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Race Report: Columbus Marathon - Limiting Factor?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
22 October 2004
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25 October 2004
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Eric
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  1. Last Sunday I completed the Columbus Marathon. Finished in 3:09 in my
    goal range of 3:08-3:10. The conditions where cool (39 start - 45
    finish) and very windy. This my third marathon in 3 years: '02
    Cincinnati 3:15 '03 Columbus 3:28 (cramped at mi19). Long time runner,
    but recent marathoner.

    The week before the race, I overloaded my quads doing house
    construction creating 2 days of muscle soreness and worried about
    insufficient taper. Folks here convinced me I was ready and that
    appears to be true.

    My initial goals where to go out at 3:10 pace on first half. Pick up
    just a bit if I felt great. Then get over the hill (actually small
    mile long rise) at ~mi 19 that caused me to cramp the year before.
    Then see what I had left to finish.

    I wanted to start slow to warm up but was slower than expected hitting
    the 1st mile at almost 8:00 almost. Then over compensated on the next
    2 miles at 6:46, 6:52. Then found a group talking about 3:10 finish
    goal and decided I should follow them (there was no race sponsored
    3:10 group or I would have been with them).

    Hit the halfway point on pace. Legs started to feel some pain (which I
    did not expect). The small group I was running with fell apart over
    the next few miles and I set my sights on getting over the hill
    (rise). When I reached it I found that it had expanded to in my mind
    and was not very steep. I cleared it faster than expected with mile 19
    at 7:40. Although, by the time I reached the top, my legs were getting
    very tight and threatening to cramp (at least in my mind). I continued
    a bit slower over mile 20 to let my legs (and mind?) recover, at 7:30.

    Once my legs felt good (actually sore, but loose), I turned to the
    final part of my plan: Go faster to the finish if I am ready to do so.
    Having had an excellent training preparation including at very fast
    10K that would predict a sub 3:00 marathon, I pick up the pace. Mile
    21 came in at 6:40. This was probably too fast. And my legs tightened
    and threated cramping once again, bringing back memories of the
    previous year. Knowing that leg cramping would probably mean the
    difference between a sucessful marathon and a repeat of the previous
    year. I backed off the pace slightly with miles 23,24,25 at ~7:20.

    Over this last stretch, my legs were in definite severe pain, and
    cycled from loose to tight. I definitely could have pushed them
    harder, but feared the worse. I did manage to finish the last 1.2 at
    about 7:00 pace. It is nice to finish strong.

    Once across the finish line, I could barely make it through the
    feeding trough. I sat and fed on a bench for 5-10 minutes and started
    to freeze. Realizing I had a half mile to go to get back to the YMCA
    where my stuff and car was, I decided to head out. I made it to the Y
    in a painful shuffle (+30:00 pace) shivering (luckly I had sent a
    heavy sweatshirt to the finish area).

    This has been a good enough experience that I will be back for another
    marathon in 2005. I do plan on some minor adjustments to my training
    and would be interested in any feedback. I would like to get closer to
    my predicted marathon capability that my recent 37:07 10K would
    suggest.

    Here are my ideas:
    1) Current training is working well (Pfitzinger, Advanced
    Marathoning), don't change much. My increased experience base
    (training and racing) will allow me to go faster.
    2) Focus a bit more on leg strength. Weights in pre/early build up.
    Then, hills and sprints in program.
    3) Slight increase in distance if body/time permits. Always seems to
    help.
    4) Maybe be more conservative in my taper, definitely watch other
    activities week before.
    5) Maybe choose a marathon that is flatter at the end (I know Columbus
    is a flat marathon). Even the Cincinnati marathon that has a more
    substantial climb, but (if they run the same as 2004) it comes early
    and the last 10+ miles are flat to slight downhill. Also, I run these
    roads every week and they would not be a mental challenge.

