Power Agent 7?

Steelhead said:

Probably not. You will probably have to purchase the USB harness from Saris, but contact them and ask. According to Saris you will also need OS 10.4, but in theory, it should work on earlier versions as long as you have the current Java console installed.

Thats what I am using, the Keyspan serial adapter. It DL's just with the oddities I have mentioned.

rayhuang said:

Thats what I am using, the Keyspan serial adapter. It DL's just with the oddities I have mentioned.

Theoretically the Keyspan adapter could work. The key will be getting your PowerTap to appear as a plain serial device (COM XX for Windows). It sounds like you've gotten that far, but the chances of the Keyspan converter mutating just the timestamps on your data is pretty slim. Just out of curiosity, what is your PowerTap's date set to (as read from the CPU's setup menu #1)?

Steelhead said:

Probably not. You will probably have to purchase the USB harness from Saris, but contact them and ask. According to Saris you will also need OS 10.4, but in theory, it should work on earlier versions as long as you have the current Java console installed.

In theory the Keyspan converter should work. The key will be to make your PowerTap appear as a plain serial device (COM XX on Windows). The software is smart enough to deal with hardware/software echos (or the absense of).

As far as the Keyspan adapter seeking out and mutating powertap timestamps, this seems unlikely. If you are experiencing this, check the date on your powertap (setup menu #1).

Steelhead is right about Saris' requisite for MacOS 10.4, the real dependency is for Java 1.5, which Apple has not released OS's older than 10.4. If anyone ports a 1.5 JRE to an older MacOS let me know. Also, Saris' new installer package bundles the USB drivers and combines everything into a single reboot. It also installs a script in "MacHD/Library/Scripts/PowerAgent Scripts" that additional users can run so they can share a single installation--all data is still kept private. User's data is actually stored in a folder under their Home folder, ~/.poweragent/repository to be precise. The data isn't human-readable, but I still like to take a backup every now and again.

lanceniles said:

User's data is actually stored in a folder under their Home folder, ~/.poweragent/repository to be precise. The data isn't human-readable, but I still like to take a backup every now and again.

I'm not finding this folder. Can you tell me what version you're running? 7.0.1?

thanks for the review Steelhead,

i'm one of those that went the VPC/WKO+ route.. WKO+ is absolutely the only thing i use VPC for... and i know what you're saying, it sucks but WKO+ a really good product.. not perfect but probably the best out there... but this combo works farily well. opening VPC is kinda like opening the app since it restore the way you left it and i just keep it with WKO+ open and full screen.

but i know where you're coming from, i would actually go for less functionality (within reason) if i didn't have to look at windows... no offence to windows users... just my preference.

i was using iSMARTtrain (mac native software) until i got a powerTap and was forced to do the switch to VPC/cyclingPeak since they didn't support the powerTap.. they (Stuart to be specific) have started support, but it's kinda moving along at a snails pace so i haven't looked to see where it's at (no direct download into the product the last time i checked)... their product has some nice features and does some things in a better way than WKO+ but it's just not as powerful and flexible in many ways and doesn't really support power properly...

i'll give PowerAgent 7 a peep though..

It's a hard choice. I'm still using WKO+ 14-day trial, but this time of year I don't think I'll get enough rides in to give it an adequate evaluation. I think it probably becomes more amd more useful as you become more sophisticated in self-coaching. But running it in VPC on my TiBook is a real drag. . . It's slow and hard on the eyes. . . maybe (wayyyy) later when I get an intel based Powerbook.

Re: PowerAgent 7, I'm still trying to figure out where the user ride data is stored. . . that's a confusing issue at this point. There seems to be conflicting information on that. I've noticed that their 7.0.1 patch is gone and 7.0.0 is back up on their site with apparently a combined USB driver install again, as well as a user data folder [see previous lanceniles post]. I have a query into Saris about that, but no answer yet.

Have you tried the freeware app Golden Cheetah? It actually works better than both. Only problem is that it has only four features so far: data readout; data smoothing; data selection [i.e. power, heart, cadence, and speed] and a Critical Power graph that's very nice. It's an open source project written in C by an MIT student in his spare time. The kid's a racer and very smart, and plans to add more features. I had very high hopes for it, but he's been MIA since Labor Day. The ride summary shows a lower average ride wattage than WKO, which I'm assuming is because it includes non-active ride data in it's calculation. I still use it though, because it has a nice clean display on the screen (his graphs incorporate gnuplot, another open source project that has a great deal of sophistication if you have the time to work it into the GUI). One key thing it lacks is export to WKO, but someone could probably write a utility to convert the GoldenCheetah raw files. Here's the link, in case you're interested:

http://goldencheetah.org/

doctorSpoc said:

thanks for the review Steelhead,

i'm one of those that went the VPC/WKO+ route.. WKO+ is absolutely the only thing i use VPC for... and i know what you're saying, it sucks but WKO+ a really good product.. not perfect but probably the best out there... but this combo works farily well. opening VPC is kinda like opening the app since it restore the way you left it and i just keep it with WKO+ open and full screen.

but i know where you're coming from, i would actually go for less functionality (within reason) if i didn't have to look at windows... no offence to windows users... just my preference.

i was using iSMARTtrain (mac native software) until i got a powerTap and was forced to do the switch to VPC/cyclingPeak since they didn't support the powerTap.. they (Stuart to be specific) have started support, but it's kinda moving along at a snails pace so i haven't looked to see where it's at (no direct download into the product the last time i checked)... their product has some nice features and does some things in a better way than WKO+ but it's just not as powerful and flexible in many ways and doesn't really support power properly...

i'll give PowerAgent 7 a peep though..

Steelhead said:

I'm not finding this folder. Can you tell me what version you're running? 7.0.1?

Which folder are you referring to? The "/Library/Scripts/PowerAgent Scripts" was added with Saris' latest installer package. The ~/.poweragent/repository folder has always existed--remember Folders that start with a "." are hidden by default in Finder.

The deal with the version numbers is a little confusing. There is, or at least should be, only 7.0.0. Saris chose not to increment the version number when they put the patch in place for the latest FTDI drivers. If for some reason you see a 7.0.1 it must have been a mistake, does it really say 7.0.1 (as read from Help -- About)?

For a short their installer unzipped to a folder with the name: poweragent7.0.1.0-macosx_all This is the installer I used. Now it appears to unzip into a disk image that reads 7.0. The application does indeed say
7.0 in the about window.

Can you tell me the method for unhiding and backing up the hidden folder? Must you use Terminal? Thanks in advance.

lanceniles said:

Which folder are you referring to? The "/Library/Scripts/PowerAgent Scripts" was added with Saris' latest installer package. The ~/.poweragent/repository folder has always existed--remember Folders that start with a "." are hidden by default in Finder.

The deal with the version numbers is a little confusing. There is, or at least should be, only 7.0.0. Saris chose not to increment the version number when they put the patch in place for the latest FTDI drivers. If for some reason you see a 7.0.1 it must have been a mistake, does it really say 7.0.1 (as read from Help -- About)?

Steelhead said:

It's a hard choice. I'm still using WKO+ 14-day trial, but this time of year I don't think I'll get enough rides in to give it an adequate evaluation. I think it probably becomes more amd more useful as you become more sophisticated in self-coaching. But running it in VPC on my TiBook is a real drag. . . It's slow and hard on the eyes. . . maybe (wayyyy) later when I get an intel based Powerbook.

Re: PowerAgent 7, I'm still trying to figure out where the user ride data is stored. . . that's a confusing issue at this point. There seems to be conflicting information on that. I've noticed that their 7.0.1 patch is gone and 7.0.0 is back up on their site with apparently a combined USB driver install again, as well as a user data folder [see previous lanceniles post]. I have a query into Saris about that, but no answer yet.

Have you tried the freeware app Golden Cheetah? It actually works better than both. Only problem is that it has only four features so far: data readout; data smoothing; data selection [i.e. power, heart, cadence, and speed] and a Critical Power graph that's very nice. It's an open source project written in C by an MIT student in his spare time. The kid's a racer and very smart, and plans to add more features. I had very high hopes for it, but he's been MIA since Labor Day. The ride summary shows a lower average ride wattage than WKO, which I'm assuming is because it includes non-active ride data in it's calculation. I still use it though, because it has a nice clean display on the screen (his graphs incorporate gnuplot, another open source project that has a great deal of sophistication if you have the time to work it into the GUI). One key thing it lacks is export to WKO, but someone could probably write a utility to convert the GoldenCheetah raw files. Here's the link, in case you're interested:

goldencheetah.orggoldencheetah.orgOpen ↗

i'll give it a look too but... the thing i think that WKO+ does better than other product is the analysis over time, weeks, months, season or any period of your choosing... something that if you've not played with if for a while you really haven't seen the value of yet.. this is the big deal, actually it's a HUGE deal if you're self coaching... you need to see where your training is going right and wrong and where you are in your training.

and now with the performance management stuff.. well WKO+ pretty much trumps everything else on the market... when i got WKO+ and loaded up this graph i had to look over my sholder to see where the camera was because the graph, right out ot the box showed me retrospectively where i was overtrained, where i had my best performances of the year, everything... it was like someone was watching me all year... literally like magic. it's like having your own personal trainer giving you feedback on how your training is going... for instance looking back at last season i know that my recovery between macrocyles wasn't enough.. it wasn't until i took a week completely off (i was forced to, it wasn't planned) did i really show huge improvements in performance and the performance manager acurately demonstrated this would happen... like i said it's like magic... dr. coggan and the CyclingPeaks guys need to get some kind of award for this feature... it's really quite amazing. even though you know what you should be doing, having a graph in front of you telling you: HEY DUMBY! this is why you are sucking right now or riding really well right now just drives the point home and somewhat takes the guessing out of why your fitness is the way it is at the current point of time... you see visually that you are going to suck for this build but you know that after you do your taper it's all going to come together... seeing this in a graph just makes it so obvious.

the real power if WKO+ is this multi-day analysis, not just the per ride type analysis, which is important but not IMHO the most important sort of analysis if you want to improve.

Steelhead said:

... Can you tell me the method for unhiding and backing up the hidden folder? Must you use Terminal? Thanks in advance.

I use terminal, but I'm a Linux guy. I did enable Finder to show all files, but turned it back off because it tended to clutter the Finder windows. If you fire up a Terminal there is a simple command you can execute to enable/disable Finder showing all files.

To show all files:

[font=Fixedsys] > defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles TRUE[/font]

To NOT show all files:

[font=Fixedsys] > defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles FALSE[/font]

You will need to restart all of your Finder sessions for the change to take effect. Another Terminal command will take care of that.

[font=Fixedsys] > killall Finder[/font]

Cheers

Thanks. . . kind of convoluted compared to just dragging folder to a backup volume, but only for a life-long GUI idiot like me, I guess. . .

lanceniles said:

I use terminal, but I'm a Linux guy. I did enable Finder to show all files, but turned it back off because it tended to clutter the Finder windows. If you fire up a Terminal there is a simple command you can execute to enable/disable Finder showing all files.

To show all files:

[font=Fixedsys] > defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles TRUE[/font]

To NOT show all files:

[font=Fixedsys] > defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles FALSE[/font]

You will need to restart all of your Finder sessions for the change to take effect. Another Terminal command will take care of that.

[font=Fixedsys] > killall Finder[/font]

Cheers

Steelhead said:

Thanks. . . kind of convoluted compared to just dragging folder to a backup volume, but only for a life-long GUI idiot like me, I guess. . .

Maybe Saris will include a backup script in a subsequent installer. 😉

uh-oh, after reading your post several times to decipher your meaning, I starting to reevaluate that strong aversion to Windows. I've had a PowerTap wheel only since August, and I can see myself falling into the abyss already. :eek: Thanks for your comments.

doctorSpoc said:

i'll give it a look too but... the thing i think that WKO+ does better than other product is the analysis over time, weeks, months, season or any period of your choosing... something that if you've not played with if for a while you really haven't seen the value of yet.. this is the big deal, actually it's a HUGE deal if you're self coaching... you need to see where your training is going right and wrong and where you are in your training.

