Red lights, ranting, etc.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Serious cyclists put playing cards in their spokes so motorists

know they're really vehicles.<<<

HEY, RON! Stop making me laugh while I'm trying to carry on a knock-down/drag out argument!!!!!!!

Quoted message said:

Mike,

I couldn't agree more with everything you say. We get frustrated at motorists for the bonehead
things they do then we have to watch our fellow cyclists do things equally as dangerous and
boneheaded. It only makes things tough for all of us.

My sentiments as well.

Quoted message said:

Let me add one thing, regarding your last comment "When did things change?". As a native of San
Diego who has been cycling in this city for more than 20 years things have always been this
way, IMO.

Tom

I can't say for sure, I had my first successful bicycle ride in Encinitas just about 50 years ago.
Lot of things have changed, in those 50 years.

Jon Isaacs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote:
> Has common courtesy gone the way of the dodo bird? When did things change?
>
>Mike

Zoot Katz said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I trace it back to the widespread prescription of Prozac and its derivatives. About the same
time as people started "going postal".

Bad form, I know, but I offer this as support to my observation.

Quoted message said:

A quick google on _road rage prozac_ turns up some scary stuff.

One cute link was to a St. Louis M.D. recommending SSRI for managing anger and quelling road rage.
Another funny hit was a young mommies chat board discussing their meds and one sweetie noting a
side effect as "a state of constant road rage" whenever she was driving while being on Praxil.
(Relax, she's since switched meds!)

"Road Rage" isn't a new phenomenon but its increase is a symptom of a social disease that may be
drug induced and have far reaching implications.

This was snipped from a discussion of Wall Street's "Prozac Bubble" ------/ After devoting the last
ten-plus years to researching and writing about these serotonergic agents, working with those who
have had adverse reactions to the drugs, and testifying as an expert witness in criminal cases
involving these drugs, I can state without hesitation that I have seen similar reactions in patients
on these antidepressants for years. I have even mentioned that these drugs really keep the economy
moving - unfortunately the overspending keeps the bankruptcy courts busy as well. (Note how
bankruptcy has sky-rocketed since the introduction of these drugs.)

It is way past time for the world to wake up the most devastating drug problem the world has ever
seen which is the result of the use of these so-called antidepressants. The very fiber of our
society is almost gone as a result. They have created many new terms and situations that we have
never witnessed prior to the introduction of SSRI antidepressants--such as: "Murder-Suicide",
"Suicide by Cop", "Road Rage", "False Memory Syndrome", "Workplace Violence", "School Shootings",
mothers killing their children (approximately 90% of these mothers are on these drugs), women
committing violent crimes, out of the blue one family member kills their entire family, etc. And
those are only the psychiatric side effects. The physical side effects are just as destructive:
diabetes, heart damage, MS, fybromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, to list only a few of so many
reported to the FDA.

--Dr. Ann Blake Tracy -----\

That may sound a bit shrill but it got me thinking; there's 1/7 of the entire US populace on these
drugs then I'd think it fair to assume there's more young and middle aged adults using it than
children and persons over 65. But we'll just stick with the minimum and figure one in seven drivers.
Now, according to Dr.James Missett's professional experience, 7/40 of his patients on Prozac felt
violent while 5 wanted to ram things with their car and had been ticketed for their driving, I'd say
we're looking at a minimum of one out of every 56 drivers having a higher potential for acting out
their road rage with the second most commonly used weapon in fatal road rage incidents, their car.