  2. congrats, good job. some questions. what model shoes did you wear and was it
    the same pair you train in? how many miles did you have on them prior to the
    marathon?

    what clothing did you wear? gloves? in starting a M at 39 degrees, i would
    have had on $1 cheapo knit gloves and maybe even a cheapo knit cap. might
    have tossed the cap to the side after my head felt good and warm....and likely
    would have tossed the gloves to the side later. singlet or long sleeve running
    shirt of some sort?

    nutrition. anything special prior/heading into the race? Gel or Bar during?
    Your hydration management?

    do you mind telling us your weight? i'm wondering about your physical
    structure, the leg pain and stresses placed on your legs/ankles/feet relative
    to the distance....blood circulation perhaps...and weather...who knows. don't
    know your age but a 50+ old marathoner guy i know races with a small pack of
    one of those BenGay type of Sports Cremes in the elastic back pocket of his
    long distance running shorts. should at any point he feel sore-pain on
    anywhere on his legs...he simply pulls it out and slaps it on the area in an
    effort to seek immediate relief to get him through the race...

  3. Big Congrats, Eric! Sorry the legs started giving you heck, but good
    on you for keeping up. Could you need more electrolytes possibly?
    But sounds to me like you ran it intelligently.

    Teresa in AZ

    Eric said:

    Last Sunday I completed the Columbus Marathon. Finished in 3:09 in my
    goal range of 3:08-3:10. The conditions where cool (39 start - 45
    finish) and very windy. This my third marathon in 3 years: '02
    Cincinnati 3:15 '03 Columbus 3:28 (cramped at mi19). Long time runner,
    but recent marathoner.

    The week before the race, I overloaded my quads doing house
    construction creating 2 days of muscle soreness and worried about
    insufficient taper. Folks here convinced me I was ready and that
    appears to be true.

    My initial goals where to go out at 3:10 pace on first half. Pick up
    just a bit if I felt great. Then get over the hill (actually small
    mile long rise) at ~mi 19 that caused me to cramp the year before.
    Then see what I had left to finish.

    I wanted to start slow to warm up but was slower than expected hitting
    the 1st mile at almost 8:00 almost. Then over compensated on the next
    2 miles at 6:46, 6:52. Then found a group talking about 3:10 finish
    goal and decided I should follow them (there was no race sponsored
    3:10 group or I would have been with them).

    Hit the halfway point on pace. Legs started to feel some pain (which I
    did not expect). The small group I was running with fell apart over
    the next few miles and I set my sights on getting over the hill
    (rise). When I reached it I found that it had expanded to in my mind
    and was not very steep. I cleared it faster than expected with mile 19
    at 7:40. Although, by the time I reached the top, my legs were getting
    very tight and threatening to cramp (at least in my mind). I continued
    a bit slower over mile 20 to let my legs (and mind?) recover, at 7:30.

    Once my legs felt good (actually sore, but loose), I turned to the
    final part of my plan: Go faster to the finish if I am ready to do so.
    Having had an excellent training preparation including at very fast
    10K that would predict a sub 3:00 marathon, I pick up the pace. Mile
    21 came in at 6:40. This was probably too fast. And my legs tightened
    and threated cramping once again, bringing back memories of the
    previous year. Knowing that leg cramping would probably mean the
    difference between a sucessful marathon and a repeat of the previous
    year. I backed off the pace slightly with miles 23,24,25 at ~7:20.

    Over this last stretch, my legs were in definite severe pain, and
    cycled from loose to tight. I definitely could have pushed them
    harder, but feared the worse. I did manage to finish the last 1.2 at
    about 7:00 pace. It is nice to finish strong.

    Once across the finish line, I could barely make it through the
    feeding trough. I sat and fed on a bench for 5-10 minutes and started
    to freeze. Realizing I had a half mile to go to get back to the YMCA
    where my stuff and car was, I decided to head out. I made it to the Y
    in a painful shuffle (+30:00 pace) shivering (luckly I had sent a
    heavy sweatshirt to the finish area).

    This has been a good enough experience that I will be back for another
    marathon in 2005. I do plan on some minor adjustments to my training
    and would be interested in any feedback. I would like to get closer to
    my predicted marathon capability that my recent 37:07 10K would
    suggest.

    Here are my ideas:
    1) Current training is working well (Pfitzinger, Advanced
    Marathoning), don't change much. My increased experience base
    (training and racing) will allow me to go faster.
    2) Focus a bit more on leg strength. Weights in pre/early build up.
    Then, hills and sprints in program.
    3) Slight increase in distance if body/time permits. Always seems to
    help.
    4) Maybe be more conservative in my taper, definitely watch other
    activities week before.
    5) Maybe choose a marathon that is flatter at the end (I know Columbus
    is a flat marathon). Even the Cincinnati marathon that has a more
    substantial climb, but (if they run the same as 2004) it comes early
    and the last 10+ miles are flat to slight downhill. Also, I run these
    roads every week and they would not be a mental challenge.

  4. Congrats on a good race, Eric! Sounds as if you had your head in the
    race the whole way, and for a marathon, that's quite an achievement,
    even if you've done them before. Way to go!

    --
    Brian P. Baresch
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Professional editing and proofreading

    If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

  5. "Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Congrats on a successful finish.

    Quoted message said:

    ... Mile 21 came in at 6:40. This was probably too fast. And my legs


    tightened

    Quoted message said:

    and threated cramping once again, bringing back memories of the
    previous year. Knowing that leg cramping would probably mean the
    difference between a sucessful marathon and a repeat of the previous
    year. I backed off the pace slightly with miles 23,24,25 at ~7:20.

    Your limiting factor here was your cramping. Ideally, your limiting factor
    should be how much you want to hurt after mile 20 ;-) You probably didn't
    do this, but if you'd weighed yourself before the start and after the
    finish, I'd bet that you were pretty dehydrated (and also low on salt) by
    race-end.

    As I wrote (to the ridicule of Lance) earlier, cramping is often caused
    caused by dehydration. The cure is to drink more and take a couple of
    succeed caps during the race. If your stomach is too sloshy or queasy to
    drink much, you're most likely low on salt. An Succeed capsule will settle
    the stomach and allow you to absorb liquid quickly.

    If you drink more and still get that funny pre-cramp feeling, then drink an
    extra amount from there on and take a succeed with the first big drink. I
    find that this nips the cramping in the bud and I can resume my race pace.

    From your account, my take is that if you'd been able to prevent cramping,
    you'd have been able to go out at 6:52 and given 3 hours a good run for the
    money. If you had enough left to increase your pace 35 seconds/mile at mile
    21 and not bonk, you went out a bit too conservatively for your best
    performance, imo.

    Great run, and good luck,

    -- Dan

    Quoted message said:

    Over this last stretch, my legs were in definite severe pain, and
    cycled from loose to tight. I definitely could have pushed them
    harder, but feared the worse. I did manage to finish the last 1.2 at
    about 7:00 pace. It is nice to finish strong.

    Once across the finish line, I could barely make it through the
    feeding trough. I sat and fed on a bench for 5-10 minutes and started
    to freeze. Realizing I had a half mile to go to get back to the YMCA
    where my stuff and car was, I decided to head out. I made it to the Y
    in a painful shuffle (+30:00 pace) shivering (luckly I had sent a
    heavy sweatshirt to the finish area).

    This has been a good enough experience that I will be back for another
    marathon in 2005. I do plan on some minor adjustments to my training
    and would be interested in any feedback. I would like to get closer to
    my predicted marathon capability that my recent 37:07 10K would
    suggest.

    Here are my ideas:
    1) Current training is working well (Pfitzinger, Advanced
    Marathoning), don't change much. My increased experience base
    (training and racing) will allow me to go faster.
    2) Focus a bit more on leg strength. Weights in pre/early build up.
    Then, hills and sprints in program.
    3) Slight increase in distance if body/time permits. Always seems to
    help.
    4) Maybe be more conservative in my taper, definitely watch other
    activities week before.
    5) Maybe choose a marathon that is flatter at the end (I know Columbus
    is a flat marathon). Even the Cincinnati marathon that has a more
    substantial climb, but (if they run the same as 2004) it comes early
    and the last 10+ miles are flat to slight downhill. Also, I run these
    roads every week and they would not be a mental challenge.

  6. Quoted message said:

    As I wrote (to the ridicule of Lance) earlier, cramping is often caused


    caused by dehydration. The cure is to drink more and take a couple of
    succeed caps <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    An Succeed capsule will settle


    the stomach and allow you to absorb liquid quickly.

    Quoted message said:

    ......<snip>...and take a succeed


    __

    1. dan, it's provocative dialog to induce stimulating conversaion, don't take
    it personally. amuse yourself in the diatribe.

    2. Do you own stock in Succeed!? Earn commissons maybe?

    3. Dan, I let it go at the time but since you've elected to bring it up, i'll
    respond. your advice was irresponsible at the time because marathon day is
    not the day to "experiment" w/your physiology. you failed to bring the full
    context of issues that should be considered in supplimenting w/sodium
    (Bi)carbonate as some have done so and it's resulted in vomiting and diarrhea.
    In sum, it's possible your advice could have lead the person or a lurker up
    [censored] creek (literally).

    what you should have done is informed the person of this potentiality, however
    how slim. it would have also been helpful if you pointed the person to the
    numerour calculators that advise limits of psodium bicarbonate relative to
    weight.

    Here's a place wherein a person can educate themeselves about the potential
    upside, potential downside, and they even have a calculator wherein you can
    plug in your weight and see their view of your limit levels (based on their
    studies which they cite). this is what you did not do, Dan (bring full
    context/scope supported by informed people).

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa77.htm

    (take it fwiw, there are lots of sites on this subjet).

    what you did do well Dan is be a door-to-door salesman for SUCCEED!....(does
    the guy make this in his bathtub along the lines of a crystal meth lab?).
    just kidding Dan...relax....

  7. "Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    1. dan, it's provocative dialog to induce stimulating conversaion,
    don't take
    it personally. amuse yourself in the diatribe.

    2. Do you own stock in Succeed!? Earn commissons maybe?

    To partake in the amusment, no Dan does not own stock in Succeed! or get
    a commission and neither do I. I'm not sure what your background is in
    endurance running but too many people on marathon race day are crashing
    from low electrolytes specifically salt. On the ultra circuit to race
    without some clear cut salt plan is tantamount to doing a mountain bike
    race in a one speed Huffy and expecting to score. Dan and I knee jerk to
    SUCCEED products because they work.

    If we simply said that low salt is often the primary cause of marathon
    cramping and let it go at that, the next question would be what to do.
    In essence he/we offer what we learned9and sometimes the hard way) so
    it can be factored back in so others can avoid or lessen the problem. Of
    course experiment during training.

    Let's try the corollary - do have some problem with Succeed products?

    Quoted message said:

    3. Dan, I let it go at the time but since you've elected to bring it
    up, i'll
    respond. your advice was irresponsible at the time because marathon
    day is
    not the day to "experiment" w/your physiology.

    I thought this horse was dead and in the glue bottle.

    Lance, when crossing the street look both ways.

    -D

  8. Quoted message said:


    Let's try the corollary - do have some problem with Succeed products?
    _

    DF, hey doug. it was dead, your pal Dan elected to bring my name into his
    response which was unnecessary. I think my response/post speaks for itself and
    is appreciably more informative for the benefit of all (if you follow the link)
    than what had been said on the topic.

    Succeed!: Have you tried Lava Salts Doug? How about you Dan?

    http://www.squeezy.com/salts.htm

    I've never seen SUCCEED! break down (in detail) its ingrediants in detail.
    What's the guy's website that breaks down the ingrediants so we can all see?
    For example, Lava Salts defines the types of sodium it includes in detail. All
    I've ever seen from Succeed is that is has 344mg of sodium and 21 mg of
    Potassium. What's the SUCCEED! web site Doug?

    Can we compare and counter that to Lava Salts? Take a look at the site and
    you'll see it breaks down informing the consumer exactly the amounts and which
    type of sodium is in each capsule. Cumulatively, per capsule, Lava Salts is
    giving you 460mg per capsule of sodium (and they break down in detail how much
    of which type). And you get more 30mg Potassium. And my goodness...you also
    get 170mg of Maltodextrin (which I am sure you and Dan don't have a problem
    with...do you?).

    So Doug, in reponse to your direct question. Yes I have a problem with
    Succeed. Specifically I cannot find a website on the product to learn the
    details on the ingrediants of the product, the specific types of sodium for
    example. The other problem I have with it is that it's inferior to Lava Salts
    (on a per capsule basis).

    Doug, as much as I like you, my fellow New Yorker,....I can't quite ignore the
    inferior aspects of succeed to Lava Salts...and recognize it as a better
    suppliment...just because you know the succeed guy. Now, I am sure there are
    plenty of people out there that prefer inferior products and will elect succeed
    over lava salts. But the unbiased? Those focused on the ingrediants and
    compounds? Those people will not ignore facts, science, and choose Lava Salts
    over your buddies caps. That's my answer to your question Doug.

    My question to you now Doug. Now that you are informed of an alternative, an
    option, something that per cap is clearly a superior product. Are you capable
    of being unbiased and experimenting in training w/Lava Salts?

  9. Succeed caps http://www.ultrafit-endurance.com

    I have both lava salts and Succeed caps.

    Lava salts:

    Sodium Chloride 255mg
    Sodium Bicarbonate 80mg
    Sodium Citrite 75mg
    Sodium Phosphate 50mg
    = Sodium 460mg
    Potassium Chloride 30mg
    (S:P ratio = 15:1)
    + Magnesium stearate, maltodextrin, gelatin.
    Directions: 12-16oz water per cap, no more than 2 per hour.

    Succeed cap:

    Sodium 341mg
    Potassium 21mg
    (S:P ratio = 16:1)
    ingredients: Sodium Chloride, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Phosphate,
    Potassium Chloride
    Directions:
    Cool weather or very light sweating, take 1 cap per 2 hours.
    Moderate sweating 1 cap per hour.
    Heavy sweating 1 cap every 1/2 hour.
    Don't exceed 2 per hour.

    They're the same ratio basically and comparably priced. Lava salts cost a
    bit more but give you more per cap. Lava salts break down ingredients a bit
    more, but Succeed caps give you better directions. Also with a smaller dose
    size, succeed caps give you more options. They're almost exactly the same
    except for dose size.

    -Tony

  10. Leafing through rec.running, I read Tony's message of 23 Oct 2004:

    Quoted message said:

    Lava salts:

    Sodium Chloride 255mg
    Sodium Bicarbonate 80mg
    Sodium Citrite 75mg
    Sodium Phosphate 50mg
    = Sodium 460mg
    Potassium Chloride 30mg
    (S:P ratio = 15:1)
    + Magnesium stearate, maltodextrin, gelatin.
    Directions: 12-16oz water per cap, no more than 2 per hour.

    Succeed cap:

    Sodium 341mg
    Potassium 21mg
    (S:P ratio = 16:1)
    ingredients: Sodium Chloride, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Phosphate,
    Potassium Chloride

    That's the same information I have. However said:

    I've never seen SUCCEED! break down (in detail) its ingrediants
    in detail.

    We still don't have the details for Succeed!, just the ingredients. I tried
    searching the Ultrarunning mailing list archives at
    http://listserv.dartmouth.edu/archives/ultra.html. There are lots of
    messages from Karl King (creator, owner), but I couldn't nail down the
    exact quantities of each indgredient (like Lava Salts does).

    If Karl reads this group, maybe he can respond.

    Phil M.

    --
    "What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John Short,
    South African coach.

  11. "Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If Karl reads this group, maybe he can respond.

    He does not.

    -df

  12. "Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Succeed!: Have you tried Lava Salts Doug? How about you Dan?

    I have never tried LS. I have been totally satisfed with S!caps and nevr
    when looking for an alternative

    Quoted message said:

    What's the SUCCEED! web site Doug?

    http://store.yahoo.com/ultrafit/index.html

    Quoted message said:

    The other problem I have with it is that it's inferior to Lava Salts
    (on a per capsule basis).

    Inferior how?

    Quoted message said:

    My question to you now Doug. Now that you are informed of an
    alternative, an
    option, something that per cap is clearly a superior product.

    Superior how?

    Quoted message said:

    Are you capable
    of being unbiased and experimenting in training w/Lava Salts?

    Not until you convince me of the superiority or the inferiority. As a
    side issue why are the putting matodextrin in a salt cap? Am I be paying
    an extra $4 for maltodextrin whioch I don't want?

    -Doug

  13. "Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    DF, hey doug. it was dead, your pal Dan elected to bring my name into


    his

    Quoted message said:

    response which was unnecessary.

    Hey, Lance, chill out!!! I wrote it with a smile on my face, and should
    have put a smiley or some such thing next to it. I can tolerate
    disagreement without rancor.

    -- Dan

  14. Maybe my limiting factor is my slightly conservative nature. I'm fairly
    certain that I could get to the 18mi mark at anywhere from 2:50 pace. I do
    fear breaking down not finishing or hobbling across the finish line (with a
    very sub-optimal time). With luck (and hard work), my life and body will
    hold up to allow me many more marathons. Each successive attempt, I know
    better how to pace myself and how my body will react.

    "Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    congrats, good job. some questions. what model shoes did you wear and
    was it
    the same pair you train in? how many miles did you have on them prior to
    the
    marathon?


    NewBalance-900 (Light weight training shoes with some motion control, my
    description) Very similar to my NB765 daily wear shoes. Primed specifically
    for this race ~100mi, including pace runs, long runs, and shorter races.

    Quoted message said:

    what clothing did you wear? gloves? in starting a M at 39 degrees, i
    would
    have had on $1 cheapo knit gloves and maybe even a cheapo knit cap.
    might
    have tossed the cap to the side after my head felt good and warm....and
    likely
    would have tossed the gloves to the side later. singlet or long sleeve
    running
    shirt of some sort?


    Selected clothing seemed right on. Coolmax Tshirt, thin tight thermal top
    that I dropped at mile 18, old socks for glove dumped midrace, headband came
    home in my pocket.

    Quoted message said:

    nutrition. anything special prior/heading into the race? Gel or Bar
    during?
    Your hydration management?


    I mix water and gatoraid at each water stop and walk a few steps to ensure I
    get 4-6 oz in. I don't train with gel or bars so I refuse them during the
    race. Carbo loaded, totally hydrated by start.

    Quoted message said:

    do you mind telling us your weight? i'm wondering about your physical
    structure, the leg pain and stresses placed on your legs/ankles/feet
    relative
    to the distance....blood circulation perhaps...and weather...who knows.
    don't
    know your age but a 50+ old marathoner guy i know races with a small pack
    of
    one of those BenGay type of Sports Cremes in the elastic back pocket of
    his
    long distance running shorts. should at any point he feel sore-pain on
    anywhere on his legs...he simply pulls it out and slaps it on the area in
    an
    effort to seek immediate relief to get him through the race...


    I'm 43 and 157# at 6'. I could and may try to drop a few more pounds before
    next marathon, but think that for my abilities, may structure is about
    right. Last year, I raced at ~162#. In general, joints felt better this
    marathon than others. Pain was primarily in quads although the calfs let
    themselves be known as well.

    I might consider the sports creme idea. I'll give it a try when I get back
    to running long.

  15. .....for the record, i don't use either Lava or Succeed! and am not positioned
    to speak from experience. I'm also not much of a distance runner. But I can
    say as for the need/value of sodium intake....I find sufficient sodium from my
    gel of preference/choice, which are E-gels. 220mg of sodium & 80 mg of
    postassium per pack. I bet most of you Gel users are getting about 50mg of
    sodium out your gel?

    http://cranksports.com/products/eGel/default.asp

    one thing that i agree is underappreciated w/runners is the value of nutrient
    maintenance in the course of an event. and it can vary wildly in that most Gel
    instructions say to take one every 40 minutes or so?....but the instructions
    don't defne an audience. Dosage should be calibrated to height & weight or
    something more congnizant of the athletes physical structure. When I first
    got introduced to Gels...I thought "how can 1 Gel be sufficient and on target
    for a 5'2" 110 .lb female and a 6'2" 210 male a the same time?

    The rules of guidance are too loosely defined...and for optimum
    performance...it pays to find what your unique size/weight needs are in the way
    of suppliments in the course of a race.

  16. "Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ....for the record, i don't use either Lava or Succeed! and am not
    positioned
    to speak from experience.

    Just as sidebar on the Lava caps. As Tony pointed out the Na and K are
    very close even if we don't know the exact Mg's of S!C. What I don't
    like from simply reading the label was the 170 Mg of maltodextrin. I'm
    not a separatist unless, it means separating George Bush from the
    presidency, but I don't want my carbs bundled with my salt. On a really
    hot day it is very common to take a cap every 1/2 hour and that would
    drag too much maltodextrin especially if you're between aid stations.
    For me, my salt and maltodextrin do not march together.

    -DougF

  17. [email hidden] (Lanceandrew) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    3. Dan, I let it go at the time but since you've elected to bring it up, i'll
    respond. your advice was irresponsible at the time because marathon day is
    not the day to "experiment" w/your physiology.

    Person A doesn´t drink any liquids whatsoever during his
    long runs; would it be irresposible to advise him to
    drink plenty of water during the marathon?

    Person B has suffered from leg cramps on his previous
    marathon and is concerned about their reoccurrence; would
    it be irresponsible to advise him to be bold and take
    one <bleep> capsule one and another two hours into the
    marathon?

    If there is a neat one-word answer to one or both of these
    questions, I don´t think it is a big fat categorical "Yes!"...

    Quoted message said:

    you failed to bring the full context of issues that should be considered
    in supplimenting w/sodium (Bi)carbonate as some have done so and it's
    resulted in vomiting and diarrhea.

    Ingestion of sodium bicarbonate, also known as baking soda,
    can result in nausea or diarrhea, that´s true - but are you
    aware of the dosage that is associated with such potential
    side-effects?

    It is 0.3g per kg of body weight. An average-sized chap would
    gulp down 20 grams (usually before a race, though). How much
    sodium bicarbonate does one <bleep> capsule contain?

    But say, Lance, what do you think about choline?:-)

    Anders

  18. << How much
    sodium bicarbonate does one <bleep> capsule contain?

    But say, Lance, what do you think about choline?:-)
    Anders>>

    Ah yes, choline, a rich source, eggs.
    Or merely toss back, swallow, a powdered
    Capsule. Both an impervious shell.
    Embryo encapsulated: same self, empowered,
    An impervious shell rolling down a hill ~
    Ignite [neuro]transmission! They key turns
    This Magic Carpet's ignition ~ Raise
    High our Human Condition, carpenters!

    _______
    Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
    <A
    HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
    s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

  19. "Raise high the roof-beam, carpenters. (Hymenaeus!) Like Ares comes the
    bridegroom, (Hymenaeus!) taller far than a tall man. (Hymenaeus!"

    -- The Divine Sappho

    << Ignite [neuro]transmission! They key turns
    This Magic Carpet's ignition ~ Raise
    High our Human Condition, carpenters! >>

    _______
    Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
    <A
    HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
    s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

  20. "I have a fair daughter with a form like a golden flower, Cleïs the
    beloved, above whom I [prize] nor all Lydia nor lovely [Lesbos] . . .

    I have a child, a lovely one,
    In beauty like the golden sun,
    Or like sweet flowers of earliest bloom;
    And Claïs is her name, for whom
    I Lydia's treasures, were they mine,
    Would glad resign.

    A lovely little girl is ours,
            Kleïs the beloved,
            Kleïs is her name,
    Whose beauty is as the golden flowers

    All joy to thee, daughter of Polyanax.

    In a dream I spake with the daughter of Cyprus
    Why, lovely swallow, daughter of Pandion, [weary] me?
    Ah, Procne, wherefore dost thou weary me?
    Thus flitting out and flitting in . . .
    Tease not the air with this tumultuous wing."

    -- The Divine Sappho

    _______
    Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
    <A
    HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
    s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

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