Playing with PMC constants

tbowren said:

Basically with the 42 / 7 time constants given it says I should ride my butt off for the next 7 days and then do NOTHING else for 14 days. Something tells me if I do that I may have great strength on the 18th, but my ability to handle a sustained elevated heart rate will be very bad.

What makes you think that? That would drop CTL drastically....no bueno.

tbowren said:

Are there any observed numbers that correlate better with Vo2Max vs 20CP vs 90+ FTP? It would be nice to see 2 separate TSB's in the graph with different constants to see how the different systems peak and decay at the same time.

The general consensus seems to be that the shorter the event, the more you should sacrifice some CTL for a high TSB.

whoawhoa said:

What makes you think that? That would drop CTL drastically....no bueno.

Well I understand there is more to being "fit" than just having a high TSB, but I was just putting in different "fake" TSS workouts into the system to see what I could get the TSB curve to do. Thats when I noticed that the TSB seems to always peak around 14 days.

That got me to thinking about how the different energy systems would be effected with 2 weeks of no riding. Especially since TSS doesn't know how hard I rode.

I remember RD saying the FTP takes along time to raise but lasts a while, where as Vo2Max can raise more quickly but will max out and decay rapidly.

I have read that most tapering "theories" prescribe lower volume and high intensity for the 2 (or so ) weeks before an event. This is what I plan to do, I'm just trying to learn the PMC as best I can.

tbowren said:

Well I understand there is more to being "fit" than just having a high TSB, but I was just putting in different "fake" TSS workouts into the system to see what I could get the TSB curve to do. Thats when I noticed that the TSB seems to always peak around 14 days.

That got me to thinking about how the different energy systems would be effected with 2 weeks of no riding. Especially since TSS doesn't know how hard I rode.

I remember RD saying the FTP takes along time to raise but lasts a while, where as Vo2Max can raise more quickly but will max out and decay rapidly.

I have read that most tapering "theories" prescribe lower volume and high intensity for the 2 (or so ) weeks before an event. This is what I plan to do, I'm just trying to learn the PMC as best I can.

Just one comment: That ramp rate is gonna be a killer...

I think you will want 2 weeks off if you push your body through that...

Jim

otb4evr said:

Just one comment: That ramp rate is gonna be a killer...

I think you will want 2 weeks off if you push your body through that...

Jim

Ya I was so preocupied by "what can I get this curve to do" that I didn't think about "could I even do that". Strange thing is that I went back and cut in half the TSS numbers of all the "upcoming" workouts and I get almost exactly the same result. TSB is only 1 point lower and the peak is still the same timeframe out.

I understand that this little curve is not the all knowing ultimate predictor of how the race will go. Maybe one needs to collect data for a while and view the graph to see how it got it right in the past before you can confidently use it to predict the future.

tbowren said:

Ya I was so preocupied by "what can I get this curve to do" that I didn't think about "could I even do that". Strange thing is that I went back and cut in half the TSS numbers of all the "upcoming" workouts and I get almost exactly the same result. TSB is only 1 point lower and the peak is still the same timeframe out.

I understand that this little curve is not the all knowing ultimate predictor of how the race will go. Maybe one needs to collect data for a while and view the graph to see how it got it right in the past before you can confidently use it to predict the future.

You should be able to put some stuff together, if you have been keeping a log since you have been training.

You know, historical data and all that...

There has been quite a bit of discussion about what your CTL should be before you are advised to peak for your races.

I think that below 75 (?), you might have to just cut back the volume on the last couple of days to prepare for your event.

If you were above 100 (?), you might have to go through a peaking cycle...

As far as ATL constants, I am using '5' for any CTL below 70. I will use my historical data to figure out where to go from there, but I will likely move up to '7' above 70.

Jim

tbowren said:

Well I understand there is more to being "fit" than just having a high TSB

Indeed, since TSB is an indicator of "freshness", not fitness.

acoggan said:

Indeed, since TSB is an indicator of "freshness", not fitness.

DOH!!! Considering how many times I've read the "Training with a PM" book in the last 3 weeks, and reading everything on this board, I can't believe I forgot this. I didn't forget it in a quiet little manner like I forget my car keys, I forgot it in a way that has me making forum posts complete with graphs to show EVERYBODY how badly I forgot this.

Thanks, I won't forget this important distinction again anytime soon.

Tony

P.S. OTB4evr: I think that it is interesting that you adjust your ATL constant as your CTL goes up. It would make sense that as you get in better shape it takes more days of effort to effect it.

tbowren said:

DOH!!! Considering how many times I've read the "Training with a PM" book in the last 3 weeks, and reading everything on this board, I can't believe I forgot this. I didn't forget it in a quiet little manner like I forget my car keys, I forgot it in a way that has me making forum posts complete with graphs to show EVERYBODY how badly I forgot this.

Thanks, I won't forget this important distinction again anytime soon.

I don't think you should be quite so hard on yourself: because of the way the concept has been introduced to the world, many have become overly focussed on TSB, rather than considering the entire picture.

tbowren said:

P.S. OTB4evr: I think that it is interesting that you adjust your ATL constant as your CTL goes up. It would make sense that as you get in better shape it takes more days of effort to effect it.

FWIW, I and my beta testers experimented with a couple of versions of the Performance Manager that automatically adjusted the ATL time constant based on your current CTL (one in discrete steps, another continously). On the whole it didn't really seem to work any better than the "plain vanilla" model, but the concept itself is consistent with the scientific literature.