Repairing vs replacing wheels

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Thx,

Atri

In my experience a wheel has to be more than "slightly damaged" to be
untruable. And if you have loose spokes there is something wrong. I'd
get another opinion on the condition of your rim before proceeding.

In rec.bicycles.misc said:

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

You could theoretically bang the old rim back into shape and re-tension
it. I'd be more likely just to replace the rim and have someone rebuild
the wheel. If you're careful you can use a similar size rim and reuse
the spokes and hub. If you buy new, instead of giving Bontrager another
$250, why not have someone handbuild a wheel for you? Ultregra hub + 32
or 36 DB spokes + a good quality rim + labor will still likely be
cheaper and last longer.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"I don't want to join the kind of a club that accepts
people like me as members." -Groucho Marx

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

Potholes kill far more rims than crashes. Unfortunately, there's no shortage
of potholes, especially this year, with all the rain (your message indicates
you're in the SF Bay Area).

Quoted message said:

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

It probably is safe to ride, but if the spoke tension is inconsistent, it
won't hold its shape for very long. If the rim is physically bent, trying to
adjust it straight via nothing but spoke tension won't work well... you need
to physically bend the rim back into shape, as close as possible, and then
use the spokes for fine-tuning. In many cases this simply isn't possible,
because the bend is too sharp.

Quoted message said:

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost comes
close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes run
about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense just to
buy a new one. As for the dent in your old wheel, I can't tell if it's
something that can be dealt with without seeing it (and, given your
location, it's quite possible you might have already taken it into our Los
Altos store already, where someone should have been able to give you the
options).

Not sure that a RaceLite wheel would be more dent-resistant though. Dent
resistance is almost entirely a function of rim cross-section and weight,
and the Select, Race and RaceLite are all quite similar. The deeper "Aero"
style rims are significantly stronger, but at some expense in weight.

Hope this helps-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Thx,

Atri

Quoted message said:

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Trek doesn't allow dealers to sell Trek stuff on-line, but the rule
apparently doesn't apply to Bontrager stuff. New Race Lite wheels show
up all the time on eBay from legitimate on-line bike stores at prices
far less than that, and used ones even cheaper.

"Diablo Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Trek doesn't allow dealers to sell Trek stuff on-line, but the rule apparently
doesn't apply to Bontrager stuff. New Race Lite wheels show up all the time
on eBay from legitimate on-line bike stores at prices far less than that, and
used ones even cheaper.

I bought a new set of Race lites from a LBS last year for $250. I think Trek had
some type of sale going on.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Many rims can be repaired by slackening (but not zeroing)
spoke tension, than applying appropriate force to the
deformed section of the rim. Then tensioning and truing
the wheel. Just for luck, squeeze the tensioned spoke
pairs to be sure that they are stress relieved.

--
Michael Press

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Trek doesn't allow dealers to sell Trek stuff on-line, but the rule
apparently doesn't apply to Bontrager stuff. New Race Lite wheels show up
all the time on eBay from legitimate on-line bike stores at prices far
less than that, and used ones even cheaper.

Actually, Trek does *not* allow the sale of Bontrager components mail-order
or via eBay. Many dealers either aren't aware of this or choose to ignore
it. Unfortunately, you do need to be careful about wheels purchased that
way. If it's a truly legit dealer, probably not an issue, but Trek changed
the way they handled warranty stuff a while back, and stopped requiring the
parts to be returned. They're in the midst of changing that, because there
have been some dealers who then re-sold the defective parts on eBay
(although I doubt it was done under a legit dealer name).

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Diablo Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Trek doesn't allow dealers to sell Trek stuff on-line, but the rule
apparently doesn't apply to Bontrager stuff. New Race Lite wheels show up
all the time on eBay from legitimate on-line bike stores at prices far
less than that, and used ones even cheaper.

Quoted message said:

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)?

There are a couple of websites with basic info about straightening a
bent rim; as long as this isn't a Select Aero, I'd give it a try.
(Aero rims tend not to be as easily unkinked in my experience.) The
best that can happen is that the wheel will get bent to a new shape
that's more useful than the current one; the worst is that you'll
still need a replacement. If the latter ends up being the case, I'd
shop for a generic 36-spoke wheel; those tend to be less expensive by
far, at least as durable as the costly racy stuff, and often will be
less fragile in the bump-damage department because they're not aimed
at the it-must-be-super-light market.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Thx,

Atri

Yep, go to a bike shop that will build you a wheel that will do what
you want it to do. I find it appalling that a hub will be thrown away
because the rim, which always will go south eventually', becomes
wacked. Use a hub, like an ultegra one, a good Velocity or mavic rim
and spokes...about $225 from us.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

Potholes kill far more rims than crashes. Unfortunately, there's no shortage
of potholes, especially this year, with all the rain (your message indicates
you're in the SF Bay Area).

Quoted message said:

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

It probably is safe to ride, but if the spoke tension is inconsistent, it
won't hold its shape for very long. If the rim is physically bent, trying to
adjust it straight via nothing but spoke tension won't work well... you need
to physically bend the rim back into shape, as close as possible, and then
use the spokes for fine-tuning. In many cases this simply isn't possible,
because the bend is too sharp.

Quoted message said:

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost comes
close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes run
about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense just to
buy a new one.

This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
or worn out.

As for the dent in your old wheel, I can't tell if it's

Quoted message said:

something that can be dealt with without seeing it (and, given your
location, it's quite possible you might have already taken it into our Los
Altos store already, where someone should have been able to give you the
options).

Not sure that a RaceLite wheel would be more dent-resistant though. Dent
resistance is almost entirely a function of rim cross-section and weight,
and the Select, Race and RaceLite are all quite similar. The deeper "Aero"
style rims are significantly stronger, but at some expense in weight.

Hope this helps-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Thx,

Atri

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost
comes
close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes run
about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense just
to
buy a new one.

This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
or worn out.

??? This "philosophy" comes about because the cost of a complete component
is often less than the sum of its part, without including labor to build it.
That's a simple fact of life for a lot of things in the world. Besides,
you're preaching to the choir about disposability; I'm often on a rant about
the fact that things are often engineered with the idea that you wouldn't
repair it, but just toss it and buy a new one (particularly electronics).

If you want an example of something you'd approve of (but hate doing so),
the Trek OCLV frames are intentionally designed in a way to enhance
reparability (tube replacement), and they cost more to build because of
that. Even though this doesn't always make economic sense (because what
proportion will actually require repair, vs everyone paying a bit for so you
can...), it sends a message to those putting new stuff on the drawing boards
that they're working on a DURABLE piece of equipment that should be around
for a while, not something that you use and throw away. That, in my opinion,
makes a big difference in the quality and properties of the finished
product.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

Potholes kill far more rims than crashes. Unfortunately, there's no
shortage
of potholes, especially this year, with all the rain (your message
indicates
you're in the SF Bay Area).

Quoted message said:

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

It probably is safe to ride, but if the spoke tension is inconsistent, it
won't hold its shape for very long. If the rim is physically bent, trying
to
adjust it straight via nothing but spoke tension won't work well... you
need
to physically bend the rim back into shape, as close as possible, and
then
use the spokes for fine-tuning. In many cases this simply isn't possible,
because the bend is too sharp.

Quoted message said:

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost
comes
close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes run
about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense just
to
buy a new one.

This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
or worn out.

As for the dent in your old wheel, I can't tell if it's

Quoted message said:

something that can be dealt with without seeing it (and, given your
location, it's quite possible you might have already taken it into our
Los
Altos store already, where someone should have been able to give you the
options).

Not sure that a RaceLite wheel would be more dent-resistant though. Dent
resistance is almost entirely a function of rim cross-section and weight,
and the Select, Race and RaceLite are all quite similar. The deeper
"Aero"
style rims are significantly stronger, but at some expense in weight.

Hope this helps-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
bump, indicating a vertical deformation.

I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
when it hit a pothole.

The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
but will set me back around $250.

Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Thx,

Atri

I am curious - as a large Trek dealer, how many OCLV frames have you
sent in for tube replacement?

Quoted message said:

I am curious - as a large Trek dealer, how many OCLV frames have you
sent in for tube replacement?

Very few. Typically it occurs for chain suck issues (chewed-through
chainstay), which doesn't happen too often, or a damaged top tube due to a
side impact. Once in a while you'll get a total front-end replacement where
the down tube, head tube and top tube require replacement; this is usually a
roof-rack special. In general, it's pretty difficult to damage an OCLV
frame, and often those that are damaged (from a head-on collision of some
sort) are ridden long afterward without anyone knowing, because they didn't
bother to check for damage on the backside of the lower headtube fitting.

At some point it becomes more practical to simply replace the entire frame,
as the cost of tubes & labor adds up. But I would much rather retain the
flexibility of being able to repair them, even if it might not always make
financial sense to do so, because I believe you get a better product that
way. I'm sure one could make an argument that there is some sort of weight
penalty in doing so, but I'll live with that. I like the idea of the
engineer believing that the product is going to be in use for a very, very
long time... and someday might be in need of repair, not just tossed a
landfill component.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

??? This "philosophy" comes about because the cost of a complete
component is often less than the sum of its part, without including
labor to build it. That's a simple fact of life for a lot of things in
the world. Besides, you're preaching to the choir about disposability;
I'm often on a rant about the fact that things are often engineered with
the idea that you wouldn't repair it, but just toss it and buy a new one
(particularly electronics).

This is true of many things, but with bicycle wheels it's only because of
Trek's (and others'😉 proprietary incompatibility and absurd markup. For
example, I have it on good authority that many Rolf and Bontrager rims are
actually rebranded Sun Venus rims. From Sun with standard drillings these
retail for <$50, but if you want a replacement for your paired spoke
wheels they're 50-200% more -- if they'll even sell you one.

Matt O.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost
comes
close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes run
about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense just
to
buy a new one.

This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
or worn out.

??? This "philosophy" comes about because the cost of a complete component
is often less than the sum of its part, without including labor to build it.
That's a simple fact of life for a lot of things in the world. Besides,
you're preaching to the choir about disposability; I'm often on a rant about
the fact that things are often engineered with the idea that you wouldn't
repair it, but just toss it and buy a new one (particularly electronics).

But Trek encourages it, practices it, from their components(shimano-BBs
and STI-to Bontrager-hubs.

If ya sell it, you agree with it. I do not, one of the reasons I do not
sell out of the box wheels. Yes, Campag also does this with BBs...poor
form, IMO.

Quoted message said:

If you want an example of something you'd approve of (but hate doing so),
the Trek OCLV frames are intentionally designed in a way to enhance
reparability (tube replacement), and they cost more to build because of
that. Even though this doesn't always make economic sense (because what
proportion will actually require repair, vs everyone paying a bit for so you
can...), it sends a message to those putting new stuff on the drawing boards
that they're working on a DURABLE piece of equipment that should be around
for a while, not something that you use and throw away. That, in my opinion,
makes a big difference in the quality and properties of the finished
product.

Glad to hear this because in the early days of OCLV, it certainly
wasn't the case. It was obvious to me that Trek would rather warranty
their frames then rather than make them better.

Quoted message said:

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

> My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
> on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
> my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
> wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
> Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
> see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
> bump, indicating a vertical deformation.
>
> I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
> when it hit a pothole.

Potholes kill far more rims than crashes. Unfortunately, there's no
shortage
of potholes, especially this year, with all the rain (your message
indicates
you're in the SF Bay Area).

> The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
> replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
> should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
> but will set me back around $250.

It probably is safe to ride, but if the spoke tension is inconsistent, it
won't hold its shape for very long. If the rim is physically bent, trying
to
adjust it straight via nothing but spoke tension won't work well... you
need
to physically bend the rim back into shape, as close as possible, and
then
use the spokes for fine-tuning. In many cases this simply isn't possible,
because the bend is too sharp.

> Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
> rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
> bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
> inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
> so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
> San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?

Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost
comes
close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes run
about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense just
to
buy a new one.

This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
or worn out.

As for the dent in your old wheel, I can't tell if it's

Quoted message said:

something that can be dealt with without seeing it (and, given your
location, it's quite possible you might have already taken it into our
Los
Altos store already, where someone should have been able to give you the
options).

Not sure that a RaceLite wheel would be more dent-resistant though. Dent
resistance is almost entirely a function of rim cross-section and weight,
and the Select, Race and RaceLite are all quite similar. The deeper
"Aero"
style rims are significantly stronger, but at some expense in weight.

Hope this helps-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a spoke
> on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out that
> my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
> wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat loose.
> Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I can
> see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
> bump, indicating a vertical deformation.
>
> I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
> when it hit a pothole.
>
> The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think of
> replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said I
> should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger rim,
> but will set me back around $250.
>
> Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
> rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
> bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
> inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
> so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
> San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?
>
> Thx,
>
> Atri
>

I would suggest that you have a friend show you how to build and true a
wheel, using your old hub and new spokes. Or read a book on how to do
it. Even if you screw up the trueing, you can take the built-up wheel
to a bike shop and have them true it. Inevitably, after doing this a
few times, you learn how to true a wheel well. It's not really that
hard once you get a feel for it, know what to look for and take a
systematic approach to it. Then you will never have this problem again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

??? This "philosophy" comes about because the cost of a complete
component
is often less than the sum of its part, without including labor to build
it.
That's a simple fact of life for a lot of things in the world. Besides,
you're preaching to the choir about disposability; I'm often on a rant
about
the fact that things are often engineered with the idea that you wouldn't
repair it, but just toss it and buy a new one (particularly electronics).

But Trek encourages it, practices it, from their components(shimano-BBs
and STI-to Bontrager-hubs.

If ya sell it, you agree with it. I do not, one of the reasons I do not
sell out of the box wheels. Yes, Campag also does this with BBs...poor
form, IMO.

I'll grant you that Campagnolo has an advantage in terms of rebuilding shift
levers (although fortunately I'm one of the lucky ones who's never had a
Shimano STI fail), but bottom brackets? I find the cartridge bottom brackets
last much longer than the old style. True that if someone does regular
maintenance on an older-style bottom bracket (taking them apart, cleaning &
regreasing), but depending upon how you ride and the weather, that might
require doing so 3-4 times per year. The percentage of people who would do
so is insignificant. The cartridge bottom bracket, on the other hand, just
doesn't seem to care. They just go and go and go, and the fact that when
they finally die they can't be rebuilt... seems like a small price to pay,
to me.

Hub bearings, on the other hand... I'm very disappointed in current
cartridge-bearing hub technology. I like the fact that they're easily
replaced, and allow for hub designs nor previously practical. But why is it
that, in heavy rain, they siphon water *into* them, where it sits and rusts
the bearings? Cartridge-bearing hubs are great for incidental water
exposure, or mud, but give them some real rain to contend with, and they
die. I try to make sure I don't call them "sealed" bearings anymore, because
"sealed" implies that they might be waterproof.

So here's a question- why do cartridge bearings work so much better in a
bottom bracket than in a hub? Is it the rotational speed?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

> Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost
> comes
> close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes
> run
> about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense
> just
> to
> buy a new one.

This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
or worn out.

??? This "philosophy" comes about because the cost of a complete
component
is often less than the sum of its part, without including labor to build
it.
That's a simple fact of life for a lot of things in the world. Besides,
you're preaching to the choir about disposability; I'm often on a rant
about
the fact that things are often engineered with the idea that you wouldn't
repair it, but just toss it and buy a new one (particularly electronics).

But Trek encourages it, practices it, from their components(shimano-BBs
and STI-to Bontrager-hubs.

If ya sell it, you agree with it. I do not, one of the reasons I do not
sell out of the box wheels. Yes, Campag also does this with BBs...poor
form, IMO.

Quoted message said:

If you want an example of something you'd approve of (but hate doing so),
the Trek OCLV frames are intentionally designed in a way to enhance
reparability (tube replacement), and they cost more to build because of
that. Even though this doesn't always make economic sense (because what
proportion will actually require repair, vs everyone paying a bit for so
you
can...), it sends a message to those putting new stuff on the drawing
boards
that they're working on a DURABLE piece of equipment that should be
around
for a while, not something that you use and throw away. That, in my
opinion,
makes a big difference in the quality and properties of the finished
product.

Glad to hear this because in the early days of OCLV, it certainly
wasn't the case. It was obvious to me that Trek would rather warranty
their frames then rather than make them better.

Quoted message said:

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a
> > spoke
> > on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out
> > that
> > my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
> > wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat
> > loose.
> > Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I
> > can
> > see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
> > bump, indicating a vertical deformation.
> >
> > I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
> > when it hit a pothole.
>
> Potholes kill far more rims than crashes. Unfortunately, there's no
> shortage
> of potholes, especially this year, with all the rain (your message
> indicates
> you're in the SF Bay Area).
>
> > The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think
> > of
> > replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said
> > I
> > should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger
> > rim,
> > but will set me back around $250.
>
> It probably is safe to ride, but if the spoke tension is inconsistent,
> it
> won't hold its shape for very long. If the rim is physically bent,
> trying
> to
> adjust it straight via nothing but spoke tension won't work well...
> you
> need
> to physically bend the rim back into shape, as close as possible, and
> then
> use the spokes for fine-tuning. In many cases this simply isn't
> possible,
> because the bend is too sharp.
>
> > Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
> > rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
> > bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
> > inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
> > so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
> > San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?
>
> Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost
> comes
> close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes
> run
> about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense
> just
> to
> buy a new one.

This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
or worn out.

As for the dent in your old wheel, I can't tell if it's
> something that can be dealt with without seeing it (and, given your
> location, it's quite possible you might have already taken it into our
> Los
> Altos store already, where someone should have been able to give you
> the
> options).
>
> Not sure that a RaceLite wheel would be more dent-resistant though.
> Dent
> resistance is almost entirely a function of rim cross-section and
> weight,
> and the Select, Race and RaceLite are all quite similar. The deeper
> "Aero"
> style rims are significantly stronger, but at some expense in weight.
>
> Hope this helps-
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a
> > spoke
> > on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out
> > that
> > my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
> > wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat
> > loose.
> > Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I
> > can
> > see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
> > bump, indicating a vertical deformation.
> >
> > I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
> > when it hit a pothole.
> >
> > The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think
> > of
> > replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said
> > I
> > should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger
> > rim,
> > but will set me back around $250.
> >
> > Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
> > rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
> > bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
> > inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
> > so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
> > San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?
> >
> > Thx,
> >
> > Atri
> >

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

??? This "philosophy" comes about because the cost of a complete
component
is often less than the sum of its part, without including labor to build
it.
That's a simple fact of life for a lot of things in the world. Besides,
you're preaching to the choir about disposability; I'm often on a rant
about
the fact that things are often engineered with the idea that you wouldn't
repair it, but just toss it and buy a new one (particularly electronics).

But Trek encourages it, practices it, from their components(shimano-BBs
and STI-to Bontrager-hubs.

If ya sell it, you agree with it. I do not, one of the reasons I do not
sell out of the box wheels. Yes, Campag also does this with BBs...poor
form, IMO.

I'll grant you that Campagnolo has an advantage in terms of rebuilding shift
levers (although fortunately I'm one of the lucky ones who's never had a
Shimano STI fail), but bottom brackets? I find the cartridge bottom brackets
last much longer than the old style. True that if someone does regular
maintenance on an older-style bottom bracket (taking them apart, cleaning &
regreasing), but depending upon how you ride and the weather, that might
require doing so 3-4 times per year. The percentage of people who would do
so is insignificant.

It's become insignificanrt becasue shimano has foisted the cart bearing
BB onto the market with it's 'gorilla in the room' power. I have used
the same BB on my bicycle since 1990...I overhaul it once per year or
if I get caught in the rain...NO big deal.

The cartridge bottom bracket, on the other hand, just

Quoted message said:

doesn't seem to care. They just go and go and go, and the fact that when
they finally die they can't be rebuilt... seems like a small price to pay,
to me.

Not surprised you say that, considering your reliance on shimano and
your business.

Quoted message said:

Hub bearings, on the other hand... I'm very disappointed in current
cartridge-bearing hub technology. I like the fact that they're easily
replaced, and allow for hub designs nor previously practical. But why is it
that, in heavy rain, they siphon water *into* them, where it sits and rusts
the bearings? Cartridge-bearing hubs are great for incidental water
exposure, or mud, but give them some real rain to contend with, and they
die. I try to make sure I don't call them "sealed" bearings anymore, because
"sealed" implies that they might be waterproof.

So here's a question- why do cartridge bearings work so much better in a
bottom bracket than in a hub? Is it the rotational speed?

See above. I think cart beartings in a BB are sluggish, overpriced and
necessary only because shimano has made them necessary when they went
to them in the 7410 crank.

Quoted message said:

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

>> Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost
>> comes
>> close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes
>> run
>> about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense
>> just
>> to
>> buy a new one.
>
> This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
> find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
> and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
> rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
> voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
> or worn out.

??? This "philosophy" comes about because the cost of a complete
component
is often less than the sum of its part, without including labor to build
it.
That's a simple fact of life for a lot of things in the world. Besides,
you're preaching to the choir about disposability; I'm often on a rant
about
the fact that things are often engineered with the idea that you wouldn't
repair it, but just toss it and buy a new one (particularly electronics).

But Trek encourages it, practices it, from their components(shimano-BBs
and STI-to Bontrager-hubs.

If ya sell it, you agree with it. I do not, one of the reasons I do not
sell out of the box wheels. Yes, Campag also does this with BBs...poor
form, IMO.

Quoted message said:

If you want an example of something you'd approve of (but hate doing so),
the Trek OCLV frames are intentionally designed in a way to enhance
reparability (tube replacement), and they cost more to build because of
that. Even though this doesn't always make economic sense (because what
proportion will actually require repair, vs everyone paying a bit for so
you
can...), it sends a message to those putting new stuff on the drawing
boards
that they're working on a DURABLE piece of equipment that should be
around
for a while, not something that you use and throw away. That, in my
opinion,
makes a big difference in the quality and properties of the finished
product.

Glad to hear this because in the early days of OCLV, it certainly
wasn't the case. It was obvious to me that Trek would rather warranty
their frames then rather than make them better.

Quoted message said:

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> > My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a
>> > spoke
>> > on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out
>> > that
>> > my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
>> > wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat
>> > loose.
>> > Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I
>> > can
>> > see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
>> > bump, indicating a vertical deformation.
>> >
>> > I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
>> > when it hit a pothole.
>>
>> Potholes kill far more rims than crashes. Unfortunately, there's no
>> shortage
>> of potholes, especially this year, with all the rain (your message
>> indicates
>> you're in the SF Bay Area).
>>
>> > The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think
>> > of
>> > replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said
>> > I
>> > should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger
>> > rim,
>> > but will set me back around $250.
>>
>> It probably is safe to ride, but if the spoke tension is inconsistent,
>> it
>> won't hold its shape for very long. If the rim is physically bent,
>> trying
>> to
>> adjust it straight via nothing but spoke tension won't work well...
>> you
>> need
>> to physically bend the rim back into shape, as close as possible, and
>> then
>> use the spokes for fine-tuning. In many cases this simply isn't
>> possible,
>> because the bend is too sharp.
>>
>> > Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
>> > rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
>> > bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
>> > inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
>> > so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
>> > San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?
>>
>> Those wheels can definitely be rebuilt; rims are available. The cost
>> comes
>> close to a new wheel however; I believe the rim is around $65, spokes
>> run
>> about $20 and labor about $40. Thus, in most cases, it makes sense
>> just
>> to
>> buy a new one.
>
> This philosophy and mentality, from Trek and Bontrager and others, I
> find really disappointing. When it's better to just throw a hub away,
> and buy a new wheel rather than have the thing rebuilt, with a new
> rim(no need for new spokes) ala a normal wheel. I guess that speaks
> voluimes about the hub, when it's of no use when the rim gets damaged
> or worn out.
>
>
>
> As for the dent in your old wheel, I can't tell if it's
>> something that can be dealt with without seeing it (and, given your
>> location, it's quite possible you might have already taken it into our
>> Los
>> Altos store already, where someone should have been able to give you
>> the
>> options).
>>
>> Not sure that a RaceLite wheel would be more dent-resistant though.
>> Dent
>> resistance is almost entirely a function of rim cross-section and
>> weight,
>> and the Select, Race and RaceLite are all quite similar. The deeper
>> "Aero"
>> style rims are significantly stronger, but at some expense in weight.
>>
>> Hope this helps-
>>
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReaction.com
>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>>
>> <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>> > My road bike has Bontrager Select wheels, and I recently broke a
>> > spoke
>> > on the rear wheel and had it replaced at the LBS. They pointed out
>> > that
>> > my rim was slightly damaged, and that they could not fully true the
>> > wheel. They did the best they could, but the spokes are somewhat
>> > loose.
>> > Any tighter, and they said the wheel will get further deformed. I
>> > can
>> > see that the wheel has a lateral shimmy, and while riding, I feel a
>> > bump, indicating a vertical deformation.
>> >
>> > I have never crashed this bike, and so I guess the wheel got damaged
>> > when it hit a pothole.
>> >
>> > The LBS said it should be safe to ride for now, but I should think
>> > of
>> > replacing the wheel. A Bontrager Select is about $130, but they said
>> > I
>> > should consider a Bontrager Race Lite, which has a much stronger
>> > rim,
>> > but will set me back around $250.
>> >
>> > Since I am a recreational rider (occasional century/double metric),
>> > rather than a racer, I don't really need the lightest and greatest
>> > bike, but would like to have a decent, sturdy, and preferably
>> > inexpensive wheel. Is a dented rim repairable (the LBS did not think
>> > so)? Any recommendations of where to get a wheel rim repaired in the
>> > San Jose, CA area? Any wheel recommendations?
>> >
>> > Thx,
>> >
>> > Atri
>> >
>

Hello...

Well, I have to say that I think the cartridge style BB with decent
quality seals was one of the significant contributions/improvements
that allowed Shimano to take control of the bicycle component market
place back in the 80's. Some may enjoy disassembling their bottom
bracket every year, personally I have better things to do. And too, my
old GIOS, which served for many years as a winter rain commuter has
that nice Italian cut away bottom bracket shell. The water drains out
nicely but that plastic shield around the BB axle really is not much
against road dirt.... Not really practical unless one has a cartridge
style BB.

Rebuilding wheels: If you know how or know someone who knows how, it
makes sense. Many shops can build a wheel but have difficulty
building a wheel that is going to last because there is more to
building a wheel than making it true....

If you are going to buy a new wheel, consider having a wheel built with
a standard 32 or better 36 hole hub and a box section rim. This
way, in the future, you will not be stuck with a non-standard hub but
rather you will be able to simply repair or replace whatever is
damaged.

Also: If you are riding a road bike, pot holes are to be avoided, it
only takes one to kill a wheel and if one is hit hard enough to damage
the wheel, one should be riding with enough care to know exactly when
it happened. Not too long ago I was selling a road bike with some nice
wheels on it, the buyer, a first timer asked me about riding off
curbs....

Jon