Re: stop all bike paths etc please!!

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> >
> >> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>
> >>> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>> news:[email protected]...
> >>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>> Wrong (and even the most fundamentalist/extreme Muslims aren't
> >>>> doing that either - its for other reasons that a few small groups
> >>>> are killing people).
> >>> They are committing acts of terror. Do you even know what it is to
> >>> kill innocents to further a political agenda?
> >
> > George W. Bush, **** Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and Richard Perl sure do.
> > They've killed at least 75,000 innocent Iraqi civilians....
>
> That number has to be about an order of magnitude too low. It should
> also be mentioned that about 4 million Iraqi refugees have been created
> by the Cheney/Bush led conquest of Iraq - equivalent to creating more
> than 35 million refugees in the US.

www.iraqbodycount.org discusses their methodology, which is to count
deaths they believe can be objectively confirmed. President Bush has,
on occasion, cited the numbers on the web site without specifically
referencing it.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong (and even the most fundamentalist/extreme Muslims aren't
>>>>>> doing that either - its for other reasons that a few small groups
>>>>>> are killing people).
>>>>> They are committing acts of terror. Do you even know what it is to
>>>>> kill innocents to further a political agenda?
>>> George W. Bush, **** Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and Richard Perl sure do.
>>> They've killed at least 75,000 innocent Iraqi civilians....
>> That number has to be about an order of magnitude too low. It should
>> also be mentioned that about 4 million Iraqi refugees have been created
>> by the Cheney/Bush led conquest of Iraq - equivalent to creating more
>> than 35 million refugees in the US.
>
> www.iraqbodycount.org discusses their methodology, which is to count
> deaths they believe can be objectively confirmed. President Bush has,
> on occasion, cited the numbers on the web site without specifically
> referencing it.

The methodology used in the study published by the Lancet is well
accepted, and by that standard, one million excess deaths in Iraq would
not be an unreasonable estimate.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

 

[Mike Latondresse]

[email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Prisoner at War wrote:
>> > On Dec 3, 9:42 am, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >> Like most whackos, Ed prefers to live in a world of his own.
>> > He's probably some old dude in a nursing home. Apparently usenet is
>> > mostly full of old folks, middle-age and up!...
>>
>> Mr. Ed the Grate is 71 years old.
>
> And he probably sounds like Mr. Ed the Horse.
>
Or smells like him.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Mike Latondresse wrote:
> [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> Prisoner at War wrote:
>>>> On Dec 3, 9:42 am, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Like most whackos, Ed prefers to live in a world of his own.
>>>> He's probably some old dude in a nursing home. Apparently usenet is
>>>> mostly full of old folks, middle-age and up!...
>>> Mr. Ed the Grate is 71 years old.
>> And he probably sounds like Mr. Ed the Horse.
>>
> Or smells like him.
>
Mr. Ed the Grate has bragged in past postings of his lack of personal
hygiene. See
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent/msg/5b63c9780426b8b1?dmode=source>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

 

[Bill Z.]

Tim McNamara <[email protected]> writes:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > George W. Bush, **** Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and Richard Perl sure do.
> > > They've killed at least 75,000 innocent Iraqi civilians....
> >
> > That number has to be about an order of magnitude too low. It should
> > also be mentioned that about 4 million Iraqi refugees have been created
> > by the Cheney/Bush led conquest of Iraq - equivalent to creating more
> > than 35 million refugees in the US.
>
> www.iraqbodycount.org discusses their methodology, which is to count
> deaths they believe can be objectively confirmed. President Bush has,
> on occasion, cited the numbers on the web site without specifically
> referencing it.

That web site claims to measure Iraqi deaths due to violence, not
deaths due to inadequate health care, bad water, etc., all due to the
loss of infrastructure that occurs during a war.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Z.]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> In article <[email protected]>,
> >>> [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:[email protected]...
> >>>>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wrong (and even the most fundamentalist/extreme Muslims aren't
> >>>>>> doing that either - its for other reasons that a few small
> >>>>>> groups are killing people).
> >>>>> They are committing acts of terror. Do you even know what it is
> >>>>> to kill innocents to further a political agenda?
> >>> George W. Bush, **** Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and Richard Perl sure
> >>> do. They've killed at least 75,000 innocent Iraqi civilians....
> >> That number has to be about an order of magnitude too low. It
> >> should also be mentioned that about 4 million Iraqi refugees have
> >> been created by the Cheney/Bush led conquest of Iraq - equivalent
> >> to creating more than 35 million refugees in the US.
> > www.iraqbodycount.org discusses their methodology, which is to count
> > deaths they believe can be objectively confirmed. President Bush
> > has, on occasion, cited the numbers on the web site without
> > specifically referencing it.
>
> The methodology used in the study published by the Lancet is well
> accepted, and by that standard, one million excess deaths in Iraq
> would not be an unreasonable estimate.

The difference (in part) is that Lancet measured all deaths that were
caused by the war and aftermath, whereas the web site mentioned in the
post you replied to measured only the deaths caused directly by
violence.

BTW, the number of U.S. deaths is understated too - they consider a
soldier to have died in Iraq if he expires in Iraq. Medical care
has gotten good enough that they can keep a many fatally injured
soldiers alive long enough to expire after being taken outside of
Iraq for treatment. If one dies on the plane after it has left
Iraqi airspace, that one is not counted as having died in Iraq.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Tom Sherman]

Bill Zaumen wrote:
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>> [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wrong (and even the most fundamentalist/extreme Muslims aren't
>>>>>>>> doing that either - its for other reasons that a few small
>>>>>>>> groups are killing people).
>>>>>>> They are committing acts of terror. Do you even know what it is
>>>>>>> to kill innocents to further a political agenda?
>>>>> George W. Bush, **** Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and Richard Perl sure
>>>>> do. They've killed at least 75,000 innocent Iraqi civilians....
>>>> That number has to be about an order of magnitude too low. It
>>>> should also be mentioned that about 4 million Iraqi refugees have
>>>> been created by the Cheney/Bush led conquest of Iraq - equivalent
>>>> to creating more than 35 million refugees in the US.
>>> www.iraqbodycount.org discusses their methodology, which is to count
>>> deaths they believe can be objectively confirmed. President Bush
>>> has, on occasion, cited the numbers on the web site without
>>> specifically referencing it.
>> The methodology used in the study published by the Lancet is well
>> accepted, and by that standard, one million excess deaths in Iraq
>> would not be an unreasonable estimate.
>
> The difference (in part) is that Lancet measured all deaths that were
> caused by the war and aftermath, whereas the web site mentioned in the
> post you replied to measured only the deaths caused directly by
> violence.
>
> BTW, the number of U.S. deaths is understated too - they consider a
> soldier to have died in Iraq if he expires in Iraq. Medical care
> has gotten good enough that they can keep a many fatally injured
> soldiers alive long enough to expire after being taken outside of
> Iraq for treatment. If one dies on the plane after it has left
> Iraqi airspace, that one is not counted as having died in Iraq.
>
Not to mention the deaths of mercenaries. When the mercenaries are
counted, the size of the Iraq occupation force increases to
approximately three hundred thousand.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

 

[Tom Sherman]

Bill Zaumen wrote:
> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> George W. Bush, **** Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and Richard Perl sure do.
>>>> They've killed at least 75,000 innocent Iraqi civilians....
>>> That number has to be about an order of magnitude too low. It should
>>> also be mentioned that about 4 million Iraqi refugees have been created
>>> by the Cheney/Bush led conquest of Iraq - equivalent to creating more
>>> than 35 million refugees in the US.
>> www.iraqbodycount.org discusses their methodology, which is to count
>> deaths they believe can be objectively confirmed. President Bush has,
>> on occasion, cited the numbers on the web site without specifically
>> referencing it.
>
> That web site claims to measure Iraqi deaths due to violence, not
> deaths due to inadequate health care, bad water, etc., all due to the
> loss of infrastructure that occurs during a war.
>
To be fair, Clinton killed hundred of thousands of innocent Iraqis this
way, since he insisted on maintaining sanctions that did not allow Iraq
to rebuild critical infrastructure, such as water and wastewater
treatment facilities. Of course, these facilities were deliberately (the
Pentagon admits to it) and illegally targeted by the US under Bush I.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

 

[Bill Z.]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >
> > BTW, the number of U.S. deaths is understated too - they consider a
> > soldier to have died in Iraq if he expires in Iraq. Medical care
> > has gotten good enough that they can keep a many fatally injured
> > soldiers alive long enough to expire after being taken outside of
> > Iraq for treatment. If one dies on the plane after it has left
> > Iraqi airspace, that one is not counted as having died in Iraq.
>
> American casualties in Iraq have been minimal. Compared to most preceding
> wars that the US has ever engaged in the casualties are hardly worth
> mentioning. Both WWI and WWII had single battles which resulted in many
> times more casualties.

The issue is not the absolute numbers but that the government is
misleading the American public about what is actually going on.


--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Z.]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > No, Dolan, you are truly an idiot. I'm going to ignore the rest of
> > your rants that my newsreader just found, as you clearly just want
> > attention.
>
> Yeah, but I am a smart idiot and you are a dumb idiot. That is the
> difference!

No Dolan, you are a mindless idiot.

<rest of banter from this troll in other posts ignored>

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Sornson]

Bill Z. wrote:

> <rest of banter from this troll in other posts ignored>

What a vital contribution THAT was! LOL

Enough, Zaumie -- *PLONK*

BS (less in store)

 

[Bill Z.]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >> American casualties in Iraq have been minimal. Compared to most preceding
> >> wars that the US has ever engaged in the casualties are hardly worth
> >> mentioning. Both WWI and WWII had single battles which resulted in many
> >> times more casualties.
>
> [At this point Bill Z should have indicated that he had snipped the rest of
> my message.]

Nonsense - what followed was a mindless rant that had nothing at all
to do with the part I quoted.

> > The issue is not the absolute numbers but that the government is
> > misleading the American public about what is actually going on.
>
> The government is under no obligation to tell you what you want to hear. The
> information is all there for anyone to look it up. Most of us don't much
> care about the details in any event. All we want is the big picture and that
> is what our government generously gives us.

As citizens who pay for this government, we have every right to insist
that it will tell us the truth.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Z.]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >> >> American casualties in Iraq have been minimal. Compared to most
> >> >> preceding
> >> >> wars that the US has ever engaged in the casualties are hardly worth
> >> >> mentioning. Both WWI and WWII had single battles which resulted in
> >> >> many
> >> >> times more casualties.
> >>
> >> [At this point Bill Z should have indicated that he had snipped the rest
> >> of
> >> my message.]
> >
> > Nonsense - what followed was a mindless rant that had nothing at all
> > to do with the part I quoted.
>
> That doesn't matter, you need to indicate that you have snipped. Follow my
> example if you do not know how to do it.

Dolan, you are an idiot. Read the usenet guidelines.

> > As citizens who pay for this government, we have every right to insist
> > that it will tell us the truth.
>
> The truth is there for the getting, but the government need not make it easy
> for you. Don't be so lazy, do your own research.

Wrong. When they put out numbers, I shouldn't have to cross check them
or read the fine print.


--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On 04 Dec 2007 08:29:39 -0800, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote:

>"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
>> >
>> >> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> news:[email protected]...
>> >> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:[email protected]...
>> >> >> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You need to learn something about the real world.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I get all my learning from Fox News these days. It is the only cable
>> >> >> news
>> >> >> channel that is balanced and fair.
>> >> >
>> >> > Dolan is an idiot.
>> >>
>> >> Fox News is on 24 hours a day and has some of the best commentators in
>> >> the
>> >> business (the very best by the way is Bill O'Reilly, another gentleman of
>> >> Irish extraction like myself - and the only Bill I have ever heard of who
>> >> is
>> >> not an idiot).
>> >
>> > Dolan, you are an idiot.
>>
>> Yeah, but we both know that is not true, don't we.
>
>No, Dolan, you are truly an idiot.

No, but YOU are an incorrigible LIAR.

I'm going to ignore the rest of
>your rants that my newsreader just found, as you clearly just want
>attention.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Bill Z.]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >> > Nonsense - what followed was a mindless rant that had nothing at all
> >> > to do with the part I quoted.
> >>
> >> That doesn't matter, you need to indicate that you have
> >> snipped. Follow my example if you do not know how to do it.
> >
> > Dolan, you are an idiot. Read the usenet guidelines.
>
> This has nothing to do with Usenet and everything to do with English
> Composition 101. I don't think you understand what a paragraph is about as
> opposed to a sentence or a phrase. Where the hell did you get your
> education? Your mind is untrained. Even Bill S (the kill-filer) noticed that
> much about you!

F___ off. The paragraph I snipped was simply one of your mindless, more or
less insulting, rants. It had nothing to do with anything.

> > Wrong. When they put out numbers, I shouldn't have to cross check them
> > or read the fine print.
>
> Oh yes you should! Citizenship has its requirements just like anything else.

Wrong - as a citizen, I have every right to demand that of my
government. BTW, a smart manager would fire employees who lie about
the facts - lying is counterproductive as bad decisions are made as a
result. I'll "fire" politicians who lie about the facts too (facts
regarding government business, not their sex lives), to the extent of
a single vote.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Z.]

Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> writes:

> On 04 Dec 2007 08:36:13 -0800, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
> wrote:
> >
> >If you think Dolan is "brilliant", you are as dumb as he is.
>
> At least he can spell his own name. That alone puts him head and
> shoulders above you.

Liar.


--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Z.]

Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> writes:

> On 04 Dec 2007 08:29:39 -0800, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
> wrote:
>
> >> > Dolan, you are an idiot.
> >>
> >> Yeah, but we both know that is not true, don't we.
> >
> >No, Dolan, you are truly an idiot.
>
> No, but YOU are an incorrigible LIAR.

Projection. But I guess you need to kiss up to Dolan since everyone
else thinks you are a worthless twit.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Sornson]

'The insightful Flemish journalist Paul Belien observed last year, when
Muslims were rioting over the Pope's quoting the 600-year-old words of an
obscure emperor: "If a person is incapable of tolerating criticism,
including mild criticism, and especially if he perceives criticism where
there is none, this is often a sign of this person's deep psychological
insecurity. Rude aggression and wild rage, too, are usually not the normal
behaviour of a self-confident person, but rather of someone who knows that
he will lose an argument unless he can bully others into silence..It looks
as if Muslims cannot cope with an open society and the modern globalized
world."'

From "The Brittle Culture of Islam" by Robert Spencer
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23746

 

[Bill Z.]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >
> > F___ off. The paragraph I snipped was simply one of your
> > mindless, more or less insulting, rants. It had nothing to do
> > with anything.
>
> You snip because you are a coward and are afraid of words.

No, moron, I snipped it because you were ranting like you usually
do and I have better things to do than to babysit an idiot.

<rest of this moron's rants that are queued up ignored>

 

[Bill Z.]

"Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> writes:

> 'The insightful Flemish journalist Paul Belien observed last year, when
> Muslims were rioting over the Pope's quoting the 600-year-old words of an
> obscure emperor <snip>

Yawn.

What makes you or Belien think that the people rioting had any clue
as to what the Pope actually said (or what the school teacher in the
Sudan actually did)? Very poor, uneducated people can be easily
manipulated by some random guy with a megaphone because (a) they can't
read, (b) they can't afford a TV, (c) they can't afford a radio, and
(d) they may not even have used a telephone once in their lives.
When all the information they get about what happens elsewhere is from
some religious extremist, what do you think will happen? It's simply
idiotic to blame Muslims in general just because some Muslims, ones
living in extreme poverty and with next to no education, can be easily
manipulated.

Perhaps you'd also blame Americans, however, since a lot of people
were stupid enough to believe the WMD hype that came out of the Bush
administration, and with our resources, we did a lot more damage than
some rag-tag mob in the third world ever could.

Finally, I've met a number of Muslims, both in the U.S. and in an
Islamic country, and the ones I've met are not extremists, are not
unreasonable, and are not trying to force their religion down anyone's
throat. That's probably typical - the ones you read about in the news
are the small number of people who are doing something very unusual.
After all, that is what news is. "Man bites dog" is news; "dog bites
man" generally isn't (unless there is a very serious injury or death).

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB