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Red lights, ranting, etc.

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Road Cycling
Published
30 January 2003
Last activity
7 February 2003
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Mike S.
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  1. Ron Hardin said:
    Jon Isaacs said:

    I am curious why you seem to believe stopping at such a stop sign is foolish.

    I look at it as good practice, somewhat of a challenge, and part of developing careful riding
    habits. Stop signs mean Stop and unless there is a good reason not to stop (like a truck about to
    run me over), I think it best to stop.

    That is because you are a borderline mental patient.

    <g> I guess he has your number Jon!

    I don't know if Jon is an actual mental patient but he definitely has a mental deficit.

    In a number of States it is optional for bicyclists while riding a bike, to stop at stop signs and
    red lights.

    Idaho is one.

    Sparhawk

  2. "Sparhawk" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know if Jon is an actual mental patient but he definitely has a mental deficit.

    In a number of States it is optional for bicyclists while riding a bike, to stop at stop signs and
    red lights.

    Idaho is one.

    Sparhawk

    Not quite as cut and dried as "optional". www3.state.id.usnewidst
    ----------
    49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS. (1) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered
    vehicle approaching a stop sign shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before entering
    the intersection. After slowing to a reasonable speed or stopping, the person shall yield the
    right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to
    constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving across or within the
    intersection or junction of highways, except that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and
    yielding the right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed through the
    intersection without stopping.
    (2) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a steady red
    traffic-control signal shall stop before entering the intersection, except that a person
    after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if required, may cautiously
    make a right-hand turn without stopping or may cautiously make a left-hand turn onto a
    one-way highway without stopping.
    -----------

    In some ways, the Idaho law may be considered *more* restrictive towards cyclists. i.e. You must
    yield to anyone else if they are close by. Good out in the country, of which Idaho has a lot. But
    bad in town. A regular state would only require each to go in his turn, with the bike being treated
    as any other vehicle.

    Name another state that has such a provision. While I haven't look at ALL the states' relevant
    laws, I have looked at many. And I've never seen another that says a cyclist does not have to
    actually 'stop'.

    Pete

  3. Pete said:


    "Sparhawk" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know if Jon is an actual mental patient but he definitely has a mental deficit.

    In a number of States it is optional for bicyclists while riding a bike, to stop at stop signs
    and red lights.

    Idaho is one.

    Sparhawk

    Not quite as cut and dried as "optional". www3.state.id.usnewidst
    ----------
    49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS. (1) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered
    vehicle approaching a stop sign shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before entering
    the intersection. After slowing to a reasonable speed or stopping, the person shall yield the
    right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to
    constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving across or within the
    intersection or junction of highways, except that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and
    yielding the right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed through the
    intersection without stopping.
    (2) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a steady red
    traffic-control signal shall stop before entering the intersection, except that a person
    after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if required, may cautiously
    make a right-hand turn without stopping or may cautiously make a left-hand turn onto a
    one-way highway without stopping.
    -----------

    Quoted message said:


    Name another state that has such a provision. While I haven't look at ALL the states' relevant
    laws, I have looked at many. And I've never seen another that says a cyclist does not have to
    actually 'stop'.

    Well good for you, do you know every state law not dealing with bicycles also?

    Quoted message said:

    Pete

    Like I said: "it's optional".

    Wyoming may be another one, I not going to bother looking it up.

    If you are interested do your own research.

    Sparhawk

  4. "Sparhawk" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    Like I said: "it's optional".

    Wyoming may be another one, I not going to bother looking it up.

    If you are interested do your own research.

    Sparhawk


    Whew...what an attitude. Someone [censored] in your Post Toasties?

    You were the one who made the statement "In a number of States ..." Either back up your claim, or we
    can just assume you're just shooting from the hip.

    State bike laws can be found quite easily at www.massbike.org Wyoming specifically is at
    wydotweb.state.wy.usStatutes.html

    "Every person propelling a vehicle by human power or riding a bicycle has all of the rights and all
    of the duties applicable to the driver of any vehicle under this act, except as to special
    regulations in this act and except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no
    application."

    When dealing with a nonstandard regulation, it is wise to actually know what your responsibilities
    are. Someone reading this may assume that "hey...it's optional. I don't have to stop if I don't want
    to." Which is not necessarily true.