The perpetrator and victim profile covers the entire range of the social and economic spectrum.
Cyclists could be targets simply because they're vulnerable or serve as a trigger mechanism for one
of the episodes that
Dr. Briggen's testimony gets criminals reduced sentences. -----/
(1) SSRI-induced mania, sometimes (but not always) with psychotic features, such as hallucinations
or delusions. During drug-induced mania, the individual can make elaborate plans, including
robberies or embezzlement. However, the plans are often outlandish and doomed to failure due to
obviously poor judgment. Drug-induced mania can cause many expressions of disinhibited or
out-of-control behavior, including sexual acting out, road rage, buying sprees and shoplifting.
Drug-induced mania, even when seemingly not intense, can ruin marriages and destroy careers. All
of the features of mania are not required in order to meet the diagnosis of
Antidepressant-Induced Mood Disorder with Manic Features. If the individual's mood is "elevated,
euphoric, or irritable," the necessary criteria are met.
(2) SSRI-induced depression or worsening of depression. In a seemingly paradoxical effect,
antidepressants can cause or worsen depression. In controlled clinical trials for Prozac
that were conducted by the manufacturer, Eli Lilly and Company, depressed patients taking
Prozac attempted suicide more frequently than depressed patients taking placebo (sugar pill)
or older antidepressants.
(3) SSRI-induced severe anxiety and agitation, especially in a patient already suffering from
depression with anxiety and agitation;
(4) SSRI-induced obsessions and compulsions that motivate violence toward oneself or others.
(5) SSRI-induced akathisia, an internal sensation of agitation or discomfort that drives a
person to move about, and also to lose impulse control. During akathisia, the inner
experience of agitation includes many unusual physical feelings, such as electricity in the
head or body. The person suffering from akathisia typically feels compelled to move the feet
when sitting, to stand, or to pace. Akathisia is known to increase the risk of suicide and
violence. ----\ Reading an AAA report on road rage incidents, in which bicycles aren't
mentioned, the excuses used by murders were of the most banal nature. "She stole my parking
spot", "He almost ran me off the road, what was I supposed to do?", "Nobody gives me the
finger", etc

Bugs on drugs sure adds colour to dancing with dunces.
--
zk

Quoted message said:

I think there are some reasons for going through a red light. One is that if the raos is a T
and the entering road is on the left then there is no harm in riding through on the shoulder of
the road.

Actually what you are doing here is taking the right of way for cyclists entering from your left who
have the green light. I see this occasionally because most cyclists only look for cars and only
consider cars rather than looking for other cyclists who will need the right of way.

Your rational would apply equally to motorists who see no one coming from the left.

Stop lights means STOP for cyclists and cars.

Jon Isaacs

Quoted message said:

I hate stop signs and lights as much as the next guy, but what the heck, it does improve your
sprinting when you have to keep catching up to the group you're riding with!

Actually, I don't hate stop signs and stop lights. Not only do help regulate the traffic (most of
the time) but sometimes provide a nice opportunity for a brief rest.

San Diego riders will be familiar with the light at Carmel Vallery road on 101. It is in the middle
of a 3/4 mile long 5% grade.

When I used to ride that route every day I would think to myself when the light turned red:

"Oh darn, now I have to stop and rest."

I thought that light had a valuable lesson and that was that while as a motorist I detest stop signs
and stop lights, as a cyclist, I do not find them objectionable.

Besides if ones best suit is sprinting, lights are a good thing. Gives me a chance to leave those
skinny guys with endurance in the dust.

Jon Isaacs

Mike S. said:

I'll answer that one. YES, if he were riding a $50 Schwinn it would still bother me. Reason being
drivers can't seem to tell the freds from those of us on nicer bikes.

Freds don't ride $50 Schwinns. A typical Fred is a middle aged guy (usually 50 pounds overweight)
riding a Trek 5900 in USPS colors.

Art Harris

Bluto said:

How I feel about observing stop signs, one-way steets, prohibited turns, etc., while on my bike,
is very context-sensitive.

If people chose to obey laws based on how they "feel," a civilized society would be impossible. How
often do you run red lights when driving a car?

Art Harris

In article said:

One cute link was to a St. Louis M.D. recommending SSRI for managing anger and quelling road
rage. Another funny hit was a young mommies chat board discussing their meds and one sweetie
noting a side effect as "a state of constant road rage" whenever she was driving while being on
Praxil. (Relax, she's since switched meds!)

The funny thing about all this is that my Dr. offered me Paxil. I was having some anxiety problems.
You see, I'd just lost 150lbs. in roughly
1.5 years. So my body was going through a ton of changes. On top of that
2/11 happened (and I'm the type of guy that worries about all the worlds problems, even if I can't
fix them, so that was a doozy for me). I come from a very poor background, so I've had to fight
and work my way out of poverty, lifting my family as much as I can in the process. And then the
capper is that I have sleep apnea (so I don't get quality sleep, ever, basically). So I took these
concerns to my doctor, expecting that maybe I could get a referral to a clinical psychologist, or
run some tests to make sure I didn't have a nutrient imbalance. In response she hands me Paxil.
Now, I didn't take the Paxil. And eventually I convinced her to run the tests to allay my fears
and to give me that referral so I could talk through what I feel are legitimate reasons why one
might be anxious. But the fact that in spite of all the above factors she thought FIRST to hand me
medication is testament to the problem we have in this country. You might have anxiety problems if
your body is a little screwy, the burden of an entire family is on your shoulders and you
basically don't get normal sleep. I mean, she couldn't accept that that just might be normal and
that I would need treatment to cope with these real anxieties rather than a drug to "fix" me.

