Re: WHY???

Dave Smith said:

John Kane said:

.

Quoted message said:

Gun crimes, and I suspect defensive actions with guns are very low in
Switzerland, quite probably because every adult male is fairly well
trained in the use and dangers of guns [1]. IIRC even suicides by gun
are suprising low compared to other OECD countries. It appears that
guns are just a tool that one keeps in the closet until the invasion
happens, not something one carries around daily.

People tend to point to certain ethnic minorities and recent immigrant
groups to account for their high crime rates. Switzerland has very tight
immigration laws. It just doesn't let them into the country.

Always a possiblity but IIRC historically NO. I was simply referring
to Switzerland since Omelet had mentioned it. You may notice despite
the occasional ruckus in T.O, we are not shooting people at anywhere
near the US rate. And look at France, UK , Japan, etc. Gun crimes are
very low in all the other OECD countries compared with the USA.

However, IMO, this is likely not only due to a lot of uncontrolled
guns but to a cultural difference. Americans "believe" in guns. Mind
you as one of my favourite SF writers says( badly paraphrased), " It
is hard to do a drive-by with a battle axe".

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Pete C. said:

Dave Smith said:

John Kane said:

.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Gun crimes, and I suspect defensive actions with guns are very low in
Switzerland, quite probably because every adult male is fairly well
trained in the use and dangers of guns [1]. IIRC even suicides by gun
are suprising low compared to other OECD countries. It appears that
guns are just a tool that one keeps in the closet until the invasion
happens, not something one carries around daily.

Quoted message said:

People tend to point to certain ethnic minorities and recent immigrant
groups to account for their high crime rates. Switzerland has very tight
immigration laws. It just doesn't let them into the country.

Quite true. It's of course racist and not politically correct to point
that out, but the statistics do show the distribution of crime is not
exactly even.

And just where is here? And could you supply a link to the stats?
When I worked in a jail most of my inmate staff were native-born
Canadians. A lot of roofers for some reason.

Quoted message said:

Then there is of course the question of whether it's who
you let in, or how "disadvantaged" they end up when they get here.

Yes, I am sure the Governor General of Canada and the previous GG
would agree totally. 🙂

Quoted message said:

If if points out one thing, and something they are starting to realize in
Europe finally, it's that you can't just let them in and then ignore
them, you have to follow up to see that they are able to assimilate
properly.

We're working on it. Come to think of it, Sir John A seems to have
assimilated fairly well ( for a Scottish Tory that is).

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Omelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ophelia said:

Anyone carrying a knife or pepper spray will find themselve in trouble
fast!!!

Pepper spray is outlawed too???

It is in the same class as a gun.

Quoted message said:

Yeesh!

I hope they supply the people with personal bodyguards at government
expense!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The one I have has a belt clip. Clips nicely to the inside of my bra.

Just don't bring it to Canada. IIRC it is a max 5 years in jail
although you'd probably get bail and later a minor suspended
sentence. It might depend on how many times you assured the customs
officer that you did not have it 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would never try to get it thru an airport but I only fly if I HAVE to.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The pepper spray (small one) is on a keychain and there is a larger one
in my purse.

Quoted message said:

Be grateful you are in a sensible country!

Indeed.
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

John Kane said:

Quoted message said:

People tend to point to certain ethnic minorities and recent immigrant
groups to account for their high crime rates. Switzerland has very tight
immigration laws. It just doesn't let them into the country.

Always a possiblity but IIRC historically NO. I was simply referring
to Switzerland since Omelet had mentioned it. You may notice despite
the occasional ruckus in T.O, we are not shooting people at anywhere
near the US rate. And look at France, UK , Japan, etc. Gun crimes are
very low in all the other OECD countries compared with the USA.

And look who is doing all the shooting in Toronto.

Quoted message said:

However, IMO, this is likely not only due to a lot of uncontrolled
guns but to a cultural difference. Americans "believe" in guns. Mind
you as one of my favourite SF writers says( badly paraphrased), " It
is hard to do a drive-by with a battle axe".

