
the only substantial lifestyle choice I would expect to experience is
that I would get on the waiting list for a Sachs (or some similar dream
bike).

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

William Asher said:

Even if his cost to build a frame is $2000 so that his mark-up is only
100%, $120,000 is a lot of money. Besides, if it cost that much to make
a bicycle frame, no custom frame would be selling for less, so the cost
to make a frame has to be a lot less than $2000 per frame, even if you
factor in things like shop rental, supplies, tools, etc. Claiming you're
in something for love is easy to do when you have a six-figure income. I
think the $4000 price tag on the frames points to the fact he *likes*
profit, a lot, and his claim on his website about "only doing it to make
perfect frames" shows he is playing gullible people like Kunich like they
were french horns (which is pretty amusing if you think about how you
play a french horn). I'm not saying the frames suck or that Sachs is a
jerk, only that he's doing marketing just like anyone else in a business
to make a profit.

There you have it from a man who has owned and operated his own
business. Why Asher probably could tell you precisely what it takes to
run a business these days. What the insurance cost, what the medical -
oh yeah, I'm certainly that someone making that much money wouldn't
NEED medical insurance unless he was interested in actually keeping
what little he could save.

I seem to be detecting a small hint that perhaps Asher isn't making an
income that would make a hobo jealous.

Ryan Cousineau said:

Bill, there's so much wrong with this reasoning that I decline to even
start on it.

agreed.
whoa - amazing stuff to read at happy hour here in chester atmo.
e-RICHIE(c)(tm)(R)
http://rscyclocross.blogspot.com/