Race Options

Duram said:

why not used those sports competitions ( Tour the France! too) to show
people what new and best in recumbent and marketing, maybe that can increase sales
and drop prices.

You don't have to convince /us/, but you *do* have to convince the UCI,
and in turn the vested interests who have nothing to gain and much to
lose if the standard upright racer suddenly becomes obsolete.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

The event was called RAAM. there was a recumbent team. They rode fully
faired lightning bikes.

Go to
http://www.lightningbikes.com

for more info

"Duram" <danur@@ig.com.br> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just saw in a German TV channel DW about a bike race between San Diego

and

Quoted message said:

Atlantic City,
no recumbent were used, why is that? many runners gave up during the trip,
if there were
using recumbents how many might gave up comparing to normal mountain

bikes?

Quoted message said:

why not used those sports competitions ( Tour the France! too) to show
people
what new and best in recumbent and marketing, maybe that can increase

sales

Quoted message said:

and
drop prices.

Peter Clinch said:

You don't have to convince /us/, but you *do* have to convince the UCI,
and in turn the vested interests who have nothing to gain and much to
lose if the standard upright racer suddenly becomes obsolete.

I think you need a reality check. Those vested interests could claim
the recumbent market in months if there was a market. There isn't
enough of a market for them to bother seriously. Both Trek and
Cannondale took a look and they decided that outside of mid to
high-end and low volume, there's nothing there, not at their desired
volumes.

And they are right. If I could ride a diamond frame as comfortably now
as I could at 30, I'd be riding a Sachs or Serotta for the same price
as my recumbent. Any recumbent rider that thinks that there is this
huge pent up demand for recumbents is deluding themselves. My Trek
1200 or my Bike Friday is more maneuverable and easier to manage as a
commuter than any of my three recumbents, which include both SWB and
LWB. Anything under 20 miles is usually a DF bike. Its simply easier
to use, easier to maneuver and easier where ever I arrive.

AND also FWIW, the UCI has never been about the 'sport' of bike
development. It has been about the sport of cycling. As a former racer
and USCF official, IMO that won't be improved by adding recumbents. If
it were such a big deal, someone would start mass start recumbent
racing as a major competitive event and take over the sport in
general. Won't happen.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell said:

I think you need a reality check. Those vested interests could claim
the recumbent market in months if there was a market. There isn't
enough of a market for them to bother seriously.

Because there's no exposure. But if a 'bent creamed the opposition in
Le Tour in a new Development Class then the likes of Trek wouldn't have
any of the background R&D and basic experience to make sure that rider
was on one of their bikes.

Sure, they could take over a mass market area but HPV racing runs /very/
differently to UCI style. The point of the UCI rules is to ensure that
the machines are basically all the same so it's rider vs. rider, and I
don't think that's a bad thing but I don't see why it has to be the
/only/ thing. But the UCI do, apparently.

Quoted message said:

Both Trek and
Cannondale took a look and they decided that outside of mid to
high-end and low volume, there's nothing there, not at their desired
volumes.

Again, because there's no exposure. In the UK the bike market is
dominated by sports equipment, or stuff that attempts to look like it.
If Le Tour and the Olympics had HPVs cleaning up then suddenly they'd
get a lot more popular because people would recognise as superior
sporting equipment.

Quoted message said:

And they are right. If I could ride a diamond frame as comfortably now
as I could at 30, I'd be riding a Sachs or Serotta for the same price
as my recumbent. Any recumbent rider that thinks that there is this
huge pent up demand for recumbents is deluding themselves.

People want what works best that they know about. People buy upright
road racers because they think that's the best way to go fast on a bike.
And it is in many resoects, because the best way to get faster is go
out with the local chain gang who all ride basically identical bikes
because that's what you use for racing, look, there's one just like it
on TV.

Quoted message said:

AND also FWIW, the UCI has never been about the 'sport' of bike
development. It has been about the sport of cycling. As a former racer
and USCF official, IMO that won't be improved by adding recumbents. If
it were such a big deal, someone would start mass start recumbent
racing as a major competitive event and take over the sport in
general. Won't happen.

It's a simple case of no exposure so it doesn't get bigger, and it
doesn't get bigger because there's no exposure. And so I agree with you
that the 'bent market won't suddenly blossom, but because it won't get
the exposure to start with.

