Red Blood Count - Increase The Natural Way

[steve007]

Originally posted by Ted B
Sure, when administed in great amounts via IV injection in conjunction with ornithine. Even so, the elevated GH levels are fleeting at best.

As far the propaganda one may read regarding oral administration of amino acids to release GH, most of the referenced studiers are taken out of context and twisted into ad copy. Consider the 'fine print':

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10496544&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12093449

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8220395

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8220394

Yes of course - I understand all of what you are saying. I'm not suggesting for one moment that an amino acid will replace HGH as used by some athletes!

However, It is true to say that someone who experiences no muscle growth at all, may be deficient in certain amino acids.

In all the studies above listed with NCBI they were conducted using healthy normal subjects, with normal levels of GH.

 

[Ted B]

Originally posted by steve007
However, It is true to say that someone who experiences no muscle growth at all, may be deficient in certain amino acids.

True, especially where essential amino acids are concerned. It is reasonable to assume that any athlete who suffers from a deficit in the amino acid pool will suffer trickle down effects as well, even possibly catabolic reduction of muscle to make needed amino acids available.

Originally posted by steve007
Tribulus does work, some my say not and unfortunately there is a lack of OFFICIAL scientific research, however this is not to say it does not work.

I didn't get much out of my stint with it (an Eastern European preparation), and there is a bit of published research on this herb. What the research shows is that T.T. does not increase free testosterone nor does it appear to increase strength levels beyond a control (placebo) group:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10861339

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10997957


What the research DID show is that certain saponins present in T.T. have a positive effect on erectile dysfunction, but this seems to be the result of a conversion of the active saponin to DHEA and has no bearing on serum androgens:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10849504


While age old claims of certain herbs being beneficial for erectile dysfunction have indeen been proven to at least some degree (e.g. ginseng, yohimbe, Tribulus t., etc.), the mechanisms by which this happens does not apply to the mechanisms that directly influence gains in strength or muscle mass. But naturally, supplement sellers stay in business by selling supplements, not presenting accurate interpretations of studies.

 

[Aztec]

Originally posted by ricstern
aztec,

do they make you workout in the gym as well as bike training? at this time of year? that would definitely be counter productive

ric

I lift for upper body 2x per week (or sometimes less often). A couple sets of overhead press, 1 or 2 sets of chins, 1 set of dips. Nothing major; maybe 15 mins each workout, usually after a ride. Never on recovery days, etc.

I struggled to gain when not riding, too.

 

[steve007]

Ok, since we are kind of into natural methods in this thread, here is another thing i take which has given me excellent gains - L-CARNITINE L-TARTRATE.

Increased VO2, train harder and faster recovery.

 

[Ted B]

Originally posted by steve007
Ok, since we are kind of into natural methods in this thread, here is another thing i take which has given me excellent gains - L-CARNITINE L-TARTRATE...

Well Steve, sorry to disappoint you, but the literature says...


Actually, I take the acetylated form, which although more expensive, definitely delivers a positive effect to both mind and body.

 

[steve007]

hee hee, NO thats impossible! - I've checked up on this one on ncbi, in preparation for the onslaught! Research shows definite gains vo2 and recovery wise.

Yeah of course its important to take a quality product and ensure its L-CARNITINE L-TARTRATE and not the old version.

 

[drewjc]

steve007. I have never really looked into any supplements including legal or banned substances, but how can u say that these ones all help you? Have u done trials with them all separately and in different combinations to prove as much? do u take blood before and after each ride along with HR etc.? I just find it hard to believe that there is quite a lot of evidence against what you are saying, but you maintain your positon that these substances have ergogenic qualities. Especially in regards to your VO2 etc. How often do u have your VO2 max measured?

cheers

 

[steve007]

I get my VO2 measured as often as i like - I'm lucky because my brother works in drug research doing clinical trials, so getting it measured is very easy (and free!).

Of course to attribute gains to one particular supplement is very hard and in my position not a requirement. I can only say what works for me personally and share it with the forum, which i believe is important.

But supplements, diet, training are all very personal things, what works for me might not work for you.

 

[TTer]

Originally posted by steve007
I get my VO2 measured as often as i like - I'm lucky because my brother works in drug research doing clinical trials, so getting it measured is very easy (and free!).

What method do they use to measure your VO2max Steve007? I've never heard of VO2max being measured in a clinical trial

 

[steve007]

They have a treadmill i run on and they take readings based on air in/out etc.

As far as i am aware the machine they have is used to measure Vo2 before and after taking whatever drug they are testing. I have heard him talking about asthma and anti-histamine tests, but i dont know for sure. What i do know is that they pay people to take part in the research and they are monitored 24 hours a day and live within the facility for periods up to 8 weeks and a variety of fitness/health tests take place.

Sorry to have confused you!

 

[Ted B]

Originally posted by steve007
Yeah of course its important to take a quality product and ensure its L-CARNITINE L-TARTRATE and not the old version.

L-Carnitine L-Tartrate (LCLT) has been shown to reduce markers of muscular stress that appear in blood serum, which indicates that it protects against cell damage and promotes recovery.

Acetyl-L-Carnitine however, is not the 'old version', and is the active form in the body. It causes positive effects on mitochondrial function and ATP production during exercise:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12199155

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11925454

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11388776

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11315193

 

[steve007]

Both have positive effects. I've seen the 2 combined in experiements. As far as i was aware there were differences between L-Carnitine and L-Carnitine L-Tartrate.....but its....ooh dare i say it.......ok its possible i am wrong!

 

[Roadie_scum]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11925454

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11388776

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11315193

Those crazy bodybuilding rats love their carnitine. Can't wait to sink their little rodent teeth into it. Mmmm... yummy, they think. I love being a buff little gym rat. Gotta get me some protein dense feed pellets, hopefully laced with creatine. It's a shame my differing metabolic pathways mean that the untested hypothesis regarding growth hormone production in humans this work yields remains just that.

 

[Ted B]

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
It's a shame my differing metabolic pathways mean that the untested hypothesis regarding growth hormone production in humans this work yields remains just that.

Ha!

A quick search of my posts will reveal that my contention is and has always been: Want HGH? Inject HGH.

I just posted the blurb to that study because I happened across it and found the notion somewhat amusing.

 

[steve007]

why are we taling HGH all of a sudden?!

 

[Ted B]

Originally posted by steve007
why are we taling HGH all of a sudden?!

Because if you looked at the links I posted pertinent to ALCAR, you would have seen this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11388776

 

[Ted B]

Originally posted by steve007
Both have positive effects. I've seen the 2 combined in experiements. As far as i was aware there were differences between L-Carnitine and L-Carnitine L-Tartrate.....but its....ooh dare i say it.......ok its possible i am wrong!

LCLT is essentially a stabilized form of L-Carnitine. ALCAR has better bioavailability (more effetive) and gives all the benefits of fatty acid transport of regular L-Carnitine or LCLT, with the added benefit that it crosses the blood/brain barrier and has an positive effect on the brain during episides of stress. There are studies that indicate that co-supplementation with alpha lipoic acid may further protection from oxidative stress, but I haven't read enough about it yet to form a real opinion.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/alpha-lipoic-acid.html