PFPS / ITB Dual Training & Recovery?

Quoted message said:

Sun 21 Mi
Mon 9&9 = 18 Mi.
Tue 9&9 = 18 Mi.
Wed 4 Mi
Thur 9&9 = 18 Mi
Fri (felt knee pain 5 miles into my Thurs PM 9 miler, stuck it out).
Felt fine once home, no pain....decided not to run this Friday AM.
Hoping it was the shoes, I broke out a new pair of the same model...and
1 mile into my Friday PM 9 miler, knee pain returned, I turned around
and trotted back home).

That's totally nuts. Even I don't think I'd attempt more than 100 and I've
been doing 80 mile weeks for ages (the most I hit was 95 once this year).

80 miles is heaps, you'll get a huge improvement just from that alone, as
long as you don't mess it up.

Quoted message said:

The previous 3 weeks I did 70-80 mpw..each of them. I was out to have
a super high mileage peak week but clearly too agressively ramped up
for what I am capable of supporting. But I'm not so stubborn that I am
not listening to my body.

Now what?

You're 3 weeks out, so it's time to start tapering anyway.

So, taper.

BTW, I agree that taking the next two days off is probably a good idea. It
might just disappear if you rest a couple of days then taper.

Quoted message said:

I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB...just
that it's overuse.

Yeah, you've got that right.

Either way, you should be able to work through this.

If it's PFPS, downhills will give you trouble because that's where your quads
take the pounding. So go easy on the downs, or better, just cut the harlem
hills out of the loop for now.

Quoted message said:

Marathon on Nov.6. Good news, I did get my previous weeks base mileage
in this week. I will not try to run Sat or Sun or Mon. I'm kind of
freaking out actually...as I have competing interest 1) training 2)nip
this knee injury in the bud so it does not rear it's ugly head in this
upcoming Marathon.

No. You're already overtrained. That doesn't mean you should do absolutely
nothing in the next three weeks, but it does make it clear where the emphasis
should be.

Quoted message said:

My thought is to get in the gym just work the hell out of the
stairmaster.

If that makes you feel better, by all means. I don't think it will hurt.

Quoted message said:

Race is in 3 weeks got all my work in...I just want to sustain where
I'm at...my running economy/efficiency & have the knee recovered in
full. Advice, pointers, tips, all appreciated. I don't have accesss
to a swimming pool but do to a full gym with all the [censored] they have.

Economy/efficiency are all about intensity. I'd say do some fast running
between now and then, but don't push yourself too hard.

(1) Do some strides. This is the safest and easiest way to get in some quality
work.

(2) If it's PFPS, doing *uphill* reps is a good idea -- maximise
the intensity, and minimize impact on the quads. For example, run up cat hill
(near the boat house) about 6-10 times at a good pace.

(3) another fun workout is to run the last few miles of the course as a
fartlek run -- maintain a decent pace (maybe 7mpm for you), and throw in some
fast surges.

Quoted message said:

Please tell me I am overreacting and should be good to go with 3-4 days
rest and light 4-5 mile runs on flat surfaces...and a tylenol!

I think given your recent big increase in mileage, that's not such a bad idea.

I'd suggest trying to get in an easy 12 miler or so two a week from now if you
feel OK, and by then.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sun 21 Mi
Mon 9&9 = 18 Mi.
Tue 9&9 = 18 Mi.
Wed 4 Mi
Thur 9&9 = 18 Mi
Fri (felt knee pain 5 miles into my Thurs PM 9 miler, stuck it out).

You might want to put this into your experience bank -- stop immediately
when knee pain happens. I learned this one the the hard way... (same
applies to Achilles pain).

You want to "flesh" your pain symptoms out for us armchair docs at home?

I've found that Ice (2' on/ 2'off) x 3 is very curative for knee problems.
It seems to speed up healing by a factor of 2-3, imo.

Good luck. And some can go up more than 10%, provided that you slow down a
lot. I went from 70 to 100 several times, but it was practically jogging
pace for the first week or three.

-- Dan

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sun 21 Mi
Mon 9&9 = 18 Mi.
Tue 9&9 = 18 Mi.
Wed 4 Mi
Thur 9&9 = 18 Mi
Fri (felt knee pain 5 miles into my Thurs PM 9 miler, stuck it out).
Felt fine once home, no pain....decided not to run this Friday AM.
Hoping it was the shoes, I broke out a new pair of the same
model...and
1 mile into my Friday PM 9 miler, knee pain returned, I turned around
and trotted back home).

The previous 3 weeks I did 70-80 mpw..each of them. I was out to have
a super high mileage peak week but clearly too agressively ramped up
for what I am capable of supporting. But I'm not so stubborn that I
am
not listening to my body.

Now what? I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB...just
that it's overuse. It's one knee, my left, I can do knee bends and
stairs up and down painfree. I don't see any swelling or
discoloration, does not seem inflmammed. But if I suspect if I run
Sat
or Sun...I'm going to aggrivate this.

You are a bloody ticking bomb. If you're lucky you may make it to the
starting line.

-DF

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

........
Now what? I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB...just
that it's overuse. It's one knee, my left, I can do knee bends and
stairs up and down painfree. I don't see any swelling or
discoloration, does not seem inflmammed. But if I suspect if I run Sat
or Sun...I'm going to aggrivate this.

When doing 4 hr+ runs every weekend before the Vermont 50m, I had a similar
knee pain on the outside of my left knee, and it felt slightly tender below
the kneecap as well, but not painful. The latter was clearly from downhill
training, while the outside pain seemed to be a warning signal of ITB. Since
I was running only 3 days per week, it was easy to let it heal up, and it
was already better after 2 days rest (with one bike ride), and it was good
to go for the long run one week later -- and wasn't one of the sore areas
during the 50 miler.

Quoted message said:

Please tell me I am overreacting and should be good to go with 3-4 days
rest and light 4-5 mile runs on flat surfaces...and a tylenol!
Thanks folks!
Lance

Like Dan said, Ice! Take whatever else you think might help heal you
faster. For me that's Vitamin C, antioxidants like A, D, Zinc, etc. and Fish
Oil, in high does. Rest it this weekend, then try an easy run Mon or Tues,
depending on how sharp the pain was. If it's still there, cross train some
for a couple of days before trying again. Like Donovan said, taper. I
over-trained a bit during my taper, don't make the same mistake. After a
week of rest / cross training / light running, you should be good to go to
sharpen for NYCM.

-Tony

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:IW%3f.204$9N.130@trndny07...
<Like Donovan said, taper. I

Quoted message said:

over-trained a bit during my taper, don't make the same mistake.

I'm not sure even a taper, at least in the true sense of taper is
appropriate. The traditional taper does cut overall mileage but still
keeps speed and intensity rolling along. With a potential, or existing,
nasty knee problem, if not already seriously compromised, I would
suggest Lance radically cuts back both mileage and intensity.

Remember, this type of problem is not acute, i.e. like spraining and
ankle, but slow destruction doing too much, almost dumb running, over
some time. When I suggest dumb, you seem to forget the fourth facet of
training called rest. Stuff like

Quoted message said:

Sun 21 Mi
Mon 9&9 = 18 Mi.
Tue 9&9 = 18 Mi.
Wed 4 Mi
Thur 9&9 = 18 Mi

is almost insane especially with your wimpy background. It's the "too
syndrome" too much, too soon, too fast and I'll add too little rest.
Then again you might have some Kenyan roots or think you do. 😉

FWIW, take some time OFF. Off as in zero and see if you can get this
problem toned down, aka healed by race day. As others have also pointed
out, you don't run through this type of problem without risking big time
down time. If you run, even flat and slow, stop immediately with the
first tweak.

You have first hand discovered the difference between overreaching and
overtraining. I truly hope you caught it at the early stage where a
little rest will sooth the [censored] body. If you have been frequently
mule headed and used more balls than brains to run through this, well,
I'd rather not say and only you really know.

Good luck, you're going to need it.

-DougF

lance said:

I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB

Maybe not, but you *do* know you stopped just short of ten paragraphs,
don't you? Yeah, you counted. And found out that it's hard to say it
all in less, hence others' requests for you to fill in some blanks.

Quoted message said:

Advice, pointers, tips, all appreciated.

Well... what does Gary Mack say in _Mind Gym_? AFAICT, you're more
interested in his advice on running than in the hard-won experience of
millions of runners and coaches and exercise physiologists you've
always ignored.

Goddammit lance, you can't sit this race out. How am I going to
acheive my goal of finishing close enough to have a good view of your
ass, if not giving you a peek at mine as I pass you on mile 24?? Don't
ruin it for me by ruining it for you!!

Of course you've gotten reponses from some very experienced runners
already. I'd add that, in my experience ITBS always meant significant
pain on downhills and down stairs. So score that as one weak hunch
that you're looking at something else. But just in case, I recently
gave a very brief summary of things I've done to overcome it here:
http://tinyurl.com/bqg8y

Out of curiosity: what *are* you training in? Always the same shoe for
training or do you mix it up? Run the same route nearly all the time?
Surface: pavement, dirt, other? Left-right slope or crown to the
surface? Any stretching, weights, or massage (including self- e.g.
with gadgets like "The Stick" or foam roller) part of your regular
routine, or on occasion?

Whatever you do, make sure to keep your posts to seven paragraphs or
less, lest you get painted as some panicked chicken littlesque
nattering naybob of negativity!

And get well soon.

Worth a shot is a foam roller <http://www.fwonline.com/tbwedge.htm> or
you can usually find them at back/therapy stores. If it is ITB, rolling
can work wonders in a few days/week. I had a case so bad I couldn't bend
my knee and within a week of rolling, was back to normal.
--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

lance said:

I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB

Long time no update, lancie-san. So, like, wassup?

This post:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1063569

reminded me that I'm pretty sure I have an unused Patt Strap (along
with a used, sweated-in one: they sent two as I recall), to which you'd
be welcome if you think it's worth trying. If interested you could
pick up @ my work downtown or Brooklyn residence (no visa required, but
your passport will simplify the border crossing), or I'd pop it in the
mail.

I've also got a spare foam roller up for grabs, but I'm not mailing
that or bringing it to work.

Pendejo, offering more than just taunts... for a limited time only

Beware of body fluid ~ exchange.

Charlie Pendejo said:

lance said:

I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB

Long time no update, lancie-san. So, like, wassup?

This post:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1063569

reminded me that I'm pretty sure I have an unused Patt Strap (along
with a used, sweated-in one: they sent two as I recall), to which you'd
be welcome if you think it's worth trying. If interested you could
pick up @ my work downtown or Brooklyn residence (no visa required, but
your passport will simplify the border crossing), or I'd pop it in the
mail.

I've also got a spare foam roller up for grabs, but I'm not mailing
that or bringing it to work.

Pendejo, offering more than just taunts... for a limited time only

What does "Mind Gym" have to do with any of this?

Charlie Pendejo said:

lance said:

I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB

Maybe not, but you *do* know you stopped just short of ten paragraphs,
don't you? Yeah, you counted. And found out that it's hard to say it
all in less, hence others' requests for you to fill in some blanks.

Quoted message said:

Advice, pointers, tips, all appreciated.

Well... what does Gary Mack say in _Mind Gym_? AFAICT, you're more
interested in his advice on running than in the hard-won experience of
millions of runners and coaches and exercise physiologists you've
always ignored.

Goddammit lance, you can't sit this race out. How am I going to
acheive my goal of finishing close enough to have a good view of your
ass, if not giving you a peek at mine as I pass you on mile 24?? Don't
ruin it for me by ruining it for you!!

Of course you've gotten reponses from some very experienced runners
already. I'd add that, in my experience ITBS always meant significant
pain on downhills and down stairs. So score that as one weak hunch
that you're looking at something else. But just in case, I recently
gave a very brief summary of things I've done to overcome it here:
http://tinyurl.com/bqg8y

Out of curiosity: what *are* you training in? Always the same shoe for
training or do you mix it up? Run the same route nearly all the time?
Surface: pavement, dirt, other? Left-right slope or crown to the
surface? Any stretching, weights, or massage (including self- e.g.
with gadgets like "The Stick" or foam roller) part of your regular
routine, or on occasion?

Whatever you do, make sure to keep your posts to seven paragraphs or
less, lest you get painted as some panicked chicken littlesque
nattering naybob of negativity!

And get well soon.

You can Defeat the Truth
With a strong stare, and a strong arm.

But that's not a legally correct outcome.
That is intimidation.

Twittering One said:

What does "Mind Gym" have to do with any of this?

Charlie Pendejo said:

lance said:

I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB

Maybe not, but you *do* know you stopped just short of ten paragraphs,
don't you? Yeah, you counted. And found out that it's hard to say it
all in less, hence others' requests for you to fill in some blanks.

Quoted message said:

Advice, pointers, tips, all appreciated.

Well... what does Gary Mack say in _Mind Gym_? AFAICT, you're more
interested in his advice on running than in the hard-won experience of
millions of runners and coaches and exercise physiologists you've
always ignored.

Goddammit lance, you can't sit this race out. How am I going to
acheive my goal of finishing close enough to have a good view of your
ass, if not giving you a peek at mine as I pass you on mile 24?? Don't
ruin it for me by ruining it for you!!

Of course you've gotten reponses from some very experienced runners
already. I'd add that, in my experience ITBS always meant significant
pain on downhills and down stairs. So score that as one weak hunch
that you're looking at something else. But just in case, I recently
gave a very brief summary of things I've done to overcome it here:
http://tinyurl.com/bqg8y

Out of curiosity: what *are* you training in? Always the same shoe for
training or do you mix it up? Run the same route nearly all the time?
Surface: pavement, dirt, other? Left-right slope or crown to the
surface? Any stretching, weights, or massage (including self- e.g.
with gadgets like "The Stick" or foam roller) part of your regular
routine, or on occasion?

Whatever you do, make sure to keep your posts to seven paragraphs or
less, lest you get painted as some panicked chicken littlesque
nattering naybob of negativity!

And get well soon.

If a mediccal professional does that to you
in the State of NY, that is illegal.

Proof. Proof. Proof.
An endless infinite digress.

Twittering One said:

You can Defeat the Truth
With a strong stare, and a strong arm.

But that's not a legally correct outcome.
That is intimidation.

Twittering One said:

What does "Mind Gym" have to do with any of this?

Charlie Pendejo said:

lance wrote:
> I don't know if this is PFPS/"runner's knee," or ITB

Maybe not, but you *do* know you stopped just short of ten paragraphs,
don't you? Yeah, you counted. And found out that it's hard to say it
all in less, hence others' requests for you to fill in some blanks.

> Advice, pointers, tips, all appreciated.

Well... what does Gary Mack say in _Mind Gym_? AFAICT, you're more
interested in his advice on running than in the hard-won experience of
millions of runners and coaches and exercise physiologists you've
always ignored.

Goddammit lance, you can't sit this race out. How am I going to
acheive my goal of finishing close enough to have a good view of your
ass, if not giving you a peek at mine as I pass you on mile 24?? Don't
ruin it for me by ruining it for you!!

Of course you've gotten reponses from some very experienced runners
already. I'd add that, in my experience ITBS always meant significant
pain on downhills and down stairs. So score that as one weak hunch
that you're looking at something else. But just in case, I recently
gave a very brief summary of things I've done to overcome it here:
http://tinyurl.com/bqg8y

Out of curiosity: what *are* you training in? Always the same shoe for
training or do you mix it up? Run the same route nearly all the time?
Surface: pavement, dirt, other? Left-right slope or crown to the
surface? Any stretching, weights, or massage (including self- e.g.
with gadgets like "The Stick" or foam roller) part of your regular
routine, or on occasion?

Whatever you do, make sure to keep your posts to seven paragraphs or
less, lest you get painted as some panicked chicken littlesque
nattering naybob of negativity!

And get well soon.

I have been suffering from tightness in ITB for about 2 months. Two
months ago I was unable to stand with both feet on the ground at the
same time. I stretch, swim, strengthen my leg muscles 3 times a week
and have been doing it for the last 2 months. The tightness in ITB has
been gradually reducing. I am able to put both feet on the ground now
but I am experiencing a some pressure in one of my knees. MRI was
taken and there is nothing wrong with my knee where the pressure is
felt. I would like to completely eliminate the problem. I have tried
4 different massage therapist and they have been very inexperienced and
waste of my time and money. I am looking for a Sports (deep tissue)
massage therapist in Manhattan who is knowledgeable about ITB and can
relieve tightness in ITB.

Is it a common symptom to feel pressure in one's knee while standing
with both feet on the ground due to tightness ITB ?

Does anyone know of a good experienced Sports (deep tissue) massage
therapist in Manhattan who is knowledgeable about ITB and can relieve
tightness in ITB?

Thanks