and now with the performance management stuff.. well WKO+ pretty much trumps everything else on the market... when i got WKO+ and loaded up this graph i had to look over my sholder to see where the camera was because the graph, right out ot the box showed me retrospectively where i was overtrained, where i had my best performances of the year, everything... it was like someone was watching me all year... literally like magic. it's like having your own personal trainer giving you feedback on how your training is going... for instance looking back at last season i know that my recovery between macrocyles wasn't enough.. it wasn't until i took a week completely off (i was forced to, it wasn't planned) did i really show huge improvements in performance and the performance manager acurately demonstrated this would happen... like i said it's like magic... dr. coggan and the CyclingPeaks guys need to get some kind of award for this feature... it's really quite amazing. even though you know what you should be doing, having a graph in front of you telling you: HEY DUMBY! this is why you are sucking right now or riding really well right now just drives the point home and somewhat takes the guessing out of why your fitness is the way it is at the current point of time... you see visually that you are going to suck for this build but you know that after you do your taper it's all going to come together... seeing this in a graph just makes it so obvious.

the real power if WKO+ is this multi-day analysis, not just the per ride type analysis, which is important but not IMHO the most important sort of analysis if you want to improve.

Would be very nice! One workaround would be to export to .csv files.

lanceniles said:

Maybe Saris will include a backup script in a subsequent installer. 😉

Steelhead said:

uh-oh, after reading your post several times to decipher your meaning, I starting to reevaluate that strong aversion to Windows. I've had a PowerTap wheel only since August, and I can see myself falling into the abyss already. :eek: Thanks for your comments.

sorry for the pathetic explaination... but the deal is that until someone implements something better or similar to the performance manager feature/graph in WKO+ i can't really see myself making the switch, even with its windows only implementation, it's such powerful analysis tool... i just hold my nose and open VPC... again, apologies to windows users.

My graphs are coming out looking odd. I know for sure that 3-1 minute efforts were at a 600 watt peak, about 430 for the first 30 seconds and then up above 460 watts till about 50 seconds when I withered to about 420 watts or lower.

But the graph looks like a point in the middle. See picture please.

I am also still having to download from the computer 3 or 4 more times to get the "save" window to pop up. I guess I am singing to the chorus here-eh?

Anyways-any idea why the strange looking power curve? All the other files I have DL reflect more closely my actual rides or intervals.

rayhuang said:

... any idea why the strange looking power curve? All the other files I have DL reflect more closely my actual rides or intervals.

This looks like a data smoothing/sampling problem. PowerAgent 7 has a built-in sampling rate of 10 records. Usually this equates to 12.5 seconds (assuming the PowerTap is set up for 1[.26] second recording). If your PowerTap is setup for 2[.54] second recording the effective sampling is about 25.5 seconds, and so on.

lanceniles said:

This looks like a data smoothing/sampling problem. PowerAgent 7 has a built-in sampling rate of 10 records. Usually this equates to 12.5 seconds (assuming the PowerTap is set up for 1[.26] second recording). If your PowerTap is setup for 2[.54] second recording the effective sampling is about 25.5 seconds, and so on.

I want to give Power agent 7 a fair shake. And at least understand it enough to explain it to somebody else. I am a firm believer in WKO+.

How do you change the sampling rate?

Heck I can't even figure out how save a background change😕

jetnjeff said:

... How do you change the sampling rate?

Can't. It was predetermined by us Saris to be a compromise of quality and performance. I tend to think that these decisions are best left to the people using the software--as preferences or settings. Good software should empower the user to see what they want and how they want it, while providing sensible defaults. Be vocal about what you like, don't like or can't find--you might be more influential than you think.

You can't really compare PowerAgent 7 to WKO+. WKO is a far more sophisticated commercial application with a full set of analytical tools that cost a hundred bucks and requires Windows. PowerAgent should be more accurately described as a utility that works on all platforms, has a very limited set of analytical tools and is distributed free (to PowerTap users of course).

The main reason I started this thread was to inform Mac users that at least now there's a way to work with their PowerTap files natively on the Mac without the extra trouble and expense of purchasing either Windows or Wintel computers. For some Mac Users, PowerAgent might suffice, especially for the first few months when they're getting to understand how power works. Others who want a full suite of tools will likely pony up the extra time and cash and purchase Windows and WKO+.

Re: the sampling: for now their sampling rate is built in. Can't be changed. It would indeed be a lot more useful (especially for interval selection) if they included all samples in a ride.

I'm not sure what you mean by "background change."

jetnjeff said:

I want to give Power agent 7 a fair shake. And at least understand it enough to explain it to somebody else. I am a firm believer in WKO+.

How do you change the sampling rate?

Heck I can't even figure out how save a background change😕