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Re: FFS - front freewheel system

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01 / Original postRe: FFS - front freewheel systemmeb · 25 Jun 2004 02 / This pagePosts 1–10Page 1 of 1 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #10Benjamin Lewis · 28 Jun 2004

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Original section
Cycling Equipment
Published
25 June 2004
Last activity
28 June 2004
Original author
meb
Posts
10
Discussion status
Public discussion
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Topics
Single-speed and fixed-gearBottom bracketsCoaster brakesRear derailleursTaper and peaking

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  1. Original post
    meb
    Archived post
    #1
    Jeff Wills said:

    Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Also, where is the front freewheel exactly? Is the BB shell the
    standard size, or is there something special about it?

    It's attached to the bottom bracket spindle. This precluded use of a
    standard square taper BB for clearance reasons, so they use an early
    "Octalink" splined setup that turned out to be rather unsatisfactory.

    There was also a variant that used a one-piece crank, fitting into a
    standard American-type bottom bracket shell. I used these to make
    coastable kidback tandem cranks when my kids were little.


    To answer a question Sheldon missed: the BB shell on your Panasonic
    should be a standard 68mm width English thread unit. IIRC, once you get
    the arms off the spindle, the left cone unscrews from the spindle and
    the bearings fall on the floor. After removing the spindle to the right
    (and dropping more bearings), you'll see that the cups threaded in the
    frame have internal splines. I *think* the tool that fits these splines
    is the standard Shimano freewheel removal tool.
    A note: the rear cogset had a limited freewheel action built into it.
    If something jammed the chain, this would allow the rear wheel to
    continue to turn. It felt like a conventional freewheel with *really*
    tight bearings.
    Jeff

    Am I correct in assuming this limitted freewheel action would preclude
    the rear cogset from being used for a 5 speed fixie?

    Was this limitted freewheel action limitted enough to provide
    significant braking?

    Was there any weight difference on the FF rear 5 speed cogset from a 5
    speed freewheel or were they comparable?

    --

    Report
  2. Jeff Wills
    Archived post
    #2

    meb <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Jeff Wills wrote:


    <snipedy-doo-dah>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    A note: the rear cogset had a limited freewheel action built into it.
    If something jammed the chain, this would allow the rear wheel to
    continue to turn. It felt like a conventional freewheel with *really*
    tight bearings.
    Jeff

    Am I correct in assuming this limitted freewheel action would preclude
    the rear cogset from being used for a 5 speed fixie?

    Aside from the fact a "5-speed fixie" would make a hash of any
    conventional rear derailleur, yes. I think the purpose of the limited
    freewheel was to allow the rear wheel to keep turning if something (a
    pants cuff, for instance) caught in the the chain.

    Quoted message said:

    Was this limitted freewheel action limitted enough to provide
    significant braking?

    No.

    Quoted message said:

    Was there any weight difference on the FF rear 5 speed cogset from a 5
    speed freewheel or were they comparable?

    AFAIK, they were comparable. They were both solid chunks of steel.

    Jeff

    Report
  3. A Muzi
    Archived post
    #3
    Quoted message said:
    Jeff Wills said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Also, where is the front freewheel exactly? Is


    the BB shell the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > standard size, or is there something special


    about it?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    It's attached to the bottom bracket spindle. This precluded use of a
    standard square taper BB for clearance reasons, so they use an early
    "Octalink" splined setup that turned out to be rather unsatisfactory.


    -snip informative stuff-

    meb said:

    Am I correct in assuming this limitted freewheel action would preclude
    the rear cogset from being used for a 5 speed fixie?
    Was this limitted freewheel action limitted enough to provide
    significant braking?
    Was there any weight difference on the FF rear 5 speed cogset from a 5
    speed freewheel or were they comparable?

    The freewheel for an FFS/PPS has stiffer than normal
    resistance and will allow a chain to bunch up when coasting
    if you remove the FFS/PPS crank system.

    If you set it up as a single speed ( You misuse the term
    "fixie"😉 by shortening the chain to one of the five
    sprockets, yes, you can ride it effectively. Just don't
    include a derailleur or tensioner unless you have the
    special crank assembly.

    The crank spline is the "Selecta" pattern which started the
    early "standard" called "Octa-8" long before "octalink."

    No, you will get no noticeable braking effect. Keep your
    front caliper.

    On a hi-ten frame with steel hubs, cranks and rims the
    freewheel weight, while substantial, isn't all that
    significant.

    You may substitute a normal 5 or 6 freewheel ( or even a
    single for that matter) on the hub you have.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

    Report
  4. meb
    Archived post
    #4
    A Muzi said:
    Quoted message said:
    Jeff Wills said:

    > > Also, where is the front freewheel exactly? Is


    the BB shell the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > standard size, or is there something special


    about it?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...
    >
    > It's attached to the bottom bracket spindle. This precluded use
    > of a standard square taper BB for clearance reasons, so they use
    > an early "Octalink" splined setup that turned out to be rather
    > unsatisfactory.


    -snip informative stuff-

    meb said:

    Am I correct in assuming this limitted freewheel action would preclude
    the rear cogset from being used for a 5 speed fixie? Was this limitted
    freewheel action limitted enough to provide significant braking? Was
    there any weight difference on the FF rear 5 speed cogset from a 5
    speed freewheel or were they comparable?


    The freewheel for an FFS/PPS has stiffer than normal resistance and
    will allow a chain to bunch up when coasting if you remove the FFS/PPS
    crank system.
    If you set it up as a single speed ( You misuse the term "fixie"😉 by
    shortening the chain to one of the five sprockets, yes, you can ride it
    effectively. Just don't include a derailleur or tensioner unless you
    have the special crank assembly.
    The crank spline is the "Selecta" pattern which started the early
    "standard" called "Octa-8" long before "octalink."
    No, you will get no noticeable braking effect. Keep your front caliper.
    On a hi-ten frame with steel hubs, cranks and rims the freewheel weight,
    while substantial, isn't all that significant.
    You may substitute a normal 5 or 6 freewheel ( or even a single for that
    matter) on the hub you have.
    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

    Not sure why the term fixie is missused. Is it because a 5 speed non-
    freewheeling drive (times any crankset ring quantities) is not a “fixie”
    if gears can be changed?

    Regarding the tensioner issue raised: I was considering constructing a
    tensioner from the RANS double idler assembly
    http://www.shoprans.com/DriveLine.asp configured to move to take in
    tension from sprocket changes as well as allow the return chain side to
    switch to tension when the crank speeds slow below wheel speed. The
    double idlers are designed to work on the chain drive side as well as
    return side. Is there a nonobvious tensioner issue with “fixies”
    overlooked?

    This would be tried on a recumbent.

    --

    Report
  5. A Muzi
    Archived post
    #5

    -snip much-

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    meb said:

    Am I correct in assuming this limitted freewheel action would preclude
    the rear cogset from being used for a 5 speed fixie? Was this limitted
    freewheel action limitted enough to provide significant braking? Was
    there any weight difference on the FF rear 5 speed cogset from a 5
    speed freewheel or were they comparable?

    Quoted message said:
    A Muzi said:

    The freewheel for an FFS/PPS has stiffer than normal resistance and
    will allow a chain to bunch up when coasting if you remove the FFS/PPS
    crank system.
    If you set it up as a single speed ( You misuse the term "fixie"😉 by
    shortening the chain to one of the five sprockets, yes, you can ride it
    effectively. Just don't include a derailleur or tensioner unless you
    have the special crank assembly.


    -snip-

    meb said:

    Not sure why the term fixie is missused. Is it because a 5 speed non-
    freewheeling drive (times any crankset ring quantities) is not a “fixie”
    if gears can be changed?


    -snip-

    The FFS freewheels coasts. It's a freewheel, not fixed.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

    Report
  6. meb
    Archived post
    #6
    A Muzi said:

    -snip much-

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    meb wrote:
    > Am I correct in assuming this limitted freewheel action would
    > preclude the rear cogset from being used for a 5 speed fixie?
    > Was this limitted freewheel action limitted enough to provide
    > significant braking? Was there any weight difference on the FF
    > rear 5 speed cogset from a 5 speed freewheel or were they
    > comparable?


    A Muzi said:

    The freewheel for an FFS/PPS has stiffer than normal resistance
    and will allow a chain to bunch up when coasting if you remove the
    FFS/PPS crank system. If you set it up as a single speed ( You
    misuse the term "fixie"😉 by shortening the chain to one of the
    five sprockets, yes, you can ride it effectively. Just don't
    include a derailleur or tensioner unless you have the special
    crank assembly.


    -snip-

    meb said:

    Not sure why the term fixie is missused. Is it because a 5 speed non-
    freewheeling drive (times any crankset ring quantities) is not a
    “fixie” if gears can be changed?


    -snip-
    The FFS freewheels coasts. It's a freewheel, not fixed.
    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

    So a Schlumpf BB drive with fixie hub is semantically a fixie even
    though multi speed.

    --

    Report
  7. Adam Rush
    Archived post
    #7
    Quoted message said:

    So a Schlumpf BB drive with fixie hub is semantically a fixie even
    though multi speed.

    Schlumpf themselves say that is it right out. From their FAQ:

    "9. Can speed-drive be used with a fixed wheel cycle?

    "No. In reverse direction, there musn't be full load. It's o.k. for
    actuating a coaster brake, but not for high torques during long
    operation periods."

    If anybody could give me some technical reasons for this FAQ answer,
    other than that they are covering their asses, I would appereciate it.

    Report
  8. A Muzi
    Archived post
    #8
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    -snip much-

    Quoted message said:

    > meb wrote:
    > > Am I correct in assuming this limitted freewheel action would
    > > preclude the rear cogset from being used for a 5 speed fixie?

    note use of "freewheel" and "fixed gear" together.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    A Muzi wrote:
    > The freewheel for an FFS/PPS has stiffer than normal resistance
    > and will allow a chain to bunch up when coasting if you remove the
    > FFS/PPS crank system. If you set it up as a single speed ( You
    > misuse the term "fixie"😉 by shortening the chain to one of the
    > five sprockets, yes, you can ride it effectively. Just don't
    > include a derailleur or tensioner unless you have the special
    > crank assembly.


    -snip-

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    meb said:

    Not sure why the term fixie is missused. Is it because a 5 speed non-
    freewheeling drive (times any crankset ring quantities) is not a
    “fixie” if gears can be changed?


    -snip-

    Quoted message said:
    A Muzi said:

    The FFS freewheels coasts. It's a freewheel, not fixed.

    meb said:

    So a Schlumpf BB drive with fixie hub is semantically a fixie even
    though multi speed.

    Yes, I think we agree. "Fixed" implies no coasting.
    Freewheels, whether one or eight speeds, are not fixed.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

    Report
  9. David Damerell
    Archived post
    #9
    Adam Rush said:

    Schlumpf themselves say that is it right out. From their FAQ:
    "9. Can speed-drive be used with a fixed wheel cycle?
    "No. In reverse direction, there musn't be full load. It's o.k. for
    actuating a coaster brake, but not for high torques during long
    operation periods."
    If anybody could give me some technical reasons for this FAQ answer,
    other than that they are covering their asses, I would appereciate it.

    I'm not sure what you mean; manifestly it's harder to design a planetary
    gear that must withstand high torque in both directions.
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

    Report
  10. Benjamin Lewis
    Archived post
    #10
    David Damerell said:
    Adam Rush said:

    Schlumpf themselves say that is it right out. From their FAQ:
    "9. Can speed-drive be used with a fixed wheel cycle?
    "No. In reverse direction, there musn't be full load. It's o.k. for
    actuating a coaster brake, but not for high torques during long
    operation periods."
    If anybody could give me some technical reasons for this FAQ answer,
    other than that they are covering their asses, I would appereciate it.

    I'm not sure what you mean; manifestly it's harder to design a planetary
    gear that must withstand high torque in both directions.

    Maybe if you know the details of how they are designed. I never realized
    they were not symmetrical.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    Amoebit:
    Amoeba/rabbit cross; it can multiply and divide at the same time.

    Report

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