Then there is the Amish drive by

Clip clop clip clop clip clop

BANG BANG BANG

Clip clop clip clop clip clop

Omelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Giusi said:

Omelet wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have to travel and shop alone the majority of the time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One more good reason to simply travel armed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If this girl had been, maybe she'd still be alive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've noted that most are too cowardly to address that issue.

Quoted message said:

I am not. I do not want to live in Dodge City. Even Dodge Citians got
over that.

If there are more armed citizens, crime rates drop.
Stats have proven that.

Well no, Stats have not. I have read those studies where the stats
come from and I have enough stats and methodology knowledge to
critique them They don't really show that "If there are more armed
citizens, crime rates drop".

At best IIRC you can say that crime rates don't increase. However
there are 2 or 3 fairly good studies ( not definitive by any means but
very suggestive) that says possesion of a gun (handgun?) in a
household is more likely to lead to a gun homicide.[1]

Things get rapidlly murkier after this. 🙂

1. My favourite story is about the church minister who bought a
handgun mainly as a statement supporting the 2nd US constituational
amendment and shot himself to death while demonstrating gun safety.

Quoted message said:

The police are always 5 to 15 minutes away for most of us.
A lot can happen in that short period of time.

Where was this poor girls protection?
Why did she die?

Quoted message said:

I believe that the effort ought to be to make the streets safe for
ordinary people, not turn every ordinary person into Dirty Harry. It can
be done, because most of the world is safer than the US. You'd have to
ask yourself why.

Since when?

You have to make the criminals afraid to attack you.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

Pete C. said:

Giusi said:

Omelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Giusi <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Omelet wrote:
>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>> Giusi <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> I believe that the effort ought to be to make the streets safe for
>>> ordinary people, not turn every ordinary person into Dirty Harry. It can
>>> be done, because most of the world is safer than the US. You'd have to
>>> ask yourself why.
>> Since when?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> You have to make the criminals afraid to attack you.
> You have to make fewer criminal and violent people.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All it takes is one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are no countries that are Utopia.

Quoted message said:

That is begging the entire subject, let alone the question. No, no
place is Utopia. I did not say it was. But the violent crime rate in
the US is a much higher percentage than most countries. Countries with
wars and tribal fights aside, I believe the US is pretty much tops.
Someone published the statistics a while back with a link and I looked
at the figures many different ways and violent crime is just a scourge
in the US. That's what you need to figure out. Babies are being born
innocent and growing up to be monsters at a rate that outdoes other
countries by a great deal. Arming every citizen won't solve a thing.

Quoted message said:

--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

Arming citizens aids in removing the criminals from the gene pool and
preventing repeat offenses.

Unless of course the criminals shoot first and more accurately. Read
the Marquis de Sade on coach hold-ups.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Omelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Giusi said:

That is begging the entire subject, let alone the question. No, no
place is Utopia. I did not say it was. But the violent crime rate in
the US is a much higher percentage than most countries. Countries with
wars and tribal fights aside, I believe the US is pretty much tops.

You just contradicted yourself.

If the people in Darfur had been armed, they would not be having the
humanitarian crisis that exists there at the moment.
--

They are armed! Just not as well as the Sudan gov't.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

John Kane said:

Pete C. said:

Dave Smith said:

John Kane wrote:
>.

Quoted message said:

> Gun crimes, and I suspect defensive actions with guns are very low in
> Switzerland, quite probably because every adult male is fairly well
> trained in the use and dangers of guns [1]. IIRC even suicides by gun
> are suprising low compared to other OECD countries. It appears that
> guns are just a tool that one keeps in the closet until the invasion
> happens, not something one carries around daily.

Quoted message said:

People tend to point to certain ethnic minorities and recent immigrant
groups to account for their high crime rates. Switzerland has very tight
immigration laws. It just doesn't let them into the country.

Quite true. It's of course racist and not politically correct to point
that out, but the statistics do show the distribution of crime is not
exactly even.

And just where is here? And could you supply a link to the stats?
When I worked in a jail most of my inmate staff were native-born
Canadians. A lot of roofers for some reason.

