Re: I was misled

Quoted message said:

...I don't know what is being said in Asia.

For the Middle East, see <http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage>.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The ugly brutality of our
administration is a huge blot on the nation. If you follow foreign
news you could see haw bad we look in the eyes of the world. BBC news
is mild compared to other continental news sources. I don't know
what is being said in Asia.

Here in mild-mannered conservative Japan, the press is generally
pretty tame, but nevertheless I hear that Bush's approval rating
amongst the public has soared to the heady heights of 7%. That is not
a typo. Bush supporters will no doubt argue that it is irrelevant what
the rest of the world thinks, and it is their right to elect a
dangerous moron if they choose, but they should at least be aware that
this really is how the rest of the world views him (and by extension,
those who elect him).

James

James Annan said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The ugly brutality of our
administration is a huge blot on the nation. If you follow foreign
news you could see haw bad we look in the eyes of the world. BBC news
is mild compared to other continental news sources. I don't know
what is being said in Asia.

Here in mild-mannered conservative Japan, the press is generally
pretty tame, but nevertheless I hear that Bush's approval rating
amongst the public has soared to the heady heights of 7%. That is not
a typo. Bush supporters will no doubt argue that it is irrelevant what
the rest of the world thinks, and it is their right to elect a
dangerous moron if they choose, but they should at least be aware that
this really is how the rest of the world views him (and by extension,
those who elect him).

My whole take on this thread is that our administration is pretty F'IN
scary if it's got Jobst making offtopic posts.

Greg
--
Destroy your safe and happy lives
Before it is too late
The battles we fought were long and hard
Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll

Greg T? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The ugly brutality of our administration is a huge blot on the
nation. If you follow foreign news you could see haw bad we look
in the eyes of the world. BBC news is mild compared to other
continental news sources. I don't know what is being said in
Asia.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here in mild-mannered conservative Japan, the press is generally
pretty tame, but nevertheless I hear that Bush's approval rating
amongst the public has soared to the heady heights of 7%. That is
not a typo. Bush supporters will no doubt argue that it is
irrelevant what the rest of the world thinks, and it is their right
to elect a dangerous moron if they choose, but they should at least
be aware that this really is how the rest of the world views him
(and by extension, those who elect him).

Quoted message said:

My whole take on this thread is that our administration is pretty
F'IN scary if it's got Jobst making off topic posts.

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to
our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our
democratic government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in
the shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is
sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative
government.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
..

Quoted message said:

This like other topics we might choose not to read is each reader's
prerogative to skip or not. Off topic trouble arises when within a
thread someone takes advantage of folks who are following the subject
by introducing another agenda such as helmets under tire problems.
That is not what is happening here.

Please feel free to post your ride-logs (over 30 paragraphs and 3,000 words
to surmount) to the political newsgroup of your choosing.

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to
our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our
democratic government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in
the shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is
sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative
government.

I have to agree. I think we are very much at a major fork in the road in the
post cold war era, actions taken today will set the climate for decades to
come, just as the post WWII policy did. I think the administration is blowing
it, so do many (better qualified) others:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46538-2004Jun16.html

Peter Cole said:

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to
our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our
democratic government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in
the shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is
sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative
government.

I have to agree. I think we are very much at a major fork in the road in the
post cold war era, actions taken today will set the climate for decades to
come, just as the post WWII policy did. I think the administration is blowing
it, so do many (better qualified) others:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46538-2004Jun16.html

I agree as well. I'll contribute the following which is the full text of
a speech by former Vice President Al Gore to the American Constitution
Society at Georgetown University on June 24.

http://alternet.org/election04/19047/

Bret

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to our

well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our democratic
government and our nation's standing in world affairs.

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Sorry, Jobst. I have to disagree.

Although I am a great admirer of your bicycling work (and you have worked
with other members of my family as well -- "you da man" as they say. My
father's custom Paramount was patterned after your Cinelli), this is
off-topic.

The topic is not "misled". "I was misled" is the thread. The topic is
"rec.bicycles.misc" (or "rec.bicycles.tech" which is cross-posted).

The issue of GW policies is of passionate interest -- but not in a bicycling
forum. In the bicycling forum, it becomes garden-variety trolling or SPAM.

Quoted message said:

Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in the

shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is sinking to
dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative government.

This is your tacit admission of inappropriateness to this forum. You are
claiming that "greater good" supercedes the organized interest in bicycling
topics.
Please move to "rec.politics" or whatever forum exists for political
discussion.

- Skip La Fetra
(the reply-to account at hotmail is active but refuses mail. Post here or
add my initials ('fel'😉 to the account name and it will get to me.)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to our

well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our democratic
government and our nation's standing in world affairs.

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Sorry, Jobst. I have to disagree.

Although I am a great admirer of your bicycling work (and you have worked
with other members of my family as well -- "you da man" as they say. My
father's custom Paramount was patterned after your Cinelli), this is
off-topic.

The topic is not "misled". "I was misled" is the thread. The topic is
"rec.bicycles.misc" (or "rec.bicycles.tech" which is cross-posted).

The issue of GW policies is of passionate interest -- but not in a bicycling
forum. In the bicycling forum, it becomes garden-variety trolling or SPAM.

Quoted message said:

Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in the

shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is sinking to
dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative government.

This is your tacit admission of inappropriateness to this forum. You are
claiming that "greater good" supercedes the organized interest in bicycling
topics.
Please move to "rec.politics" or whatever forum exists for political
discussion.

- Skip La Fetra
(the reply-to account at hotmail is active but refuses mail. Post here or
add my initials ('fel'😉 to the account name and it will get to me.)

Skip said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to our

well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our democratic
government and our nation's standing in world affairs.

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Sorry, Jobst. I have to disagree.

Although I am a great admirer of your bicycling work (and you have worked
with other members of my family as well -- "you da man" as they say. My
father's custom Paramount was patterned after your Cinelli), this is
off-topic.

The topic is not "misled". "I was misled" is the thread. The topic is
"rec.bicycles.misc" (or "rec.bicycles.tech" which is cross-posted).

The issue of GW policies is of passionate interest -- but not in a bicycling
forum. In the bicycling forum, it becomes garden-variety trolling or SPAM.

Quoted message said:

Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in the

shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is sinking to
dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative government.

This is your tacit admission of inappropriateness to this forum. You are
claiming that "greater good" supercedes the organized interest in bicycling
topics.
Please move to "rec.politics" or whatever forum exists for political
discussion.

- Skip La Fetra
(the reply-to account at hotmail is active but refuses mail. Post here or
add my initials ('fel'😉 to the account name and it will get to me.)

Dear Skip,

On the other hand, look at how excited and interested so
many people are.

We rarely get this kind of action about crucial topics like
tire pressure.

You were so fascinated, for example, that you seem to have
posted the same reply twice. And here I am, chattering back
at you.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Bret Wade said:

I agree as well. I'll contribute the following which is the full
text of a speech by former Vice President Al Gore to the American
Constitution Society at Georgetown University on June 24.

Well done. Such analysis points out- by sheer contrast- the dismal
failings of John Ashcroft's legal education, which seemed to forget to
teach him about the Bill of Rights, balance of powers and limits of
authority. And such analysis also points out the remarkable
contradictions in the current Republican world view: that the role of
government should be limited, and yet government should have nearly
unchecked powers to interfere in the lives of individuals and deny
them their Constitutional rights.

That *any* American, Democrat or Republican, can close their eyes or
otherwise fail to see the horrendous dangers posed to the future of
this nation by the Bush Administration and its cadre of whackos is
nothing short of frightening.