As to the UCI, why they can't take a leaf out of sailing's book and have
development classes as well as one design classes, or out of swimming
and XC skiing's book where there are separate events for freestyle and
rigidly defined locomotion techniques, I really don't know. It just
means that road sports equipment has remained in a cul de sac for
decades. Compare and contrast with what happened to MTBs, which are an
order of magnitude superior as well as cheaper than they were 10 years
ago. /We/ know the UCI racer isn't the be all and end all of going fast
on two wheels under your own steam, but the great majority of riders
buying them for recreational use do not realise that! They're likely to
carry on not realising it, because there's no exposure and if there's a
little then FUD quickly obscures it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

As to the UCI, why they can't take a leaf out of sailing's book and have
development classes as well as one design classes, or out of swimming
and XC skiing's book where there are separate events for freestyle and
rigidly defined locomotion techniques, I really don't know. It just
means that road sports equipment has remained in a cul de sac for
decades. Compare and contrast with what happened to MTBs, which are an
order of magnitude superior as well as cheaper than they were 10 years
ago. /We/ know the UCI racer isn't the be all and end all of going fast
on two wheels under your own steam, but the great majority of riders
buying them for recreational use do not realise that! They're likely to
carry on not realising it, because there's no exposure and if there's a
little then FUD quickly obscures it.

Another reality check for you. Most people that ride bikes in the U.S.
can't tell you what Lance Armstrong rides, and he is one of the few
racers that they will know. They also can't identify a single mountain
bike racer, pro or otherwise. They do not buy because of what a UCI
rider is riding or a USCF rider or NORBA rider or anything remotely
resembling any of the above. And most are riding bikes by
manufacturers that also don't give a damn about racing of any kind and
support it in no way whatsoever.

Most bike riders by numbers and probably miles have little to
absolutely no interest in bike racing and it influences neither their
riding or the bike they choose. Growth is not in UCI style racing road
bikes or in mountain bikes that resemble closely anything ridden in
any NORBA class, but are in comfort bikes and general purpose MTBs.

For recumbents to chase UCI racing is to chase an irrelvancy. USCF
racing is even more irrelevant. And it won't hold up anyway. People
that hold international UCI events are not running multiple class
events to begin with. Same thing with USCF A and B. C events and below
are already trying to find time to cover all the claims on times for
lower response races, like juniors and more than one category of
women. You aren't going to get recumbent racing by trying to impose it
on the UCI or the USCF.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

You don't have to convince /us/, but you *do* have to convince the UCI,
and in turn the vested interests who have nothing to gain and much to
lose if the standard upright racer suddenly becomes obsolete.

I think you need a reality check. Those vested interests could claim
the recumbent market in months if there was a market. There isn't
enough of a market for them to bother seriously. Both Trek and
Cannondale took a look and they decided that outside of mid to
high-end and low volume, there's nothing there, not at their desired
volumes.

While I do agree the market is small I do notice (not just in the recumbent
market) that large high-volume manufacturers tend to mis-read new markets,
Trek for example created a recumbent (which I considered ungodly ugly) then
failed to even try marketing it and in the end let it die whereas Cannondale
doesn't consider what they created a recumbent and market it only slightly
more than Trek did

I would compare this to the market for computers, in the early 80's it was
fragmented by smaller companies, it took a large company like IBM to make
the personal computer into something substantial. Apple did the same thing
20 years later in the MP3 market with the Ipod

All it will take is one mainstream company to manufacture and really market
a recumbent and the doors will fly open although I kinda like being one of a
small number of recumbent riders 🙂

Quoted message said:

And they are right. If I could ride a diamond frame as comfortably now
as I could at 30, I'd be riding a Sachs or Serotta for the same price
as my recumbent. Any recumbent rider that thinks that there is this
huge pent up demand for recumbents is deluding themselves.

But thats only because few people have ever heard of a recumbent, I get told
that all the time

Quoted message said:

My Trek
1200 or my Bike Friday is more maneuverable and easier to manage as a
commuter than any of my three recumbents, which include both SWB and
LWB. Anything under 20 miles is usually a DF bike. Its simply easier
to use, easier to maneuver and easier where ever I arrive.

Maneuverable yes but I don't see a recumbent any worse or better than a DF
for commuting, my Baron doesn't do quick turns like any other bike I've
ridden but its been rare that I've ever cared

Quoted message said:

AND also FWIW, the UCI has never been about the 'sport' of bike
development. It has been about the sport of cycling. As a former racer
and USCF official, IMO that won't be improved by adding recumbents. If
it were such a big deal, someone would start mass start recumbent
racing as a major competitive event and take over the sport in
general. Won't happen.

Never say never, organizations such as that wait forever until they are
blind-sided by the obvious if the popularity of recumbents increase
substantially

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:8TCbd.364383$mD.166049@attbi_s02...
[...]

Quoted message said:

All it will take is one mainstream company to manufacture and really
market
a recumbent and the doors will fly open although I kinda like being one of
a
small number of recumbent riders 🙂

The price will have to be right though. There is no market for high priced
recumbents except for nuts like you and me and the others here on ARBR. We
are a subset of a subset. It may be, as Russell says, that there is no
market for low priced recumbents either. But we will never know for sure
until it is tried. Even the fabled Rebike was way too pricey.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Curtis L. Russell said:

Another reality check for you. Most people that ride bikes in the U.S.
can't tell you what Lance Armstrong rides, and he is one of the few
racers that they will know.

They'll know he riodes a drop bar racer, which is enough. UCI rules
basically mean that pro level bikes are more or less interchangeable.
This is not the case with F1 cars, where a Ferrari is very different
from an also-ran.

Quoted message said:

They also can't identify a single mountain
bike racer, pro or otherwise.

And nor can I, but I /do/ benefit from what they're doing if I use a MTB
because they have been sport driven to improve.

Quoted message said:

They do not buy because of what a UCI
rider is riding or a USCF rider or NORBA rider or anything remotely
resembling any of the above.

They don't buy a Trek or whatever drop var racer, but they do buy a drop
bar racer, because everyone knows that's a sports bike for going fast.

Quoted message said:

Most bike riders by numbers and probably miles have little to
absolutely no interest in bike racing and it influences neither their
riding or the bike they choose. Growth is not in UCI style racing road
bikes

There has been quite a resurgence in interest in UCI road bikes in the
UK over the last few years. 5 years ago you couldn't move in bike shops
for MTBs, now it's typical to have a £1000 racer on prominent display.
The US market may be different.

Quoted message said:

women. You aren't going to get recumbent racing by trying to impose it
on the UCI or the USCF.

Well no, but that wasn't really my point. I said that to get recumbents
racing in Le Tour you'd need to convince the UCI. And you would. I
didn't say it was going to happen.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Curtis L. Russell said:

Another reality check for you. Most people that ride bikes in the U.S.
can't tell you what Lance Armstrong rides, and he is one of the few
racers that they will know.

They'll know he riodes a drop bar racer, which is enough. UCI rules
basically mean that pro level bikes are more or less interchangeable.
This is not the case with F1 cars, where a Ferrari is very different
from an also-ran.

Quoted message said:

They also can't identify a single mountain
bike racer, pro or otherwise.

And nor can I, but I /do/ benefit from what they're doing if I use a MTB
because they have been sport driven to improve.

Quoted message said:

They do not buy because of what a UCI
rider is riding or a USCF rider or NORBA rider or anything remotely
resembling any of the above.

They don't buy a Trek or whatever drop var racer, but they do buy a drop
bar racer, because everyone knows that's a sports bike for going fast.

Quoted message said:

Most bike riders by numbers and probably miles have little to
absolutely no interest in bike racing and it influences neither their
riding or the bike they choose. Growth is not in UCI style racing road
bikes

There has been quite a resurgence in interest in UCI road bikes in the
UK over the last few years. 5 years ago you couldn't move in bike shops
for MTBs, now it's typical to have a £1000 racer on prominent display.
The US market may be different.

Quoted message said:

women. You aren't going to get recumbent racing by trying to impose it
on the UCI or the USCF.

Well no, but that wasn't really my point. I said that to get recumbents
racing in Le Tour you'd need to convince the UCI. And you would. I
didn't say it was going to happen.

Pete.

Score: Curtis L. Russell 10; Peter Clinch 0.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Curtis L. Russell said:

I think you need a reality check. Those vested interests could claim
the recumbent market in months if there was a market. There isn't
enough of a market for them to bother seriously. Both Trek and
Cannondale took a look and they decided that outside of mid to
high-end and low volume, there's nothing there, not at their desired
volumes.

I see no serious attempt here. Trek was not willing and Cannondale seems
not to be able to really step in. We still have to wait for the first
major manufacturer to take the plunge. And now look at Burley as an
example how it *could* work. They don't concentrate on recumbents, but
they seem to take it very seriously and they seem to do (and sell) well.

Quoted message said:

And they are right. If I could ride a diamond frame as comfortably now
as I could at 30, I'd be riding a Sachs or Serotta for the same price
as my recumbent. Any recumbent rider that thinks that there is this
huge pent up demand for recumbents is deluding themselves.

Please don't confuse demand and potential customers. Demand in higher
volumes doesn't come out of the plain air, it has to be created by
marketing. And given the great interest people show in recumbents, it
should be an easy task to build up a demand sufficient for mass
production of recumbents.

How many people at 40, 50, or 60 do you think want to continue or to
start cycling, but are feeling no longer really comfortable on their
uprights just like you? 5 millions? 10 millions?

How many recreational riders would be willing to ride a bike, which is
more comfortable than their so called "Comfort Bike" and gives them a
better look at the surroundings, as soon as it is as affordable as their
old bike?

People tend to buy and to ride what the others buy and ride, there is
only a small minority deliberating before buying what suits their needs
best. The rest follows the mainstream and wants to belong to the herd.
So, convince the leading sheep they have to ride recumbents to be ahead
of the game, soon the rest will follow.

Quoted message said:

My Trek 1200 or my Bike Friday is more maneuverable and easier to manage
as a commuter than any of my three recumbents, which include both SWB and
LWB. Anything under 20 miles is usually a DF bike. Its simply easier to
use, easier to maneuver and easier where ever I arrive.

That's only one aspect. Most people drive their cars to work, although
they are not easy to use, not easy to maneuver and cost a lot of money.
They feel - besides other reasons - safer and more comfortable in their
cars, and not to forget: not seldom driving gives them fun. And that's
also the main reason why most of us ride recumbents: not because they
are overly practical, it's because they are giving us fun and comfort. I
see no reason, why not a lot more people could discover this fun also -
as soon as they get the chance to give recumbents a real try and to buy
affordable models.

Quoted message said:

AND also FWIW, the UCI has never been about the 'sport' of bike
development. It has been about the sport of cycling. As a former racer
and USCF official, IMO that won't be improved by adding recumbents. If
it were such a big deal, someone would start mass start recumbent
racing as a major competitive event and take over the sport in
general. Won't happen.

Of course, also the UCI goes where the money goes. If or when recumbents
become an economical factor, there will soon be races, rules and
officials, willing to regulate and to organize. It will happen, but not
soon and not from one day to the other. We are standing just at the
beginning and I see a very long way before us.

Kurt

"Kurt Fischer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Curtis L. Russell said:

I think you need a reality check. Those vested interests could claim
the recumbent market in months if there was a market. There isn't
enough of a market for them to bother seriously. Both Trek and
Cannondale took a look and they decided that outside of mid to
high-end and low volume, there's nothing there, not at their desired
volumes.

I see no serious attempt here. Trek was not willing and Cannondale seems
not to be able to really step in. We still have to wait for the first
major manufacturer to take the plunge. And now look at Burley as an
example how it *could* work. They don't concentrate on recumbents, but
they seem to take it very seriously and they seem to do (and sell) well.

Burley is a very interesting bicycle company and they are putting out a
range of recumbents at fair prices, but still a bit high priced. Frankly, I
like their designs and I do not understand why their bikes are not getting
better reviews. It may be that their seat is just not comfortable enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And they are right. If I could ride a diamond frame as comfortably now
as I could at 30, I'd be riding a Sachs or Serotta for the same price
as my recumbent. Any recumbent rider that thinks that there is this
huge pent up demand for recumbents is deluding themselves.

Please don't confuse demand and potential customers. Demand in higher
volumes doesn't come out of the plain air, it has to be created by
marketing. And given the great interest people show in recumbents, it
should be an easy task to build up a demand sufficient for mass
production of recumbents.

Yes, it seems like what you say should be true, yet it never pans out. There
is a catcher in the rye here someplace.

Quoted message said:

How many people at 40, 50, or 60 do you think want to continue or to
start cycling, but are feeling no longer really comfortable on their
uprights just like you? 5 millions? 10 millions?

I think what happens is that middle age people lose all interest in cycling
due to other pressures in their lives. It has always been only the very
young and the old (but not very old) who are interested in bikes. By the
way, you are old when you over 55. The ideal market for recumbents would
seem to be those who are getting old and near retirement. They have more
time for cycling and they are starting to worry about their health.

Quoted message said:

How many recreational riders would be willing to ride a bike, which is
more comfortable than their so called "Comfort Bike" and gives them a
better look at the surroundings, as soon as it is as affordable as their
old bike?

People tend to buy and to ride what the others buy and ride, there is
only a small minority deliberating before buying what suits their needs
best. The rest follows the mainstream and wants to belong to the herd.
So, convince the leading sheep they have to ride recumbents to be ahead
of the game, soon the rest will follow.

Kurt, I have been riding my recumbents around town here for the past 25
years. Everyone has noticed me and hundreds have approached me to ask about
them. But no one has ever gotten one. I have pretty much concluded that most
folks do not really want to ride any kind of a bicycle, let alone a
recumbent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My Trek 1200 or my Bike Friday is more maneuverable and easier to manage
as a commuter than any of my three recumbents, which include both SWB and
LWB. Anything under 20 miles is usually a DF bike. Its simply easier to
use, easier to maneuver and easier where ever I arrive.

That's only one aspect. Most people drive their cars to work, although
they are not easy to use, not easy to maneuver and cost a lot of money.
They feel - besides other reasons - safer and more comfortable in their
cars, and not to forget: not seldom driving gives them fun. And that's
also the main reason why most of us ride recumbents: not because they
are overly practical, it's because they are giving us fun and comfort. I
see no reason, why not a lot more people could discover this fun also -
as soon as they get the chance to give recumbents a real try and to buy
affordable models.

Most people's idea of fun does not include cycling, recumbents or otherwise.
The main reason I cycle is because it is just plain fun. I really do not do
it for any other reason. But we belong to a very small minority and I don't
think there is anything that can be done about it. You can lead a horse to
water, but you can't make it drink.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AND also FWIW, the UCI has never been about the 'sport' of bike
development. It has been about the sport of cycling. As a former racer
and USCF official, IMO that won't be improved by adding recumbents. If
it were such a big deal, someone would start mass start recumbent
racing as a major competitive event and take over the sport in
general. Won't happen.

Of course, also the UCI goes where the money goes. If or when recumbents
become an economical factor, there will soon be races, rules and
officials, willing to regulate and to organize. It will happen, but not
soon and not from one day to the other. We are standing just at the
beginning and I see a very long way before us.

You present the same old arguments which make sense, but I do not ever see
it happening. I come down on the side of Russell in this debate about the
future of bicycles and recumbents. Everyone I know without exception has
absolutely no interest in bicycles. They think I am a most peculiar person
to love bicycles so.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

"Kurt Fischer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Burley is a very interesting bicycle company and they are putting out a
range of recumbents at fair prices, but still a bit high priced. Frankly, I
like their designs and I do not understand why their bikes are not getting
better reviews. It may be that their seat is just not comfortable enough.

Over at Bentrideronline Burley models, and especially the Koosah and
Jett Creek, are very well reputed and highly praised, especially as
recumbents for beginners. The Koosah has even been elected recumbent of
the year by readers and editor of BROL.

Incidentally I heard today that a German dealer now starts to sell
Burleys, 'bents and Tandems. If the prices are not significantly higher
than in America, they probably will sell well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please don't confuse demand and potential customers. Demand in higher
volumes doesn't come out of the plain air, it has to be created by
marketing. And given the great interest people show in recumbents, it
should be an easy task to build up a demand sufficient for mass
production of recumbents.

Yes, it seems like what you say should be true, yet it never pans out. There
is a catcher in the rye here someplace.

Very true. I really see no recumbent revolution in short time, more kind
of a step by step evolution on the longer run. "Little strokes fell big
oaks." ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How many people at 40, 50, or 60 do you think want to continue or to
start cycling, but are feeling no longer really comfortable on their
uprights just like you? 5 millions? 10 millions?

I think what happens is that middle age people lose all interest in cycling
due to other pressures in their lives. It has always been only the very
young and the old (but not very old) who are interested in bikes. By the
way, you are old when you over 55. The ideal market for recumbents would
seem to be those who are getting old and near retirement. They have more
time for cycling and they are starting to worry about their health.

Yes, that's one major target group, but there are others. In Europe
recumbents attract more and more the younger "go fast"-crowd.
Challenge's new SL-line aims exactly at this group - as do several other
lowracers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, convince the leading sheep they have to ride recumbents to be ahead
of the game, soon the rest will follow.

Kurt, I have been riding my recumbents around town here for the past 25
years. Everyone has noticed me and hundreds have approached me to ask about
them. But no one has ever gotten one. I have pretty much concluded that most
folks do not really want to ride any kind of a bicycle, let alone a
recumbent.

In this case our experiences differ a lot. I'm riding now for 14 years,
and I don't know the exact number, but I've infected several people with
the virus, mostly by riding around and answering questions. In our
region recumbents don't cause that much attention anymore, they are
regularly seen on the roads and even little children know the term
"Liegerad". But in order to get one you still have to go to a special
bike shop and to pay a relatively high price in comparison to equally
equipped uprights.

Quoted message said:

Most people's idea of fun does not include cycling, recumbents or otherwise.
The main reason I cycle is because it is just plain fun. I really do not do
it for any other reason. But we belong to a very small minority and I don't
think there is anything that can be done about it. You can lead a horse to
water, but you can't make it drink.

I doubt if this minority is as small as you believe. In the last 30
years cycling for sport and recreation has increased by a big margin
over here, and still more and more people are discovering this activity.
But I think it is important they do it by their free will. Someone who
is forced to ride a bicycle - e.g. because he can't afford a car anymore
- will hardly grow a love to cycling and tends to do it with a bitter
feeling.

But ride around with a big grin on your face, enjoy yourself and your
bike... and others will follow - at least in my experience.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, also the UCI goes where the money goes. If or when recumbents
become an economical factor, there will soon be races, rules and
officials, willing to regulate and to organize. It will happen, but not
soon and not from one day to the other. We are standing just at the
beginning and I see a very long way before us.

You present the same old arguments which make sense, but I do not ever see
it happening. I come down on the side of Russell in this debate about the
future of bicycles and recumbents. Everyone I know without exception has
absolutely no interest in bicycles. They think I am a most peculiar person
to love bicycles so.

I know you don't care much for Bentrideronline, but let's just take it
as an example for the rapidly increasing interest in recumbents. About
four years ago Bryan started this site, meanwhile he is planning to do
it as a full-time job and has already several writers in his staff. The
number of members is increasing daily, and a lot of newbies show up
searching for advice.
The same is true for the SPEZI in Germersheim, a show for special
purpose bicycles. From year to year more visitors and exhibitors can be
seen, ten years ago nobody would have believed that.

Kurt

"Kurt Fischer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think what happens is that middle age people lose all interest in
cycling
due to other pressures in their lives. It has always been only the very
young and the old (but not very old) who are interested in bikes. By the
way, you are old when you over 55. The ideal market for recumbents would
seem to be those who are getting old and near retirement. They have more
time for cycling and they are starting to worry about their health.

Yes, that's one major target group, but there are others. In Europe
recumbents attract more and more the younger "go fast"-crowd.
Challenge's new SL-line aims exactly at this group - as do several other
lowracers.

When I was growing up Europeans had the attraction for me as being more
hardy than us Americans. Finally when I got to Europe (in the 50's) I
realized the hardiness was due to poorness and that they were hell bent on
getting as much like us Americans as fast as possible.

The go-fast crowd (low racers) will always be a very small minority They are
essentially into cycling more for the sport than anything else.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Most people's idea of fun does not include cycling, recumbents or
otherwise.
The main reason I cycle is because it is just plain fun. I really do not
do
it for any other reason. But we belong to a very small minority and I
don't
think there is anything that can be done about it. You can lead a horse
to
water, but you can't make it drink.

I doubt if this minority is as small as you believe. In the last 30
years cycling for sport and recreation has increased by a big margin
over here, and still more and more people are discovering this activity.
But I think it is important they do it by their free will. Someone who
is forced to ride a bicycle - e.g. because he can't afford a car anymore
- will hardly grow a love to cycling and tends to do it with a bitter
feeling.

I have noticed that there are some who get into cycling but after a year or
two they drop out. Apparently, the fun factor is just not there for them. On
the other hand, this town is filling up with young Hispanic men, recent
emigrants to this area, who are on bicycles, but that is because they have
lost their driver's license due to drunken driving. None of them will ever
take to cycling. They love their new cars more than life itself.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You present the same old arguments which make sense, but I do not ever
see
it happening. I come down on the side of Russell in this debate about the
future of bicycles and recumbents. Everyone I know without exception has
absolutely no interest in bicycles. They think I am a most peculiar
person
to love bicycles so.

I know you don't care much for Bentrideronline, but let's just take it
as an example for the rapidly increasing interest in recumbents. About
four years ago Bryan started this site, meanwhile he is planning to do
it as a full-time job and has already several writers in his staff. The
number of members is increasing daily, and a lot of newbies show up
searching for advice.

Bryan should be paying me a recruiting fee for his BROL club as I am partly
responsible for sending him so many new members. But they will eventually
show up here on ARBR when they want some intellectual stimulation.

Mr. Ball and Larry Varney would never let me get anywhere near BROL. They
think I am too contentious and disagreeable. Where on earth did they ever
get that idea, I wonder? I think Robert Bryant of RCN may have a better fix
on whether or not recumbents are increasing or not as he has been at it for
a very long time now.

Quoted message said:

The same is true for the SPEZI in Germersheim, a show for special
purpose bicycles. From year to year more visitors and exhibitors can be
seen, ten years ago nobody would have believed that.

I think the growth is mostly waxing and waning and that there is never any
overall growth to any of this. But you are younger than I am and therefore
more full of hope. I am in my dotage and I relish nothing but doom and
gloom.

--
Best Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

"Kurt Fischer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, that's one major target group, but there are others. In Europe
recumbents attract more and more the younger "go fast"-crowd.
Challenge's new SL-line aims exactly at this group - as do several other
lowracers.

When I was growing up Europeans had the attraction for me as being more
hardy than us Americans. Finally when I got to Europe (in the 50's) I
realized the hardiness was due to poorness and that they were hell bent on
getting as much like us Americans as fast as possible.

Yes, and it still holds true to a certain degree. I've considered
Germany always as America's little brother trying to imitate his idol.
That's why I believe recumbents won't go mainstream in Germany until
they do in USA - with a delay of perhaps a year or two. ;-)

On the other hand hardly anyone in Germany cares what happens in the
Netherlands, the leader of recumbency in Europe.

Quoted message said:

The go-fast crowd (low racers) will always be a very small minority They are
essentially into cycling more for the sport than anything else.
[...]

True, but success in racing is important for image and publicity of a
manufacturer. That's why Ferrari spends zillions of dollars in formula
one although those cars are not allowed on the roads. There are a lot
more race bikes sold than there are actual racers. People buy a name; if
they can't be a winner like Armstrong or Schuhmacher, they want at least
possess his bike, his car, whatever...

Quoted message said:

I have noticed that there are some who get into cycling but after a year or
two they drop out. Apparently, the fun factor is just not there for them. On
the other hand, this town is filling up with young Hispanic men, recent
emigrants to this area, who are on bicycles, but that is because they have
lost their driver's license due to drunken driving. None of them will ever
take to cycling. They love their new cars more than life itself.
[...]

Yes, that's mainly a matter of age, intelligence, social status, gender,
etc... But our populations are growing older and the majority is over
40. There are millions of potential recumbent riders in Germany, in
America even more, more than enough to feed several manufacturers. But
people have to be convinced to buy a recumbent and that costs al lot of
money - more money than a small manufacturer can afford.

Quoted message said:

...I think Robert Bryant of RCN may have a better fix on whether or not
recumbents are increasing or not as he has been at it for a very long time
now.

I'm sure he will at least confirm the growing number of manufacturers
and models, as he is doing the reviews. When I started to ride
recumbents there was exactly _one_ major manufacturer in Germany -
Radius - producing two very similar LWB's and a very small number of the
one and only in Germany available (delta) trike. 15 years ago a beginner
had a very hard time to find a 'bent for a test ride, today he has an
even harder time to choose between all of the available models and
options.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The same is true for the SPEZI in Germersheim, a show for special
purpose bicycles. From year to year more visitors and exhibitors can be
seen, ten years ago nobody would have believed that.

I think the growth is mostly waxing and waning and that there is never any
overall growth to any of this. But you are younger than I am and therefore
more full of hope. I am in my dotage and I relish nothing but doom and
gloom.

Actually I don't hope much anymore, as I don't think it makes any
difference if recumbents go mainstream or not. I'm sure it will happen
sooner or later, as soon as the critical mass is reached, a big
manufacturer steps in, does a serious marketing and offers a low priced
beginner's model.