Quoted message said:

Then there is of course the question of whether it's who
you let in, or how "disadvantaged" they end up when they get here.

Yes, I am sure the Governor General of Canada and the previous GG
would agree totally. 🙂

Quoted message said:

If if points out one thing, and something they are starting to realize in
Europe finally, it's that you can't just let them in and then ignore
them, you have to follow up to see that they are able to assimilate
properly.

We're working on it. Come to think of it, Sir John A seems to have
assimilated fairly well ( for a Scottish Tory that is).

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

"Here" is the USA, you know, the country that invented the Internet and
most everything else.

John Kane said:

Quoted message said:

Pepper spray is outlawed too???

It is in the same class as a gun.

Not exactly John. There are different classifications of firearms in
Canada. There are non-restricted firearms, restricted firearms and
prohibited weapons. The latter include things like switch blades,
butterfly knives, nunchaku and other martial arts weapons, spiked
wristbands, blow guns, morning stars and brass knuckles and pepper spray.
You can legally own firearms, but only police, conservation officers, bylaw
officers, animal control officers and Special Constables can legally carry
pepper spray for use on humans. You can carry dog or bear spray, but if
you use it on a person you are likely to be charged.

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Kane said:

Quoted message said:

Pepper spray is outlawed too???

It is in the same class as a gun.

That's insane.
Pepper spray is not deadly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yeesh!

I hope they supply the people with personal bodyguards at government
expense!

Quoted message said:

> The one I have has a belt clip. Clips nicely to the inside of my bra.

Just don't bring it to Canada. IIRC it is a max 5 years in jail
although you'd probably get bail and later a minor suspended
sentence. It might depend on how many times you assured the customs
officer that you did not have it 🙂

It's only a utility knife with a 2 3/4" blade.
Are you saying pocketknives are outlawed?
How do you open boxes?

That is mostly what mine is used for. Envelopes too.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Kane said:

1. My favourite story is about the church minister who bought a
handgun mainly as a statement supporting the 2nd US constituational
amendment and shot himself to death while demonstrating gun safety.

The gun was not responsible.
It's only a tool.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Kane said:

Omelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Giusi said:

That is begging the entire subject, let alone the question. No, no
place is Utopia. I did not say it was. But the violent crime rate in
the US is a much higher percentage than most countries. Countries with
wars and tribal fights aside, I believe the US is pretty much tops.

You just contradicted yourself.

If the people in Darfur had been armed, they would not be having the
humanitarian crisis that exists there at the moment.
--

They are armed! Just not as well as the Sudan gov't.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

I've not read any stories of those poor people fighting back.

They run and evacuate.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Smith said:

John Kane said:

Quoted message said:

Pepper spray is outlawed too???

It is in the same class as a gun.

Not exactly John. There are different classifications of firearms in
Canada. There are non-restricted firearms, restricted firearms and
prohibited weapons. The latter include things like switch blades,
butterfly knives, nunchaku and other martial arts weapons, spiked
wristbands, blow guns, morning stars and brass knuckles and pepper spray.
You can legally own firearms, but only police, conservation officers, bylaw
officers, animal control officers and Special Constables can legally carry
pepper spray for use on humans. You can carry dog or bear spray, but if
you use it on a person you are likely to be charged.

Quoted message said:

I've been told that pepper spray is VERY effective on dogs. ;-)
I carry it on walks. There are many pits and rotties here in Texas.

It's a redneck thing.

I will use pepper spray before using a firearm. I'm not eager to kill a
dog, or a human...
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
John Kane <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the people in Darfur had been armed, they would not be having the
humanitarian crisis that exists there at the moment.
--

They are armed! Just not as well as the Sudan gov't.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

I've not read any stories of those poor people fighting back.

They run and evacuate.

Sorry, but you are so prejudiced that you won't even look at enough
sources to know the truth. I'm happy to say that I live where people
would not even consider living with a gun strapped to themselves. I'm
sorry to say that there are whole populations where getting water to
keep your babies alive is a whole lot more serious a problem than gun
training.

You are a bit apt to think the world is all like your world. But having
lived in your world for many decades, I still don't want to live where
arming myself is more important than whether my shoes are cute.

I know how to shoot, I once owned guns, I never wanted to kill anything
with a gun. I don't miss them one single bit. I go to the ATM at
midnight and then walk through town to the parking lot outside the
walls, and although there are a few thieves around, there are also
decent citizens who see me as I pass and would help me if I needed help.
They are not in danger of being shot for it, because almost no one has
a gun, including most police.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

Giusi said:

You are a bit apt to think the world is all like your world. But having
lived in your world for many decades, I still don't want to live where
arming myself is more important than whether my shoes are cute.

I know how to shoot, I once owned guns, I never wanted to kill anything
with a gun. I don't miss them one single bit. I go to the ATM at
midnight and then walk through town to the parking lot outside the
walls, and although there are a few thieves around, there are also
decent citizens who see me as I pass and would help me if I needed help.
They are not in danger of being shot for it, because almost no one has
a gun, including most police.

I have to live in the world where I live.

Sometimes the sacrifices are worth the benefits.

I'm more than willing to agree to disagree. ;-)

Just like personal tastes in food.

I still hate Arugula! <G>
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Kane said:

1. My favourite story is about the church minister who bought a
handgun mainly as a statement supporting the 2nd US constituational
amendment and shot himself to death while demonstrating gun safety.

The gun was not responsible.
It's only a tool.

Precisely. Before you can purchase a handgun here you must obtain your
blue card. To obtain the card you must pass a test on handgun safety,
it's really all common sense questions but you'd be surprise how many
people fail the test.

But one of the things you learn is to NEVER assume that a weapon isn't
loaded, and to never point the business end at someone unless you mean
to use it.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Smith said:

John Kane said:

> Pepper spray is outlawed too???

It is in the same class as a gun.

Not exactly John. There are different classifications of firearms in
Canada. There are non-restricted firearms, restricted firearms and
prohibited weapons. The latter include things like switch blades,
butterfly knives, nunchaku and other martial arts weapons, spiked
wristbands, blow guns, morning stars and brass knuckles and pepper spray.
You can legally own firearms, but only police, conservation officers, bylaw
officers, animal control officers and Special Constables can legally carry
pepper spray for use on humans. You can carry dog or bear spray, but if
you use it on a person you are likely to be charged.

Quoted message said:

I've been told that pepper spray is VERY effective on dogs. ;-)
I carry it on walks. There are many pits and rotties here in Texas.

It's a redneck thing.

I will use pepper spray before using a firearm. I'm not eager to kill a
dog, or a human...

Speaking of which, email me for a joost invite. Then once you install it
go to the Brain Dead TV channel and view Cops Uncut Ep. 1 - go to the
last third or so.

Dave Smith <[email hidden]> scripsit in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

You can legally own firearms, but only police, conservation
officers, bylaw officers, animal control officers and Special
Constables can legally carry pepper spray for use on humans.

Hughie knows all about it, and Hughie was going to take the fall.

--

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's
oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the
search for a superior moral justification for
selfishness." -- John Kenneth Galbraith

Omelet <[email hidden]> scripsit in news:omp_omelet-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I have to live in the world where I live.

You could try to not pass off *your* choices as de rigueur and anyone
else's as foolisdh for not abiding by *your* choices. You can also
choose to live elsewhere if you find the situation difficult. Or are
you a prisoner in your own country?

--

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's
oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the
search for a superior moral justification for
selfishness." -- John Kenneth Galbraith

"Michel Boucher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Omelet <[email hidden]> scripsit in news:omp_omelet-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I have to live in the world where I live.

You could try to not pass off *your* choices as de rigueur and anyone
else's as foolisdh for not abiding by *your* choices. You can also
choose to live elsewhere if you find the situation difficult. Or are
you a prisoner in your own country?

I don't see Omelet as being prescriptive! She was just saying that she acts
in a way compatible for the world in which she lives... unless I am missing
something?