Bret Wade said:

I agree as well. I'll contribute the following which is the full text
of a speech by former Vice President Al Gore to the American
Constitution Society at Georgetown University on June 24.

http://alternet.org/election04/19047/

I saw a wonderful tape of Gore giving a speech advocating the overthrown of
Saddam, juxtaposed with his recent rants. Maybe someone should make a
"documentary" about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/809168.stm (too lazy to actually
find speech, but this references it or something similar).

Bill "hypocrisy abounds" S.

And once again:

http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1310344&l=42270

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Skip said:

The topic is not "misled". "I was misled" is the thread. The topic
is "rec.bicycles.misc" (or "rec.bicycles.tech" which is
cross-posted).

Well, to be persnickety, the topic is indeed "I was misled" which is
being discussed within two newsgroups within the rec.bicycles.*
hierarchy. A newsgroup is not a topic. Now, my newsreader lists a
"Subject:" line rather than a "Topic:" line, but the two are useable
synonymously.

Quoted message said:

Please move to "rec.politics" or whatever forum exists for political
discussion.

No one is forcing you or anyone else to read this thread. If you have
a half-competent newsreader, you can kill by thread and never see it
again. End of problem.

Quoted message said:

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent
to our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our
democratic government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in
the shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is
sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative
government.

Jobst, I was in the lead when this war went down in terms of condemning
the action. I really wonder why you didn't say something then.

It seems to me that you missed the anvil and are simply reacting to
a lot of this secondhand Michael Moore [censored].

Either you have the guts to stand up with the curtain and call the
foul or you are just posturing for history.

The fact is that we are killing terrorists, Iraq is a magnet for
them and it is a killing zone. Regardless of how you feel about the
war in general, the military forces of the United States are doing
their job with efficiency.

The same is true in Afghanistan.

This is not the optimal war, but it is the war we are in.

The war we have to deal with, that is.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

Eric S. Sande said:

...
The fact is that we are killing terrorists, Iraq is a magnet for
them and it is a killing zone. Regardless of how you feel about the
war in general, the military forces of the United States are doing
their job with efficiency.

When these types of people were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan,
they were called "freedom fighters" by the US President. Now that the
shoe is on the other foot, they are called "terrorists" by the US President.

Why not call them what they are - a foreign occupation resistance?
--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No one is forcing you or anyone else to read this thread. If you have
a half-competent newsreader, you can kill by thread and never see it
again. End of problem.

End of problem in the sense that SPAM filters are the cure to SPAM. I am
well aware of the technology and have not stepped in until now. When I go
to "rec.bicycles.misc" I expect to see bicycling topics.

Yes, it is easy to throw out the "junk mail". It is "junk mail"
nevertheless.

I do care about politics (and agree with many of Jobst's points). But in
this bicycling forum it remains inappropriate.

Quoted message said:

you can kill the thread

True, but (hypothetically) there are many possible off-topic threads. At
least 20 about politics, 100 on scams (get-rich-quick, Vi@gra, Nigerian
scam, etc), fraudulent (fix my credit NOW), etc. Killing threads one-by-one
causes people to abandon the notesgroup altogether.

Tim, do you wish to wade through a (hypothetical future situation where this
is out of control) 50-60 off-topic threads to see the ones you are
interested in? I think not. That is why newsgroups have top-level topics.
Otherwise there would be ONE top-level newsgroup and anybody could post
anything there.

If it is off-topic (e.g., not at all related to bicycling, DO NOT POST
HERE).

- Skip

Eric S. Sande said:

Quoted message said:

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent
to our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of
our democratic government and our nation's standing in world
affairs. Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses
significance in the shadow of the deep moral depression into which
our country is sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of
representative government.

Quoted message said:

Jobst, I was in the lead when this war went down in terms of
condemning the action. I really wonder why you didn't say something
then.

I don't understand what you mean by this. What was "in the lead"?

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that you missed the anvil and are simply reacting to
a lot of this secondhand Michael Moore [censored].

