Red lights, ranting, etc.

Quoted message said:

I was riding up the 101 here in San Diego yesterday. (as an aside, it was cool enough to have to
wear arm and knee warmers) and noticed a disturbing trend among the riders I was near. Seems that
some guys have the mistaken belief that they can run red lights on their bicycles.

What's up with that??

Please help my understand why an otherwise law-abiding car driver suddenly feels that he/she's not
bound by the rules of the road just because they're riding a bicycle.

Traffic engineers have been training cyclists to run red lights for years. They do it by setting the
detectors so that the only vehicles the detectors detect are vehicles with motors. This teaches
cyclists that they will probably **have** to run red lights, and that's the way the traffic
engineers want it. I understand that in the US such bodies as the Instution of Transportation
Engineering write the standards for traffic light detectors to say that the detectors need not
detect bikes.

Jeremy Parker

Golightly F. said:

There is a new breed of cyclist... those with no class... no common

sense...

Quoted message said:

and a sick desire to be... ("wannabe"😉 ...Lance Armstrong.

I think you may be onto something. Compare the current bike catalogs and magazines to those of 15
years ago and you'll find many more aggressive images. Even casual weekend cyclists now often
comport themselves as if they're engaged in a grueling competition. How can they stop for a red
light? The peloton is gaining on them! Walter Mitty is alive and well.

Art Harris
----
"Well I might look like Robert Frost, but I feel just like Jesse James." --Bob Dylan

Bluto said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any cyclist who stops at a stop sign at an open, empty country crossroads, for instance, is a
hopeless case, an irretrievable tool.

which Harris <[email hidden]> illustrated the mindset that might compel
someone to do a silly thing like that:

Quoted message said:

If people chose to obey laws based on how they "feel," a civilized society would be impossible.

I was specifically replying to your remark: "How I feel about observing stop signs, one-way steets,
prohibited turns, etc., while on my bike, is very context-sensitive."

Quoted message said:

If people don't apply the same critical thinking to their observance of the law as they do to
practical matters, then a nominally free society will become impossible.

We're not talking about great moral issues like war and peace, civil rights, or free speech. We're
talking about traffic laws. Traffic systems only work if everyone involved knows and follows the
same rules. If everyone were to arbitrarily operate their vehicles based on how they "feel," there
would be anarchy. I think anyone operating any vehicle should be ticketed for running red lights,
etc. Cyclists may be able to get away with it in many cases, but in the long run it hurts all of us
because it perpetuates the notion that bikes aren't really vehicles.

Art Harris

Jeremy Parker said:

Traffic engineers have been training cyclists to run red lights for years. They do it by setting
the detectors so that the only vehicles the detectors detect are vehicles with motors. This
teaches cyclists that they will probably **have** to run red lights, and that's the way the
traffic engineers want it. I understand that in the US such bodies as the Instution of
Transportation Engineering write the standards for traffic light detectors to say that the
detectors need not detect bikes.

Do you really believe that traffic engineers want cyclists to run red lights? I don't.

First off, your premise that sensors don't detect bikes is false. The great majority of sensors do
detect bikes. And for the few that are improperly adjusted, a phone call to the Traffic Department
will usually correct the problem quickly. That has been my personal experience.

Art Harris

Harris said:

Do you really believe that traffic engineers want cyclists to run red lights? I don't.

if they had their way, bikes would never be on the road. of course, accidents causeed by
dysfunctional traffic lights help demonstrate how "dangerous" it is to ride bikes on the road, so
that they can urge closing roods the bicycles for "safety" reasons.

In article said:

Dennis P. Harris said:

Harris said:

Do you really believe that traffic engineers want cyclists to run red lights? I don't.

if they had their way, bikes would never be on the road. of course, accidents causeed by
dysfunctional traffic lights help demonstrate how "dangerous" it is to ride bikes on the road, so
that they can urge closing roods the bicycles for "safety" reasons.

Do you know any traffic engineers personally? I do. I've known this guy since the mid '70s. He's
ridden the complete "Bikecentennial" route, and often commutes to work by bike. They're not all
against us as you imply.

Certainly some traffic engineers could be better informed about cycling. But the original poster's
remark that traffic engineers WANT cyclists to run red lights is outrageous.

Agreed. My experience has been similar to another poster's. If I call the local traffic departments
and tell them about a light not responding to my bike they go and fix it ASAP. I just don't think
they're used to getting calls like that, because most cyclists will just run the lights and not take
the time to call in the light.

Preston

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:12:50 -0800, <[email hidden]>, Ryan Cousineau

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh yeah, regular, strenuous exercise has been proven to reduce both

depression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and anxiety, but I've yet to hear of an MD writing a prescription for a

bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Listen to more doctors, or get a better one. I know of at least one who prescribed (okay, not on
a notepad) exercise, and specifically mentioned cycling as an option, for anxiety.

A bicycle and a vegetable garden brought me back from the gates of hell.

Ya Zoot, whatcha growing in that garden?

Robin Hubert

... and that was part of my original point. Its like being a kid. If you are truthful to your
parents, they'll probably leave you alone to do whatever you want to do 'cause you've proven
yourself. If you start lying to them, they're going to check up on you, question things you're
doing, limit your "freedom," etc.

Same thing with bicycles. If you prove to the car drivers that you're operating within the rules of
the road, not riding like an [censored], you're much less likely to be hassled. Unfortunately, there are
always the exceptions to the rule... (on both sides)

Mike "Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bluto said:

Quoted message said:

> Any cyclist who stops at a stop sign at an open, empty country crossroads, for instance, is
> a hopeless case, an irretrievable tool.

which Harris <[email hidden]> illustrated the mindset that might compel
someone to do a silly thing like that:

Quoted message said:

If people chose to obey laws based on how they "feel," a civilized society would be
impossible.

I was specifically replying to your remark: "How I feel about observing stop signs, one-way
steets, prohibited turns, etc., while on my bike, is very context-sensitive."

Quoted message said:

If people don't apply the same critical thinking to their observance of the law as they do to
practical matters, then a nominally free society will become impossible.

We're not talking about great moral issues like war and peace, civil

rights,

Quoted message said:

or free speech. We're talking about traffic laws. Traffic systems only

work

Quoted message said:

if everyone involved knows and follows the same rules. If everyone were to arbitrarily operate
their vehicles based on how they "feel," there would

be

Quoted message said:

anarchy. I think anyone operating any vehicle should be ticketed for

running

Quoted message said:

red lights, etc. Cyclists may be able to get away with it in many cases,

but

Quoted message said:

in the long run it hurts all of us because it perpetuates the notion that bikes aren't really
vehicles.

Art Harris

Something new to try. Since I ride an AL bike most of the time, there don't seem to be as many
sensors that pick me up... When I ride the steel bike, seems that more sensors pick me up...

Maybe we should outlaw AL, Ti, and Carbon bikes so that the traffic sensors will pick us all up??
Yes, I'm joking!

Mike "Preston Crawford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Harris

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dennis P. Harris said:

"Harris" wrote:

> Do you really believe that traffic engineers want cyclists to run red lights? I don't.
>
if they had their way, bikes would never be on the road. of course, accidents causeed by
dysfunctional traffic lights help demonstrate how "dangerous" it is to ride bikes on the road,
so that they can urge closing roods the bicycles for "safety" reasons.

Do you know any traffic engineers personally? I do. I've known this guy since the mid '70s. He's
ridden the complete "Bikecentennial" route, and often commutes to work by bike. They're not all
against us as you imply.

Certainly some traffic engineers could be better informed about cycling.

But

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the original poster's remark that traffic engineers WANT cyclists to run

red

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lights is outrageous.

Agreed. My experience has been similar to another poster's. If I call the local traffic
departments and tell them about a light not responding to my bike they go and fix it ASAP. I just
don't think they're used to getting calls like that, because most cyclists will just run the
lights and not take the time to call in the light.

Preston

Mike S. said:

Something new to try. Since I ride an AL bike most of the time, there

don't

Quoted message said:

seem to be as many sensors that pick me up... When I ride the steel bike, seems that more sensors
pick me up...

That's a common misconception, Mike. The sensors are METAL detectors; they don't discriminate
against Aluminum or Ti. Even the Aluminum in your rims should activate most sensors. The trick is
knowing where to place your bike. You will usually see cuts in the pavement where the sensor loop is
located. Place your wheels directly over the cut mark at the edge of the loop. It may take 15-30
seconds for the light to cycle after it detects you.

See: draco.acs.uci.edu8i.2.htmlOpen ↗

Art Harris

I've also heard that if you lean the bike over that it helps too.

"Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike S. said:

Something new to try. Since I ride an AL bike most of the time, there

don't

Quoted message said:

seem to be as many sensors that pick me up... When I ride the steel

bike,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seems that more sensors pick me up...

That's a common misconception, Mike. The sensors are METAL detectors; they don't discriminate
against Aluminum or Ti. Even the Aluminum in your rims should activate most sensors. The trick is
knowing where to place your

bike.

Quoted message said:

You will usually see cuts in the pavement where the sensor loop is

located.

Quoted message said:

Place your wheels directly over the cut mark at the edge of the loop. It

may

Quoted message said:

take 15-30 seconds for the light to cycle after it detects you.

See: draco.acs.uci.edu8i.2.htmlOpen ↗

Art Harris

Mike S. said:

I've also heard that if you lean the bike over that it helps too.

Yes, you can place the bike horizontally over the CENTER of the loop, but that's usually not
necessary.

Art Harris

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote:
> > Has common courtesy gone the way of the dodo bird? When did things change?
> >
> >Mike

Summary: Reading through some more sites I learned that SSRI anti-depressants are known as the *I
don't give a damn drug*!
--
zk

Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:54:52 GMT, <[email hidden]>, "Robin

Hubert said:

Ya Zoot, whatcha growing in that garden?

Dinner.
--
zk

"Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How can they stop for a red light? The peloton is gaining on them!

Peloton? Most of the ones I see look like the Metamucil is kickin' in.

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:54:52 GMT, <[email hidden]>, "Robin

Hubert said:

Ya Zoot, whatcha growing in that garden?

Dinner.

Boring. Any pharmaceutical type plants in that gardin? ;-)

Robin Hubert

Sat, 01 Feb 2003 05:48:24 GMT, <[email hidden]>, "Robin

Hubert said:

Boring. Any pharmaceutical type plants in that gardin? ;-)

Garlic, Horseradish, Sage, Maui and Thyme.
--
zk

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote:
>> > Has common courtesy gone the way of the dodo bird? When did things change?
>> >
>> >Mike

Summary: Reading through some more sites I learned that SSRI anti-depressants are known as the *I
don't give a damn drug*!

Well, that certainly makes sense given that they're primarily meant for people with clinical
depression ("I don't want to move"😉 and anxiety ("I worry too much"😉.

If _I_ went on SSRIs, I can see where you might want to worry, since I'm already way out on the
easygoing scale (I know I seem like a big angry ball of jerk on these ngs, but that's because this
is where I let off my stress. In real life I am kind to animals and hardly ever run people off the
road on purpose 🙂.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

In article <[email hidden]>, "Harris"

Quoted message said:

Mike S. said:

Something new to try. Since I ride an AL bike most of the time, there

don't

Quoted message said:

seem to be as many sensors that pick me up... When I ride the steel bike, seems that more
sensors pick me up...

That's a common misconception, Mike. The sensors are METAL detectors; they don't discriminate
against Aluminum or Ti. Even the Aluminum in your rims should activate most sensors. The trick is
knowing where to place your bike. You will usually see cuts in the pavement where the sensor loop
is located. Place your wheels directly over the cut mark at the edge of the loop. It may take
15-30 seconds for the light to cycle after it detects you.

I held this general opinion (and yes, Al is a very good conductor, nearly as good as copper, so good
that for a few horrible years it was used for household wiring before its coefficient of thermal
expansion forced everyone to go back to copper), but was informed by a person who should know better
that ferrous metals are better at triggering induction loops.

I could only find one good reference that seems to refer to a circuit similar to that used in
induction loops:

metaldetector.bratsk-city.ru/teory/bfo.pdf

In this case, the author claims that ferrous and non-ferrous metals cause the detector to react in
completely different ways.

I never had to resort to it, but some motorcyclists like to try tricks like putting a magnet near
the bottom of their bike.

Quoted message said:

See: draco.acs.uci.edu8i.2.htmlOpen ↗

Art Harris

When all is said and done, a good loop detector should be able to pick up a cyclist (there's a left
turn slot I frequently pass through that, miracle of miracles, detects my Al-rimmed steel bike with
ease), but we should probably all be happy that visual detectors are the hot new technology.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Zoot Katz said:

Sat, 01 Feb 2003 05:48:24 GMT, <[email hidden]>, "Robin

Hubert said:

Boring. Any pharmaceutical type plants in that gardin? ;-)

Garlic, Horseradish, Sage, Maui and Thyme.

Whoa. Horseradish! That's heavy stuff, man.

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]