Raleigh 20 Insanity

Quoted message said:

full scale conversion of a Raleigh 20.

What all is involved in a "full scale conversion"?

PB

PBridge130 said:

Quoted message said:

full scale conversion of a Raleigh 20.

What all is involved in a "full scale conversion"?

PB

Scaling it up to 700C?

MJ

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What all is involved in a "full scale conversion"?

Quoted message said:

Scaling it up to 700C?

That's one of the wittier things I've read on this NG. :-)

PBridge130 said:

Quoted message said:

full scale conversion of a Raleigh 20.

What all is involved in a "full scale conversion"?

PB

We're basically swanking it up into a functional, unique loaner/casual
bike that can be ridden by people of various heights. Sturmey AW and
Sturmey Dynhoub, Rhynolites, short-ass 2.0/1.8 spokes, 165 mm 600 crank
and Salsa ring, Odyssey Pitbull rear brake and a canti in front, XC Pro
levers, Terry/Nitto stem and IRD Quadzilla seatpost to jack up the
positioning so tall people can ride it, handlebars undecided.

Quoted post said:

A friend and I are doing a full scale conversion of a Raleigh
20. For the bottom bracket, we're doing the Raleigh-threaded Phil
cups & UN72 thing. However, we've run into a problem: the cups can't
thread in far enough to engage the UN72 cartridge fully.

Maybe it'd work better with a Phil BB?

Have you considered "truncating the phil cups with extreme prejudice"
(e.g. a hacksaw). As long as you have a reasonable number of threads
(maybe 5 or 8 or something) still alive it would probably work.

Much gentler on your frameset.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

Have you considered "truncating the phil cups with extreme prejudice"
(e.g. a hacksaw). As long as you have a reasonable number of threads
(maybe 5 or 8 or something) still alive it would probably work.
Much gentler on your frameset.

If I understood his description, the threads of the OP's
Raleigh shell are occluded by the chainstays. They prevent
the cups from screwing in sufficiently deep to get any
pressure on the cartridge.

All 4 tubes frequently extend into the thread of nicer
quality handmade frames and are threaded at the edge. The
OP surmised that simply cutting away any excess and
rethreading would solve the problem and I agree.

Cut the excess material with a 1/4 rotary file to just below
the thread height. Clear the threads with a set of taps.
(Even an unpiloted set would do. Unpiloted taps are what
you'll find in 1.370 x 26tpi at most bike shops.)

There was mention made of the cup material. Raleigh's cups
are good carbon steel and hardened well. So, yes, slits cut
in the leading edge with a carbide saw blade could indeed
make a one use tap. But I think a thin cup with 5/8" flats
1mm deep would be a difficult thing to hold or drive.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Cut the excess material with a 1/4 rotary file to just below
the thread height. Clear the threads with a set of taps.
(Even an unpiloted set would do. Unpiloted taps are what
you'll find in 1.370 x 26tpi at most bike shops.)

There was mention made of the cup material. Raleigh's cups
are good carbon steel and hardened well. So, yes, slits cut
in the leading edge with a carbide saw blade could indeed
make a one use tap. But I think a thin cup with 5/8" flats
1mm deep would be a difficult thing to hold or drive.

Thanks for the advice. Buying a Raleigh BB tap or a Phil BB for this is
sort of out of the question. So just make a gap in the threads of the
old cups like a regular tap has? I assume that making the leading edge
be tapered like a regular tap wouldn't serve any purpose here since
we're not starting a new thread? To drive it in, I can use the
rod-shaped Hozan (at least I think it's Hozan) fixed cup
installation/removal tool that clamps to the inside of the cup.

A Muzi said:

If I understood his description, the threads of the OP's Raleigh shell
are occluded by the chainstays. They prevent the cups from screwing in
sufficiently deep to get any pressure on the cartridge.

All 4 tubes frequently extend into the thread of nicer quality handmade
frames and are threaded at the edge. The OP surmised that simply
cutting away any excess and rethreading would solve the problem and I
agree.

Cut the excess material with a 1/4 rotary file to just below the thread
height. Clear the threads with a set of taps. (Even an unpiloted set
would do. Unpiloted taps are what you'll find in 1.370 x 26tpi at most
bike shops.)

"Most bike shops?" Most bike shops are doing well if they have ISO
taps. I doubt there are 20 shops in the country that have 26 tpi BB
taps and know where to find them.

Quoted message said:

There was mention made of the cup material. Raleigh's cups are good
carbon steel and hardened well. So, yes, slits cut in the leading edge
with a carbide saw blade could indeed make a one use tap. But I think a
thin cup with 5/8" flats 1mm deep would be a difficult thing to hold or
drive.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

Sheldon "Nuts & Bolts" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| There are several good protections against temptation, |
| but the surest is cowardice. --Mark Twain |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Quoted message said:

Also, I wanted to pass on a tip for other people doing Twenty
conversions: We're using a stock replacement fork for a Sun recumbent
that's readily available from J&B. Don't think it's in the catalog.
Don't remember what model it's for; I'll try to figure it out and

post

Quoted message said:

it later. It's full chromo, the steerer is long enough and it has

canti

Quoted message said:

studs. Don't know how well it's going to work with the bike's

geometry,

Quoted message said:

but we're planning on bending it around some if needed. Cool, huh?

Do tell about this fork, please! I have a Raleigh 20 frame and fork
waiting to be built up, except the fork seems to have been tweaked
beyond repair.

Quoted post said:

A friend and I are doing a full scale conversion of a Raleigh 20. For
the bottom bracket, we're doing the Raleigh-threaded Phil cups & UN72
thing. However, we've run into a problem: the cups can't thread in far
enough to engage the UN72 cartridge fully. They run into the ends of
the chainstays inside the BB shell, and beyond that they may be out of
thread (the bike is not currently in front of me, otherwise I'd
measure). Is it reasonable to grind the ends of the chainstays off to
the extent possible with a Dremel, and then try to cut new threads
using the old BB cups as taps?

you get one chance to do this. If it doesn't work you cannot easily
go back - you have no BB cups for the unusual Raleigh Bottom Brackets.
Moreover, you may have damaged the unusual threads in your BB
shell.

These days when I see a repair technique with this drawback, I take a
break, relax, get cup of coffee, and think of other repairs to try,
saving this one in my brain as the one try as a LAST RESORT.

That's why i'm suggesting that you either foreshorten the phil bottom
bracket retainer-cups with a hacksaw, or perhaps you can find one or
more washers just a little bit smaller than 1.375" and the phil
retainer cups can press into the washer which presses on the shimano
UN72 cartridge. Perhaps you could swap your english UN72 cartridge
for an Italian one with Ebay ?? Or if you can pre-determine that the
bearings are wider then get a complete phil wood bottom bracket - not
just the retainer cups.

There seem to be several choices that don't involve risking the
frameset threads or BB cup threads.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Quoted post said:

A friend and I are doing a full scale conversion of a Raleigh 20. For
the bottom bracket, we're doing the Raleigh-threaded Phil cups & UN72
thing. However, we've run into a problem: the cups can't thread in
far enough to engage the UN72 cartridge fully. They run into the ends
of the chainstays inside the BB shell, and beyond that they may be
out of thread (the bike is not currently in front of me, otherwise
I'd measure). Is it reasonable to grind the ends of the chainstays
off to the extent possible with a Dremel, and then try to cut new
threads using the old BB cups as taps?

My understanding is that the phil wood reatiner cups on one or both
sides won't screw in far enough to do this. He is proposing to dremel
drill out the tubes from inside the BB and rethread the shell to the
unusual raleigh 1.375 x 26 tpi thread.

You get one chance to do this. If it doesn't work you cannot easily
go back - you have no BB cups for the unusual Raleigh Bottom Brackets.
Moreover, you may have damaged the unusual threads in your BB
shell.

These days when I see a repair technique with this drawback, I take a
break, relax, get cup of coffee, and think of other repairs to try,
saving this one in my brain as the one try as a LAST RESORT.

That's why i'm suggesting that you either foreshorten the phil bottom
bracket retainer-cups with a hacksaw (bad news, its stainless steel
not alloy - that idea is probably not the best one), or perhaps you
can find one or more washers just a little bit smaller than 1.370" and
the phil retainer cups can press into the washers which press on the
shimano UN72 cartridge ??

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#bottom

I'm guessing you may be using a Shimano English BB cartridge when an
Italian one is needed (if such things exist??) Because the raleigh
1.375 x 26 tpi bottom bracket is 71 wide or 76 mm wide, not 68. So
you can you swap the UN72/English(68) for an UN72/Italian(70) or an
UN72/Shell73(73) ??

If you can pre-determine that the bearings woudl be farther out then
get a complete phil wood 73 mm bottom bracket - not just the phil wood
retainer cups.

There seem to be several choices that don't involve risking the
frameset threads or BB cup threads.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Quoted post said:

A friend and I are doing a full scale conversion of a Raleigh 20. For
the bottom bracket, we're doing the Raleigh-threaded Phil cups & UN72
thing. However, we've run into a problem: the cups can't thread in
far enough to engage the UN72 cartridge fully. They run into the ends
of the chainstays inside the BB shell, and beyond that they may be
out of thread (the bike is not currently in front of me, otherwise
I'd measure). Is it reasonable to grind the ends of the chainstays
off to the extent possible with a Dremel, and then try to cut new
threads using the old BB cups as taps?

My understanding is that the phil wood reatiner cups on one or both
sides won't screw in far enough to do this. He is proposing to dremel
drill out the tubes from inside the BB and rethread the shell to the
unusual raleigh 1.375 x 26 tpi thread.

You get one chance to do this. If it doesn't work you cannot easily
go back - you have no BB cups for the unusual Raleigh Bottom Brackets.
Moreover, you may have damaged the unusual threads in your BB
shell.

These days when I see a repair technique with this drawback, I take a
break, relax, get cup of coffee, and think of other repairs to try,
saving this one in my brain as THE LAST RESORT.

I'm suggesting that you either foreshorten the phil bottom bracket
retainer-cups with a hacksaw (bad news, its stainless steel not alloy
- that sounds tedious), or perhaps you can find one or more washers
just a little bit smaller than 1.375" and the phil retainer cups can
press into the washers which press on the shimano UN72 cartridge ??

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#bottom

I'm guessing you may be using a Shimano English BB cartridge when an
Italian one is needed (if such things exist??) Because the original
raleigh 1.375 x 26 tpi bottom bracket is 71 wide or 76 mm wide, not
68. So can you swap the UN72/English(68) for an UN72/Italian(70) or
an UN72/Shell73(73) on EBay ??

There is also a chance that a phil wood bottom bracket would be wider
than the UN72 cartridge, and this should not be ruled out.

There seem to be four choices that don't involve risking the frameset
threads or BB cup threads.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Quoted post said:

A friend and I are doing a full scale conversion of a Raleigh 20. For
the bottom bracket, we're doing the Raleigh-threaded Phil cups & UN72
thing. However, we've run into a problem: the cups can't thread in
far enough to engage the UN72 cartridge fully. They run into the ends
of the chainstays inside the BB shell, and beyond that they may be
out of thread (the bike is not currently in front of me, otherwise
I'd measure). Is it reasonable to grind the ends of the chainstays
off to the extent possible with a Dremel, and then try to cut new
threads using the old BB cups as taps?

My understanding is that the phil wood reatiner cups on one or both
sides won't screw in far enough to do this. He is proposing to dremel
drill out the tubes from inside the BB and rethread the shell to the
unusual raleigh 1.375 x 26 tpi thread.

You get one chance to do this. If it doesn't work you cannot easily
go back - you have no BB cups for the unusual Raleigh Bottom Brackets.
Moreover, you may have damaged the unusual threads in your BB
shell.

These days when I see a repair technique with this drawback, I take a
break, relax, get cup of coffee, and think of other repairs to try,
saving this one in my brain as THE LAST RESORT.

1. I originally suggested that you foreshorten the phil bottom bracket
retainer-cups with a hacksaw. Bad news, its stainless steel not alloy
- that sounds tedious.

2. Perhaps you can find one or more washers just a little bit smaller
than 1.375" and the phil retainer cups can press into the washers
which press on the shimano UN72 cartridge ??

3. Look at the bottom bracket axle widths here :

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#bottom

I'm guessing you may be using a Shimano English BB cartridge when an
Italian one is needed (if such things exist??) Because the original
raleigh 1.375 x 26 tpi bottom bracket is 71 wide or 76 mm wide, not
68. So can you swap the UN72/English(68) for an UN72/Italian(70) or
an UN72/Shell73(73) on EBay ??

4. When I put a Sugino Maxy on my Raleigh Grand Prix (that bike has
exactly your bottom bracket), I just put the sugino cotterless spindle
into the raleigh cups. It worked great. Who says cartridge bottom
brackets are superior ?? Not always !!

5. There is a chance that a phil wood bottom bracket shell would be
wider than the UN72 cartridge, and this should not be ruled out.

There are five potential repairs that don't involve risking the
frameset threads or BB cup threads.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

It's a replacement fork for a Sun "EZ Sport CX" or "EZ Sport AX"
recumbent. These are recumbents sold by J&B Importers, one of the US's
biggest bike industry wholesalers. Virtually all shops have an account
with them and can get this part. It's not in the catalog and I had to
call down to the Florida location and get it shipped from there. Again,
I don't know how well it's going to work with the bike, (we haven't
even bothered to compare the rake of both forks) but it's geometry is
pretty normal looking, as the stock fork's is, so it will probably be
fine even if it requires a bit of cold-setting for it to steer well.
It's also very possible that if this one's rake doesn't end up being a
good match, there's some recumbent fork out that there that will work
better. (The issue with all this being that Twenties have 20" wheels
and head tubes that are as long as a large adult bike's, so BMX-type
forks can't work without a lengthening of the steerer.) When you order
it, I suggest the person making the order runs through the
specifications with the sales rep.

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

Cut the excess material with a 1/4 rotary file to just below
the thread height. Clear the threads with a set of taps.
(Even an unpiloted set would do. Unpiloted taps are what
you'll find in 1.370 x 26tpi at most bike shops.)

There was mention made of the cup material. Raleigh's cups
are good carbon steel and hardened well. So, yes, slits cut
in the leading edge with a carbide saw blade could indeed
make a one use tap. But I think a thin cup with 5/8" flats
1mm deep would be a difficult thing to hold or drive.

Thanks for the advice. Buying a Raleigh BB tap or a Phil BB for this is
sort of out of the question. So just make a gap in the threads of the
old cups like a regular tap has? I assume that making the leading edge
be tapered like a regular tap wouldn't serve any purpose here since
we're not starting a new thread? To drive it in, I can use the
rod-shaped Hozan (at least I think it's Hozan) fixed cup
installation/removal tool that clamps to the inside of the cup.

Did you ask your LBS about 1.370x26 BB taps? They used to
be very available and cheap as they were sold in unpiloted
sets by HKC-Hozan. We and I think most Raleigh dealers from
that era have 'em. They don't get all that much use so if
you find them at all, they should be sharp still.

Otherwise sure, just cut a few slits in a Raleigh cup and
yes a right cup tool is a great way to hold one.

But first, cut away that chainstay protrusion and see if the
thread needs cleaning at all!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

If I understood his description, the threads of the OP's Raleigh shell
are occluded by the chainstays. They prevent the cups from screwing
in sufficiently deep to get any pressure on the cartridge.

All 4 tubes frequently extend into the thread of nicer quality
handmade frames and are threaded at the edge. The OP surmised that
simply cutting away any excess and rethreading would solve the problem
and I agree.

Cut the excess material with a 1/4 rotary file to just below the
thread height. Clear the threads with a set of taps. (Even an
unpiloted set would do. Unpiloted taps are what you'll find in 1.370 x
26tpi at most bike shops.)

Sheldon Brown said:

"Most bike shops?" Most bike shops are doing well if they have ISO
taps. I doubt there are 20 shops in the country that have 26 tpi BB
taps and know where to find them.

(am)>> There was mention made of the cup material. Raleigh's
cups are good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

carbon steel and hardened well. So, yes, slits cut in the leading edge
with a carbide saw blade could indeed make a one use tap. But I think
a thin cup with 5/8" flats 1mm deep would be a difficult thing to hold
or drive.

(sb)

Quoted message said:

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html
Sheldon "Nuts & Bolts" Brown

OK, I don't get out much.