I don't understand how Michael Moore got into this. The thread is
about the daily lies from the Bush administration that are cited in
the URL I offered. Those opposed to reading them reach for all sorts
of distractions or reply with ad hominems as you do. If you want to
add something credible to this thread you might point out what is in
error in reporting these quotes from GWB on the link I provided.
Calling it "[censored]" doesn't enhance your position. You seem to take a
tip from Mr. Cheney and his rude manner of speech when he runs out of
answers to questions of policy.

Quoted message said:

Either you have the guts to stand up with the curtain and call the
foul or you are just posturing for history.

Please put this in plain English. Dodging behind sports and stage
metaphors obscures what this is about similarly to the newspeak of
the Bushmen.

Quoted message said:

The fact is that we are killing terrorists, Iraq is a magnet for
them and it is a killing zone. Regardless of how you feel about the
war in general, the military forces of the United States are doing
their job with efficiency.

How did they get there? Where were they before we destroyed law and
order in Iraq by dismantling the military and police and then sit idly
by as anarchy and looting carried on for long enough to destroy most
of Iraq's resources. Then we give Halliburton a no-bid contract to
rebuild that while allowing them an open deal to charge what they see
fit for services they render, if any.

Quoted message said:

The same is true in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is a disaster. Who do you think is in charge there? Just
because it isn't the Taliban, at least on the surface, it isn't what
the USA claimed would be there. It seems the clock has been set back
20 years ago.

Quoted message said:

This is not the optimal war, but it is the war we are in.

....but it is the war we initiated and for what purpose?

Quoted message said:

The war we have to deal with, that is.

"What do you mean WE, white man?" as Tonto so appropriately would have
said.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

How did they get there? Where were they before we destroyed law and
order in Iraq by dismantling the military and police and then sit idly
by as anarchy and looting carried on for long enough to destroy most
of Iraq's resources. Then we give Halliburton a no-bid contract to
rebuild that while allowing them an open deal to charge what they see
fit for services they render, if any.

"Destroyed law and order????" You gotta be kidding me! The people in Iraq
were practically living under martial law that been since around 1980. Law
and order was enforced through the use of political terror, akin to the
Stalin years in the USSR! The only allowable avenue for political activity
was for Sunni Muslims via the Ba'ath party. Kurds were systematically
relocated (another version of ethnic cleansing) and Shia Arabs were killed
at far greater rates than are happening now for less legitiamte reasons.
Looting and exploitation were the primary activities of the Ba'ath party
thugs -- but, I guess "the trains ran on time" so it was all okay. Good
Lord, the coutnry was run by a street gang for 30 years. For a group that
screams repression over imagined slights to our precious freedoms, much of
the anti-war crowd seems quite content to accept modern facism in other
areas. As far as the US destroying "most of Iraq's resources", that's just
outright hyperbole. And yes, Halliburton -- actually KBR, a subsidiary
company -- does provide a variety of services, which a quick google search
will confirm. I could also provide a few personal testimonials as well. Of
course acknowledging that would undercut your cute little quips.

Argue the war, argue the policy -- that's fine. But don't pretend that
things were swell and wonderful in Iraq before we came along. Maybe you
need to get your head out of the left wing rags you're reading (SJ Merc News
and SF Chronicle, IIRC) and get some unfettered facts about life in Iraq.
Perspective, Mr Brandt, perspective. Believe it or not it's not all car
bombs and prison torture over there. It's not Des Moine, and it's
dangerous, but people don't get killed there anymore for what they say and
think -- unless they're caught by the "inurgents", that is.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The same is true in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is a disaster. Who do you think is in charge there? Just
because it isn't the Taliban, at least on the surface, it isn't what
the USA claimed would be there. It seems the clock has been set back
20 years ago.

Perhaps you should read a little on the impact of the Taliban on the culture
and civic life in Afghanistan. You further display your ignorance with
comments like that. Stike to bicycle wheels. Of course you've emerged as
quite an effective troll as well.

Tom