    Pete

  5. Zoot Katz said:

    Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:49:24 GMT, <[email hidden]>, "Mike S."

    mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet said:


    I'm constantly amazed at some of the [censored] stuff that both cyclists and drivers do. Has common
    courtesy gone the way of the dodo bird? When did things change?

    Mike

    I trace it back to the widespread prescription of Prozac and its derivatives. About the same time
    as people started "going postal".
    --
    zk

    C'est tout ca change, tout la meme chose.

  6. In article <[email hidden]>, "Peter Cole"

    Quoted message said:

    "Preston Crawford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    So I took these concerns to my doctor, expecting that maybe I could get a referral to a clinical
    psychologist, or run some tests to make sure I didn't have a nutrient imbalance. In response she
    hands me Paxil.

    "Talk therapy" is out, pills are in, blame it on the HMOs. With so many being medicated for
    depression and ADD, I fear the long term consequences. Now that's something worth getting
    anxious over...

    Oh yeah, regular, strenuous exercise has been proven to reduce both depression and anxiety, but
    I've yet to hear of an MD writing a prescription for a bike.

    Listen to more doctors, or get a better one. I know of at least one who prescribed (okay, not on a
    notepad) exercise, and specifically mentioned cycling as an option, for anxiety.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  7. [email hidden] wrote in message news:<qfOMuGrZTFdc-pn2-Y2gZLuIk1Qdm@merlin>...

    Quoted message said:

    both my md and the orthosurgeon that is going to be peeking into my knee prescribed my riding and
    suggested that i up my time in the saddle.

    now I can go riding on doctors orders.

    That's kewl! You've got some refreshingly progressive medical people on your side.

    If I still had my Fleetwood Mac 'English Rose' album, I'd put on "Doctor Brown" in your honour :-)

    My gf's been dealing with Paxil, and then Zanax (sp?) -- mostly trying to get off them. Her doctor
    says they aren't addictive, but yet there's an horrendous withdrawl to them. I've gotta get her out
    in the fresh air and [intermittent] sunshine more, so her tan gets as good as mine (although it's
    fading, during these January days ...) She's just graduated from an intense Comp Sci program. All
    that educational stress, indoor desk-sitting-at, etc., takes quite a toll on a body. And mind.

    She doesn't drive, so I guess she's immune to road rage. "Kitchen rage" is another story <w>

    cheers, Tom

  8. "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rcousine-

    Quoted message said:


    1966?

    utexas.edunytimes111798.html

    The Clock Tower shooting.


    Getting further OT here, but... I went up to the top of this tower post the Whitman massacre in
    1966, and before they shut it down due to student suicides in 1975.

    This was one of the strangest places I have ever been. My impression was that they had done the top
    of the tower up sort of like a museum TO Whitman. The general impression I had was that whoever had
    designed this small museum was basking in the infamy as a form of notoriety.

    That was just my impression, visiting the University of Texas as a college student come to a
    tournament. It may not have been the impression which was intended. I thought I was a tough, cynical
    college student, but the place really made me nauseous. It was no surprise to me that it became a
    student suicide spot.

    It doesn't have to be this way with locations of infamy. I work just east of Haymarket Square in
    Chicago, scene of the famous Haymarket riot in the late 19th century. In this case, the city has
    pretty much obliterated all trace of this incident; there is only one plaque in the sidewalk noting
    the event. An old monument has been removed. The Kennedy Expressway runs 10 lanes through the middle
    of the old square. Only one building remains from that era, and the name "Haymarket" occurs only on
    the local post office.

    I think, personally, that's the way it should be with the World Trade Center site. We should just
    put some nondescript financial buildings back there so it doesn't become some sort of magnet, so
    eventually the terrorist bombings can become history book material, but not "right there on the
    street" material. So there's no place to sell tacky souvenirs. Some things you just want to allow to
    heal, and scar tissue is to be avoided.

    Mike Kruger (now way, way off topic)

  9. "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet>

    Quoted message said:

    I'm constantly amazed at some of the [censored] stuff that both cyclists and drivers do. Has common
    courtesy gone the way of the dodo bird? When did things change?

    There is a new breed of cyclist... those with no class... no common sense... and a sick desire to
    be... ("wannabe"😉 ...Lance Armstrong.

    Regretfully we all pay the price for the wannabe faction of bicyclists.

    hth

  10. "Bluto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (Jon Isaacs) said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > Any cyclist who stops at a stop sign at an open, empty country crossroads, for instance, is
    > > a hopeless case, an irretrievable


    tool.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I am curious why you seem to believe stopping at such a stop sign is


    foolish.

    Quoted message said:


    It displays mental inflexibility. It implies that whatever the sign says


    is so important that all other factors cease to matter.

    It's also really bad ju-ju. You have to live in Seattle to really understand ju-ju. But once you get
    it, you've got it, and from that point on you're mentally clear and morally superior, and you can do
    whatever you want, run stop signs until the cows play hockey, as long as your ju-ju stays good. OR,
    as they say in Tacoma, Baaaaaad.

  11. Isn't the tower open again?

    "Mike Kruger" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The Clock Tower shooting.

    Quoted message said:

    I think, personally, that's the way it should be with the World Trade


    Center

    Quoted message said:

    site. We should just put some nondescript financial buildings back there


    so

    Quoted message said:

    it doesn't become some sort of magnet, so eventually the terrorist


    bombings

    Quoted message said:

    can become history book material, but not "right there on the street" material. So there's no
    place to sell tacky souvenirs. Some things you


    just

    Quoted message said:

    want to allow to heal, and scar tissue is to be avoided.

  12. Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:12:50 -0800, <[email hidden]>, Ryan Cousineau

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Oh yeah, regular, strenuous exercise has been proven to reduce both depression and anxiety, but
    I've yet to hear of an MD writing a prescription for a bike.

    Listen to more doctors, or get a better one. I know of at least one who prescribed (okay, not on a
    notepad) exercise, and specifically mentioned cycling as an option, for anxiety.

    A bicycle and a vegetable garden brought me back from the gates of hell.
    --
    zk

  13. Quoted message said:

    The way one develops a habit is by responding in the same way to the same situation at all times.
    That is much the same as observing a rule.

    This is bad?

    Quoted message said:

    Constantly evaluating one's situation and remaining aware enough to respond flexibly is the
    opposite of forming a habit.

    No argument there, but...

    Quoted message said:

    I proceed without stopping when appropriate, regardless of traffic signs.

    So you're saying that you actually waste time evaluating whether to stop at an inanimate
    signal? Doesn't that detract from the more important task of being aware of the exceptions,
    rather than the rule?

    As a traffic rider, I can say with a certain amount of confidence that introducing new variables
    is a bad idea. As a lazy person, I find that following the rules is easier on me and on other
    road users.

    And, as a practical person, I want no questions to be raised in the aftermath of any accident as to
    which operator was at fault.

    I know this all sounds very much like a safety lecture, and I'm sorry about that. However, I can't
    think of any more compelling way of making this argument.

    Several people have pointed out, nicely, that there is a social contract involved in road use, and
    that cyclists are not exempt from it. This is a fundamental precept of road cycling. Adherence to
    the traffic laws is a basic concept that supersedes individual judgement of whether or not a control
    device is appropriate. If you don't like the stop sign at Dogpatch and Canyon, write your
    councilperson, but for now you have to stop.

    Or you can ignore the social contract (traffic law) since your situational awareness and judgement
    is superior. You can ride like a messenger, even though you have no tags to make. That doesn't make
    you cool, by the way.

    You might want to look into the messenger profession, I understand there are always openings.

    Interesting, I think, that most of the people disagreeing with your position are old farts with
    plenty of sedate years of happy and pain free cycling under their belts, not to mention a few
    good meals.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

  14. "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Listen to more doctors, or get a better one. I know of at least one who prescribed (okay, not on a
    notepad) exercise, and specifically mentioned cycling as an option, for anxiety.

    If one is suffering from anxiety I would hope their doctor would subscribe medication... or perhaps
    a combination therapy to include bike exercise and medication.

    fwiw

  15. While I applaud anyone's willingness to get on a bike to try and be Lance, I really don't like the
    attitudes exhibited by riders when people disobey common sense and courtesy in traffic. Just because
    you CAN do something doesn't mean you necessarily SHOULD do that thing.

    ...and then I lost my train of thought... Time for bed.

    Mike "Golightly F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news😄Xn_9.950$yU6.423@fe01...

    Quoted message said:

    "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet>

    Quoted message said:

    I'm constantly amazed at some of the [censored] stuff that both cyclists


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    drivers do. Has common courtesy gone the way of the dodo bird? When


    did

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    things change?

    There is a new breed of cyclist... those with no class... no common


    sense...

    Quoted message said:

    and a sick desire to be... ("wannabe"😉 ...Lance Armstrong.

    Regretfully we all pay the price for the wannabe faction of bicyclists.

    hth

  16. 30 Jan 2003 19:12:15 -0800, <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Tom

    Keats) said:

    My gf's been dealing with Paxil, and then Zanax (sp?) -- mostly trying to get off them. Her doctor
    says they aren't addictive, but yet there's an horrendous withdrawl to them.

    It takes a year for a safe withdrawl from Paxil.
    --
    zk

  17. How're you defining "old fart?" I'm just now 35, but don't consider myself "old!" Especially when
    Hylton Clark can kick my [censored] all over the road and he's almost (if not already) 60!

    "Eric S. Sande" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The way one develops a habit is by responding in the same way to the same situation at all times.
    That is much the same as observing a rule.

    This is bad?

    Quoted message said:

    Constantly evaluating one's situation and remaining aware enough to respond flexibly is the
    opposite of forming a habit.

    No argument there, but...

    Quoted message said:

    I proceed without stopping when appropriate, regardless of traffic signs.

    So you're saying that you actually waste time evaluating whether to stop at an inanimate signal?
    Doesn't that detract from the more important task of being aware of the exceptions, rather than
    the rule?

    As a traffic rider, I can say with a certain amount of confidence that introducing new variables
    is a bad idea. As a lazy person, I find that following the rules is easier on me and on other
    road users.

    And, as a practical person, I want no questions to be raised in the aftermath of any accident as
    to which operator was at fault.

    I know this all sounds very much like a safety lecture, and I'm sorry about that. However, I can't
    think of any more compelling way of making this argument.

    Several people have pointed out, nicely, that there is a social contract involved in road use, and
    that cyclists are not exempt from it. This is a fundamental precept of road cycling. Adherence to
    the traffic laws is a basic concept that supersedes individual judgement of whether or not a
    control device is appropriate. If you don't like the stop sign at Dogpatch and Canyon, write your
    councilperson, but for now you have to stop.

    Or you can ignore the social contract (traffic law) since your situational awareness and judgement
    is superior. You can ride like a messenger, even though you have no tags to make. That doesn't
    make you cool, by the way.

    You might want to look into the messenger profession, I understand there are always openings.

    Interesting, I think, that most of the people disagreeing with your position are old farts with
    plenty of sedate years of happy and pain free cycling under their belts, not to mention a few
    good meals.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

  18. Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:12:02 GMT, <[email hidden]>, Preston Crawford

    Quoted message said:

    So I took these concerns to my doctor, expecting that maybe I could get a referral to a clinical
    psychologist, or run some tests to make sure I didn't have a nutrient imbalance. In response she
    hands me Paxil. Now, I didn't take the Paxil.

    Good thing. drugawareness.org41701Paxil.html

    This page got me even more upset. diabetes.pair.combody star prozac.htm
    --
    zk

  19. "Golightly F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:94o_9.1016$yU6.208@fe01...

    Quoted message said:

    "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Listen to more doctors, or get a better one. I know of


    at least one who

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    prescribed (okay, not on a notepad) exercise, and


    specifically mentioned

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cycling as an option, for anxiety.

    Quoted message said:

    If one is suffering from anxiety I would hope their doctor


    would subscribe

    Quoted message said:

    medication... or perhaps a combination therapy to include


    bike exercise and

    Quoted message said:

    medication.

    Doctors *do* prescribe exercise -- just like they prescribe quitting smoking, a healthier diet, etc.
    And we all know how well people stick to *those* prescriptions...

    Matt O.

  20. Quoted message said:

    How're you defining "old fart?" I'm just now 35, but don't consider myself "old!" Especially when
    Hylton Clark can kick my [censored] all over the road and he's almost (if not already) 60!

    You old farts know who you are, eh?

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

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