Raleigh encouraged dealers to buy that sort of thing and
used to virtually give them away . In my 1978 book they are
$16.00/set and I think we paid less than that a few years
earlier. These aren't very useful or worth much, being
unpiloted, but might help this guy.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In message <[email hidden]>,
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

A friend and I are doing a full scale conversion of a Raleigh 20. For
the bottom bracket, we're doing the Raleigh-threaded Phil cups & UN72
thing. However, we've run into a problem: the cups can't thread in far
enough to engage the UN72 cartridge fully. They run into the ends of
the chainstays inside the BB shell,

I don't think so as the stays are flattened and MIG/MAG welded to the
outside of the shell. It could be the weld you have hit or

Quoted message said:

and beyond that they may be out of
thread (the bike is not currently in front of me, otherwise I'd
measure).

maybe more likely especially if you have got the wrong width -

Quoted message said:

Anyone know if there have there been different outside widths of
Shimano BB cartridges that don't have the threaded part integrated with
the bearing part? Any advice?

What length of shell was the UN72 made for? It should be the one
intended for a 73mm shell I think. These are made for the older mountain
bikes that had extra wide shells.

See

http://www.sjscycles.com/store/cat21.htm

just over half way down listed as:

Shimano UN72/3 73mm shell Sealed B/B

I have never done the above conversion preferring the option of using
the existing cups, a Japanese spindle and 6mm balls. I think Sheldon's
site says what English size to use if you can't get metric balls easily.
(1/4" will not do). You have to take a couple of mm off the non-drive
side of the shell to get the lock ring on. This option is cheap, and
easy and less risky than trying to cut threads (should you really need
to do that for the UN72). However, my way does not give you a sealed
bottom bracket if that matters.

Other points about R20 conversion.

I suggest you either take off the very top bit of the head tube with the
slot in it or put a reinforcing ring around and then, in either case,
reface and ream out for your headset. I did not do any of these things
on one of mine and split the head tube at the corner of the slot.

Concerning the fork with canti bosses, I think the 406mm BMX wheel
should only be used with fairly fat ty(i)res unless you go for very
short cranks. For a skinny (28mm) or medium (37mm) tyres the 451mm rim
works far better as you get a decent bottom bracket height and if you
don't want to braze on bosses at the correct height, front and rear, or
are going for drop bars you can use a longish but effective double pivot
brake like the Alhonga 714. I've found these work very well with reverse
levers specifically the Tektro RX4.1.

The later 20s sold in the UK had a reasonable taper fork with a proper
end to take a mudguard (fender) stay. I have got over the 26 tpi thread
problem on the fork by using an ahead set upper bearing held down and
adjusted by the original nut and lock nut over a couple of spacers. A
conventional quill stem or internal expander type stem extender can then
be used (not an ahead stem or clamp-over extender). I'm not sure if any
of these late type forks made it to North America.

Velocity do nice narrow 451mm rims to suit 28mm tyres and Sun do CR18s
still I think. For tyres there are now Schwalbe Stelvios in 28 - 451 as
well as IRC Roadlites but for a bit smoother ride I prefer Comets in 35
- 451. Of course supply of either (or most likely all) could dry up at
any moment and then those of us with a considerable investment in 451s
will be unhappy. I hope the Bike Friday 451 market is large enough to
keep the tyre manufacturers interested.

I don't think I would venture out around here on Sheldon's skinny tyre
fixed wheel as shown on his Twenty page unless the new fork (not shown
in the picture) has lifted it up a good bit. We have so many odd slopes
where roads join that pedal grounding would be certain.

--

Martyn Aldis, e-mail [email hidden]
==============================================================================

A Muzi said:

Unpiloted taps are what
you'll find in 1.370 x 26tpi at most bike shops.)

I have worked in a few bike shops, and I have been welcome at the
workbenches of a handful of others. I have never wrenched in a shop
that kept Raleigh-specific thread cutting tools.

I imagine that the shops in possession of such esoteric tools are
mostly those that were fully equipped 30 or more years ago. Most bike
shops in business today were established long after Raleigh's oddball
26tpi threads had met a long-overdue and richly-deserved fate.

Chalo Colina