Preston

[email hidden] (Bluto) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mike S.' mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet said:

I was riding up the 101 here in San Diego yesterday. (as an aside, it was cool enough to have to
wear arm and knee warmers) and noticed a disturbing trend among the riders I was near. Seems
that some guys have the mistaken belief that they can run red lights on their bicycles.

At an empty intersection with plenty of visibility, I'll blow through that sucker at speed.
Just like navigating the hallways of an empty building-- no traffic, no traffic rules. Applied
common sense.

Any cyclist who stops at a stop sign at an open, empty country crossroads, for instance, is a
hopeless case, an irretrievable tool.

Then I am "a hopeless case, an irretrievable tool". Let me ask you something, Bluto, if you approach
"a stop sign at an open, empty country crossroads" in you automobile do you "blow through that
sucker at speed"?

Quoted message said:

I don't wait for the "walk" signal to cross an empty street either

Maybe it's an western half of the country thing. In Chicago, where my parents are from, no one pays
any attention to the walk signs, traffic or not. That totally amazed me the first time I went to
the midwest.

Tom

"Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bluto said:

How I feel about observing stop signs, one-way steets, prohibited turns, etc., while on my bike,
is very context-sensitive.

If people chose to obey laws based on how they "feel," a civilized society would be impossible.
How often do you run red lights when driving a car?

He sounds like an anarchist to me. He doesn't feel that laws apply to him. He gets to decide which
ones to obey or not obey as he sees fit.

"Preston Crawford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So I took these concerns to my doctor, expecting that maybe I could get a referral to a clinical
psychologist, or run some tests to make sure I didn't have a nutrient imbalance. In response she
hands me Paxil.

"Talk therapy" is out, pills are in, blame it on the HMOs. With so many being medicated for
depression and ADD, I fear the long term consequences. Now that's something worth getting
anxious over...

Oh yeah, regular, strenuous exercise has been proven to reduce both depression and anxiety, but I've
yet to hear of an MD writing a prescription for a bike.

Mark Jones <[email hidden]> wrote:
: "Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: "]news:[email hidden]...
:> Bluto <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:> > How I feel about observing stop signs, one-way steets, prohibited turns, etc., while on my
:> > bike, is very context-sensitive.
:>
:> If people chose to obey laws based on how they "feel," a civilized society would be impossible.
:> How often do you run red lights when driving a car?

: He sounds like an anarchist to me.

You say that like it's a *bad* thing. [...]
: He gets to decide which ones to obey or not obey as he sees fit.

Doesn't everybody? Have you never jaywalked?

--
'People think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time All day long I think of things
but nothing seems to satisfy' 'Make a joke and I will sigh And you will laugh and I will
cry' -Black Sabbath

Peter Cole said:

Oh yeah, regular, strenuous exercise has been proven to reduce both depression and anxiety, but
I've yet to hear of an MD writing a prescription for a bike.

Hell no. That might cure the consumer (er, I mean patient).

Mike S.' mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet said:

Please help my understand why an otherwise law-abiding car driver suddenly feels that he/she's not
bound by the rules of the road just because they're riding a bicycle.

These would be the same law-abiding car drivers who exceed the speed limit, drive under the
influence, right-hook, left-cross, pull out in front of cyclists, cut cyclists off, door them, park
on the sidewalk.... hang on, what was that "law-abiding" bit?

Most road users, in my experience, will only obey those laws they think they stand a reasonable
chance of getting arrested if they break.

Guy
===
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In article <[email hidden]>, Just zis Guy, you know?

Quoted message said:

These would be the same law-abiding car drivers who exceed the speed limit, drive under the
influence, right-hook, left-cross, pull out in front of cyclists, cut cyclists off, door them, park
on the sidewalk.... hang on, what was that "law-abiding" bit?

Most road users, in my experience, will only obey those laws they think they stand a reasonable
chance of getting arrested if they break.

In the above, I'd substitute "those laws whose violation they think has a reasonable chance of
causing a crash."

They assume, for example, that opening a car door isn't likely to result in someone
crashing into it.

And unfortunately bicyclists are rare enough that they're probably right, to some degree.

--b.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Peter Cole"

Quoted message said:

"Talk therapy" is out, pills are in, blame it on the HMOs. With so many being medicated for
depression and ADD, I fear the long term consequences. Now that's something worth getting
anxious over...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

Oh yeah, regular, strenuous exercise has been proven to reduce both depression and anxiety,

... on the mental level. Also improves sleep patterns, digestion and other physical systems. Fresh
air and vitamin D can work wonders for one's demeanour and outlook, while closer contact with one's
physical and social surroundings provide a spiritual boost. Gee whiz, this almost sounds /holistic/!

Quoted message said:

but I've yet to hear of an MD writing a prescription for a bike.

I guess they don't want to be accused of taking an holistic approach. Especially the MDs who get
"kickbacks" from pharmaceuti... naw, don't wanna go there; that's getting waayy too OT.

A parallel pattern I perceive is how the "stresses of daily life" seem to increase with additions of
"modern conveniences". I figure the time-line origin Zoot mentioned (1966) is also roughly when
folks began to not have to get up and walk to the TV to change the channel, and when people no
longer had to hand-feed laundry through washing machine wringers. The more time (and effort) we free
up, the less time (and effort) we seem to actually have.

Maybe we expect popping pills to solve problems while we statically sit there and wait for it to
happen, to be like any other modern convenience. IOW, maybe over-reliance on certain prescription
drugs is just another, /exascerbating/ symptom of the same underlying societal dysfunctionalities
that lead to antisocial behaviours.

And maybe all many of us really need to do, is to just move around a little more, and breathe a
little deeper. /Be/ a little self- inflictedly inconvenienced from time to time. After all, that's
pretty much what an exercise regime *is*, in a way. Which gets back to your point about exercise.

<\tongue-in-cheek> Maybe it's an alien conspiracy to make sedentary, fatted calves of us.
<tongue-in-cheek>

cheers, Tom

--
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remove NO_SPAM. from address to reply

I said:

Quoted message said:

Any cyclist who stops at a stop sign at an open, empty country crossroads, for instance, is a
hopeless case, an irretrievable tool.

which Harris <[email hidden]> illustrated the mindset that might compel someone
to do a silly thing like that:

Quoted message said:

If people chose to obey laws based on how they "feel," a civilized society would be impossible.

If people don't apply the same critical thinking to their observance of the law as they do to
practical matters, then a nominally free society will become impossible.

Don't be a tool. At least not on purpose.

Quoted message said:

How often do you run red lights when driving a car?

Considering I don't own a car, not often. And only by mistake. Cars kill people, you know?

Chalo Colina

sharing the road does not mean kowtowing to futility

tkeats@NO_SPAM.vcn.bc.ca (Tom Keats) spake thusly on or about Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:35:11 UTC

-> > but I've yet to hear of an MD writing a prescription for a bike. -> -> I guess they don't want
to be accused of taking an holistic approach. -> Especially the MDs who get "kickbacks" from
pharmaceuti... naw, -> don't wanna go there; that's getting waayy too OT. ->

both my md and the orthosurgeon that is going to be peeking into my knee prescribed my riding and
suggested that i up my time in the saddle.

now I can go riding on doctors orders.

--
I hurt before the ride so fibro gives me a head start on the rest of the pack. silver lining?
[email hidden]

(J. Bruce Fields) said:

Quoted message said:

Most road users, in my experience, will only obey those laws they think they stand a reasonable
chance of getting arrested if they break.

Quoted message said:

In the above, I'd substitute "those laws whose violation they think has a reasonable chance of
causing a crash."

Well, to be blunt, it's more like "those laws whose violation they think has a reasonable chance of
causing a crash resulting in their own injury or inconvenience." I don't see much evidence that they
care a whole lot about killing pedestrians and cyclists.

Guy
===
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"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I think there are some reasons for going through a red light. One is that if the raos is a T
and the entering road is on the left then there is no harm in riding through on the shoulder of
the road.

There could be harm if:

1. A cyclist is on the entering road, making a left, and expecting to ride on the shoulder of the
through road. He's not expecting you, and you might not see him, either.

2. A car making a left from the entering road might turn too wide and drive onto the shoulder,
colliding with you or forcing you to make an emergency stop.

There is just such an intersection on a major bicycle route around here (Foothill and San Antonio,
for those in the south SFBA). From the through part of the T, you can't get a clear view of all the
traffic waiting to turn left.

Stella