But that's all, nothing more will happen. I don't see the old "human
power"-dream come true. Recumbents won't "save the world", they won't
replace cars, more likely will they replace uprights and toys like
skateboards or inline skates. And people will not drive less, they will
drive more and buy bigger cars to haul around their beloved recumbents.
;-)

Of course I may be completely wrong, but I don't believe the world will
become a better place via recumbents. Okay, perhaps a place a bit more
comfortable and relaxed, and that's not bad for a beginning. ;-)

Kurt

Edward Dolan said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Curtis L. Russell said:

Another reality check for you. Most people that ride bikes in the U.S.
can't tell you what Lance Armstrong rides, and he is one of the few
racers that they will know.

They'll know he riodes a drop bar racer, which is enough. UCI rules
basically mean that pro level bikes are more or less interchangeable.
This is not the case with F1 cars, where a Ferrari is very different
from an also-ran.

Quoted message said:

They also can't identify a single mountain
bike racer, pro or otherwise.

And nor can I, but I /do/ benefit from what they're doing if I use a MTB
because they have been sport driven to improve.

Quoted message said:

They do not buy because of what a UCI
rider is riding or a USCF rider or NORBA rider or anything remotely
resembling any of the above.

They don't buy a Trek or whatever drop var racer, but they do buy a drop
bar racer, because everyone knows that's a sports bike for going fast.

Quoted message said:

Most bike riders by numbers and probably miles have little to
absolutely no interest in bike racing and it influences neither their
riding or the bike they choose. Growth is not in UCI style racing road
bikes

There has been quite a resurgence in interest in UCI road bikes in the
UK over the last few years. 5 years ago you couldn't move in bike shops
for MTBs, now it's typical to have a ?1000 racer on prominent display.
The US market may be different.

Quoted message said:

women. You aren't going to get recumbent racing by trying to impose it
on the UCI or the USCF.

Well no, but that wasn't really my point. I said that to get recumbents
racing in Le Tour you'd need to convince the UCI. And you would. I
didn't say it was going to happen.

Pete.

Score: Curtis L. Russell 10; Peter Clinch 0.

Hey Ed,

Your post makes it appear that you wrote what is actually quoted
material authored by Peter Clinch. Check your newsreader settings.

--
Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon and Pedant

Edward Dolan said:

...Even the fabled Rebike was way too pricey.

And way too heavy, and way too ugly.

--
Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon and Pedant

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[...]

Quoted message said:

Hey Ed,

Your post makes it appear that you wrote what is actually quoted material
authored by Peter Clinch. Check your newsreader settings.

I noted that too. I think the fault is at Peter Clinch's end, not mine. I
have not changed my settings ever and they work like how they are suppose to
work with all my other posts. I will have to keep on eye on this as I am a
stickler for correctness - as you well know.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

...Even the fabled Rebike was way too pricey.

And way too heavy, and way too ugly.

Yes, it was heavy and the seat (a tractor style) was nothing but sheer
torture. Beauty of course is in the eye of the beholder. But it was a
valiant attempt to make a cheap recumbent. I give them some credit for that.
The main problem with it though is it was not cheap enough. It was the
equivalent of a Huffy, but the price was not. Too bad. A cheap recumbent has
yet to be made.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Kurt Fischer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

"Kurt Fischer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I was growing up Europeans had the attraction for me as being more
hardy than us Americans. Finally when I got to Europe (in the 50's) I
realized the hardiness was due to poorness and that they were hell bent
on
getting as much like us Americans as fast as possible.

Yes, and it still holds true to a certain degree. I've considered
Germany always as America's little brother trying to imitate his idol.
That's why I believe recumbents won't go mainstream in Germany until
they do in USA - with a delay of perhaps a year or two. ;-)

Kurt, Minnesota was settled by my more folks from Germany than any other
European country, although it has the reputation as being settled mostly by
Scandinavians. When I was last in Germany I thought I was back in Minnesota.
The Germans look exactly like the people here in Minnesota where I have
lived all of my life. In fact, the Germans look more like my idea of
Americans than do most other parts of the US.

The wars of the past century, WW I and WW II, were essentially European
civil wars and should never have been fought. The West nearly destroyed
itself. If those wars could have been avoided, the world civilization would
now be Western Civilization and the Arab Muslims would be regarded as the
equivalent of the stone age inhabitants of New Guinea. Well, this is what
you do when you get old - you think about what could have been.

--
Best Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota