Paris Marathon Race Report

Excellent report! But for those of us who have never been to Paris
can you tell us about some of the places you passed by as you ran
the course?
Thanks,
Steve S.
"marko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi everyone, I'm a little bit late about this race report,
as i ran the marathon on

april

Quoted message said:

4th, but well...

I don't know if you remember, but i posted in march,
before the marathon,

to

Quoted message said:

tell you about my goal of running sub. 3h. I had before
this one a PB of 3h19', 2 years ago, and i had been

constantly

Quoted message said:

improving my times over half-ones, from 1h31' to 1h24'

Nevertheless, i wasn't that confident about the
possibility of making it under 3h as i was constantly
tired towards the end of my training plan, getting back
in shape only during the final week due to a good
tapering. I ran my PB in half-marathon 1 month before the
'thon but it left me

pretty

Quoted message said:

much tired... so that wasn't really a good point.

Anyway, the day of the race, I awoke a good 4 hours before
the start to

see

Quoted message said:

heavy rain and strong gusts of winds... nothing good for
such a race... Never mind, i had a good breakfast and
rested a little bit before jumping

in

Quoted message said:

my car to drive towards the heart of paris. I drove in the
dark, but the rain had begun to abate, and slowly, as the

sun

Quoted message said:

began to rise, i could figure out some patches of clear
sky between

clouds.

Quoted message said:

As i parked the car, there was no more rain, and no more
wind. When i made it to the the starting line, there was
already a big crowd of people, with more than 30000
entrants, but i could go directly in the

3hours

Quoted message said:

starting zone with my red bib.

Waiting in line, the clouds were getting away and we had
sunshine with a good temperature of 10°C for the start,
which was near optimal.

I began running with good form and very relax hitting the
kilometers every 4'15" or so, at least until the halfway
mark which i hit in 01:29'44. That was pretty much what i
planned, only that i was beginning to wonder

if

Quoted message said:

i would be able to sustain that pace until the end... I
began to slow down just a little bit, maybe 3seconds/km.
Then i stayed with that good rythm until kilometer 30,
hitting it in
02:08'46 still ok for a sub 3hours 'thon, but i was
beginning to feel and think that i won't do it this
time, and that i'd rather focus on running a good PB
while not risking having a really bad moment towards
the end. So i slowed a bit, without hitting the wall to
about 4'30" and even 4'40"

at

Quoted message said:

some point (there were some uphills parts which were hard
on tired

legs...)

Quoted message said:

I managed to stay in good condition till 2 kilometers
before the finish, somuch so that i could again accelerate
and even run the last 195meters in 44"! My time was
3h04'39" which makes it a PB by more than 15minutes

I was really happy to cross the line, eventhough i didn't
make it below 3hours. I arrived in good shape and
instantly planning the next one, for which i will not
forget that it is way better to be 10% undertrained than
1% overtrained!

i then took 2 weeks off of total rest, and gradually began
to rerun 2/3 * week, preparing for june 13th, a 10k where
i'd like to run below 38' (my

PB

Quoted message said:

is 38'06"😉
______________
marko www.42-195.org

In article said:

Nevertheless, i wasn't that confident about the
possibility of making it under 3h as i was constantly
tired towards the end of my training plan, getting back
in shape only during the final week due to a good
tapering. I ran my PB in half-marathon 1 month before the
'thon but it left me pretty much tired... so that wasn't
really a good point.

Though I've never run a full marathon, I've some
experience building milage, and I've eyeballed several
marathon training programs. I know several of my peers
have also found themselves feeling crushed under the
demands of such training.

My impression of these programs based on eyeballing them
and on my own experience milage-building is that they
simply ramp up milage much too quickly -- for example, the
runners world "advanced" program recommends that runners on
as little as 35mpw hold down a pre-taper *average* of up to
50mpw -- a 50% increase in training load. That's right,
over a period of 12 weeks, the trainee is expected to adapt
to a 50% training load increase with a peek of close to a
100% increase.

Suffice it to say, I don't consider these expectations
realistic, and I know very few people who can handle such
rapid jumps in milage without slowing down or even getting
injured, especially when the jumps are also accompanied by
an escalation of speed work.

I'm not sure how applicable all of this is to you -- but
it's something to keep in mind. I only mention it because I
think the idea of using a more gradual buildup (as opposed
to diving into a 50% training load increase) is all too
often overlooked. I've known people to abruptly jump from
35mpw to 50mpw and when they have overtraining problems,
they conclude that 50mpw is some sort of intrinsic "milage
ceiling" when in fact the real ceiling is arguably their
rate of adaption to training load increases, and not the
training load itself.

Quoted message said:

My time was 3h04'39" which makes it a PB by more than
15minutes

Excellent judgment, you'll probably get a faster recovery by
sacrificing that minute or so.

Quoted message said:

I arrived in good shape and instantly planning the next
one, for which i will not forget that it is way better to
be 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained!

Yep.

Quoted message said:

i then took 2 weeks off of total rest, and gradually began
to rerun 2/3 * week, preparing for june 13th, a 10k where
i'd like to run below 38' (my PB is 38'06"😉

Some of my training buddies, especially those who do heavy
marathon training, have reported a sort of "post marathon
bounce" effect -- their resting after the race can give them
a fresh pair of legs and bring a PR off the back of their
marathon. I personally find this counter-intuitive, but I
have seen the results first hand demonstrated on two
separate occasions (as I huffed and puffed behind the guy in
question) so I find it hard to ignore. So I'd suggest giving
it a run, but once you've done that, it's probably time to
start rebuilding. You may find that you can begin your next
program on a higher training load which may make the ascent
to the peak a little more tolerable next time around.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Amen to that. Due to nagging case of PF this past year, I
cut my usual training mileage for a recent marathon by about
one third. No speedwork or hills. Just some midweek tempo
stuff. Didn't want to unduly aggravate the PF as this was
one of my "must make if possible" events. I still managed my
second best marathon time-not bad for a race I was unsure
about entering in the first place. Probably ran my
best(smartest)race too. Finished strong with nothing
hurting. Apart from the usual week of tight quads, recovery
is coming along nicely. I managed three 20 milers in
training and tried to avoid lot of midweek junk miles.
Hopefully, next time, my body will allow a few more miles
and a bit of speedwork. Congrats on your race. Maybe next
time on your sub-three hopes.

marko wrote: (snip)

Quoted message said:

I arrived in good shape and instantly planning the next
one, for which i will not forget that it is way better to
be 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained!

--
Random number generation is too vital a task to be left
to chance.

"sms" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Excellent report! But for those of us who have never been
to Paris can you tell us about some of the places you
passed by as you ran the course?

well, i should say that the race has a very enjoyable
course, perfectly designed for sightseeing, but as i'm from
paris, i already know all those places and didn't even think
of mentionning them.

the start of the race is on the champs élysées, which i'm
sure you've heard about. it's just under the 'arc de
triomphe', an arch built by napoleon after his victory at
austerlitz (and yes, before waterloo ;-)) it goes down the
champs elysees (downhill for 2km) to the concorde place,
with its egyptian obelisk, its fountains and the us embassy.
from there it runs parallel to the louvres museum towards
the place of 'la bastille' named after the jailhouse that
was stormed as the beginning of the 1789 french revolution.
the course continues east towards the 'bois de vincennes', a
huge forest/park that lies east of paris where i usually go
running. running all the way around the park, we went
westbound back towards paris, again thru the bastille place,
and down on the river seine bank for about 10 km, with
splendid views in the heart of paris, eiffel tower, the
louvres, beautiful bridges and what not. at kilometer 33, up
the hill it went across the rich west part of town, towards
the 'bois the boulogne', the other green lung that lies west
of paris. making a little loop in that park, we went back in
paris with the arrival on the foch avenue.

well it's quite difficult to describe all we've seen on the
course, but i'd say it's worth the while. the marathon is
pretty well organized and i think that nearly half of the
entrants are from other countries than france, which make it
a really international one.

the winner was Ambesa Tolosa from ethiopia in 2h08'56''

thanks marko

Quoted message said:

Thanks, Steve S. "marko" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi everyone, I'm a little bit late about this race
report, as i ran the marathon on

april

Quoted message said:

4th, but well...

I don't know if you remember, but i posted in march,
before the

marathon,

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

tell you about my goal of running sub. 3h. I had before
this one a PB of 3h19', 2 years ago, and i had been

constantly

Quoted message said:

improving my times over half-ones, from 1h31' to 1h24'

Nevertheless, i wasn't that confident about the
possibility of making it under 3h as i was constantly
tired towards the end of my training plan, getting back
in shape only during the final week due to a good
tapering. I ran my PB in half-marathon 1 month before
the 'thon but it left me

pretty

Quoted message said:

much tired... so that wasn't really a good point.

Anyway, the day of the race, I awoke a good 4 hours
before the start to

see

Quoted message said:

heavy rain and strong gusts of winds... nothing good for
such a race... Never mind, i had a good breakfast and
rested a little bit before

jumping

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

my car to drive towards the heart of paris. I drove in
the dark, but the rain had begun to abate, and slowly,
as the

sun

Quoted message said:

began to rise, i could figure out some patches of clear
sky between

clouds.

Quoted message said:

As i parked the car, there was no more rain, and no more
wind. When i made it to the the starting line, there was
already a big crowd

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people, with more than 30000 entrants, but i could go
directly in the

3hours

Quoted message said:

starting zone with my red bib.

Waiting in line, the clouds were getting away and we had
sunshine with a good temperature of 10°C for the start,
which was near optimal.

I began running with good form and very relax hitting
the kilometers

every

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4'15" or so, at least until the halfway mark which i hit
in 01:29'44. That was pretty much what i planned, only
that i was beginning to wonder

if

Quoted message said:

i would be able to sustain that pace until the end... I
began to slow down just a little bit, maybe 3seconds/km.
Then i stayed with that good rythm until kilometer 30,
hitting it in
02:08'46 still ok for a sub 3hours 'thon, but i was
beginning to feel

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think that i won't do it this time, and that i'd rather
focus on running

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good PB while not risking having a really bad moment
towards the end. So i slowed a bit, without hitting the
wall to about 4'30" and even

4'40"

Quoted message said:

at

Quoted message said:

some point (there were some uphills parts which were
hard on tired

legs...)

Quoted message said:

I managed to stay in good condition till 2 kilometers
before the finish, somuch so that i could again
accelerate and even run the last 195meters

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

44"! My time was 3h04'39" which makes it a PB by more
than 15minutes

I was really happy to cross the line, eventhough i
didn't make it below 3hours. I arrived in good shape and
instantly planning the next one, for which i will not
forget that it is way better to be 10% undertrained than
1% overtrained!

i then took 2 weeks off of total rest, and gradually
began to rerun 2/3

*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

week, preparing for june 13th, a 10k where i'd like to
run below 38' (my

PB

Quoted message said:

is 38'06"😉
______________
marko www.42-195.org

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
de news: [email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
marko wrote:

Though I've never run a full marathon, I've some
experience building

milage,

Quoted message said:

and I've eyeballed several marathon training programs. <

looks like you're really intersted in running one ;-)

Quoted message said:

I know several of my peers have also found themselves
feeling crushed under the demands of such training.

that is indeed fairly common

Quoted message said:

My impression of these programs based on eyeballing them
and on my own experience milage-building is that they
simply ramp up milage much too

quickly <snip>

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure how applicable all of this is to you -- but
it's something to keep in mind. I only mention it because
I think the idea of using a more gradual buildup (as
opposed to diving into a 50% training load increase)

is

Quoted message said:

all too often overlooked. I've known people to abruptly
jump from 35mpw to 50mpw and when they have overtraining
problems, they conclude that

50mpw

Quoted message said:

is some sort of intrinsic "milage ceiling" when in fact
the real ceiling

is

Quoted message said:

arguably their rate of adaption to training load
increases, and not the

training

Quoted message said:

load itself.

well, my overtraining problem was not about mileage. but
your point is absolutely correct. i knew that i shouldn't
increase the per week milage by more than 5 km every
other week.

what i did wrongly was running my speed work too fast during
my 4 month plan i began my plan 1 month after a good half-
marathon run in 1h24'40" which was my then PB and for which
i was already on high mileage ( between 60 and 70km per week
about 40miles) in the first week of the plan, i ran my first
10km race with great ease in 38'06" and also began speed
work on a track, thing i hadn't done for nearly 6 months...
my mileage was kept between 60 an 80km per week.

the problem is that i did repeats of 10*800m in 2'47" which
i do now in 2'56" for example ! or 10*200m in 36" which i do
now in 41" i did also some pretty strenuous tempo sessions
with 1-1/2 hour jog, 30 minutes @ 3'54"/km, 10' jog, 15' @
3'41" and 30' jog that's about 32km (20 miles) with half
marathon and 10km race pace...

but most of all i didn't really take heed of my body and
didn't rest enough when i wasn't feeling in good shape. it's
not really that i was overtrained, i'm not sure i would have
made it in 3h04' but rather that i was constantly on the
brink of being overtrained. at some point, 2 months before
the race, i ran a 10km race where i couldn't run @ my 10k
race pace, but only @half marathon pace. the week before i
was so tired, i barely run...

altogether, i think that my plan was bad because i ran
too fast on intervals (and too short intervals like 100
or 200 meters) and didn't prepare my marathon race pace
at all, which might be the biggest mistake. next time, i
won't run a half-marathon race for a PB one month before
a marathon but rather run it at marathon race pace as a
good training session.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My time was 3h04'39" which makes it a PB by more than
15minutes

Excellent judgment, you'll probably get a faster recovery
by sacrificing

that

Quoted message said:

minute or so.

yes i'm still rather pleased with that decision i took
during the race: not to push it foolishly, and to enjoy
the course.

Quoted message said:

Some of my training buddies, especially those who do heavy
marathon

training,

Quoted message said:

have reported a sort of "post marathon bounce" effect --
their resting

after

Quoted message said:

the race can give them a fresh pair of legs and bring a PR
off the back of their marathon. I personally find this counter-
intuitive, but I have seen

the

Quoted message said:

results first hand demonstrated on two separate occasions
(as I huffed and puffed behind the guy in question) so I
find it hard to ignore. So I'd suggest giving it a run,
but once you've done that, it's probably time to start
rebuilding. You may find that you can begin your next
program on a

higher

Quoted message said:

training load which may make the ascent to the peak a
little more

tolerable

Quoted message said:

next time around.

right now i run only 35km per week and mostly quality runs
3 times per week. We'll see if that yields some good
results for a 10k race, i have no idea, as it wil be my
3rd 10k race.

However, I feel in really good shape, with very good
endurance, freshness, and think i just need to keep my speed
in good form.

As for my next marathon, i expect to run it again next
spring, or if i really feel good this fall, i shall try and
go for it in october!

marko

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

<snip lots> Donovan - I think that many of these programmes
are not aimed at elite runners. I suspect that ramping up
your mileage when that mileage is not generally run at
anything but v. comfortable pace is not as detrimental or
"crushing" as it would be if each mile really counted. J

In article said:

<snip lots> Donovan - I think that many of these programmes
are not aimed at elite runners. I suspect that ramping up
your mileage when that mileage is not generally run at
anything but v. comfortable pace is not as detrimental or
"crushing" as it would be if each mile really counted.

The "advanced" RW program is targetting runners with a base
of 35mpw. I have bridged the gap between 35 and 50
(comfortably can do that ) but I almost injured myself
trying to jump too quickly, before backing away and using a
slower buildup. One of my teammates who usually runs at
35mpw also had problems during marathon training at around
50mpw. I can't speak for the other guy, but I did all of my
base milage at an aerobic intensity.

Even running slowly places a number of stresses on the body
-- after all, if it didn't, then there would be no adaption
hence no point running slow milage.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Thanks for the description. It's now definitely on my list
of things to do before I die.

"marko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"sms" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news: sr5pc.4215$hH.97545@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Quoted message said:

Excellent report! But for those of us who have never
been to Paris can you tell us about some of the places
you passed by as you ran the course?

well, i should say that the race has a very enjoyable
course, perfectly designed for sightseeing, but as i'm
from paris, i already know all those places and didn't
even think of mentionning them.

the start of the race is on the champs élysées, which i'm
sure you've

heard

Quoted message said:

about. it's just under the 'arc de triomphe', an arch
built by napoleon after his victory at austerlitz (and
yes, before waterloo ;-)) it goes down the champs elysees
(downhill for 2km) to the concorde place, with its
egyptian obelisk, its fountains and the us embassy. from
there it runs parallel to the louvres museum towards the
place of 'la bastille' named after the jailhouse that was
stormed as the beginning of

the

Quoted message said:

1789 french revolution. the course continues east towards
the 'bois de vincennes', a huge forest/park that lies east
of paris where i usually go running. running all the way
around the park, we went westbound back towards paris,
again thru the bastille place, and down on the river seine
bank for about

10

Quoted message said:

km, with splendid views in the heart of paris, eiffel
tower, the louvres, beautiful bridges and what not. at
kilometer 33, up the hill it went across the rich west
part of town, towards the 'bois the boulogne', the other
green lung that lies west of paris. making a little loop
in that park, we went back in paris with the arrival on
the foch avenue.

well it's quite difficult to describe all we've seen on
the course, but

i'd

Quoted message said:

say it's worth the while. the marathon is pretty well
organized and i think that nearly half of the entrants are
from other countries than france, which make it a really
international one.

the winner was Ambesa Tolosa from ethiopia in 2h08'56''

thanks marko

Quoted message said:

Thanks, Steve S. "marko" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi everyone, I'm a little bit late about this race
report, as i ran the marathon on

april

Quoted message said:

4th, but well...

I don't know if you remember, but i posted in march,
before the

marathon,

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

tell you about my goal of running sub. 3h. I had
before this one a PB of 3h19', 2 years ago, and i had
been

constantly

Quoted message said:

improving my times over half-ones, from 1h31' to 1h24'

Nevertheless, i wasn't that confident about the
possibility of making

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

under 3h as i was constantly tired towards the end of
my training

plan,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

getting back in shape only during the final week due
to a good

tapering.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I ran my PB in half-marathon 1 month before the 'thon
but it left me

pretty

Quoted message said:

much tired... so that wasn't really a good point.

Anyway, the day of the race, I awoke a good 4 hours
before the start

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see

Quoted message said:

heavy rain and strong gusts of winds... nothing good
for such a

race...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Never mind, i had a good breakfast and rested a little
bit before

jumping

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

my car to drive towards the heart of paris. I drove
in the dark, but the rain had begun to abate, and
slowly, as

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sun

Quoted message said:

began to rise, i could figure out some patches of
clear sky between

clouds.

Quoted message said:

As i parked the car, there was no more rain, and no
more wind. When i made it to the the starting line,
there was already a big crowd

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people, with more than 30000 entrants, but i could go
directly in the

3hours

Quoted message said:

starting zone with my red bib.

Waiting in line, the clouds were getting away and we
had sunshine with

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good temperature of 10°C for the start, which was near
optimal.

I began running with good form and very relax hitting
the kilometers

every

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4'15" or so, at least until the halfway mark which i
hit in 01:29'44. That was pretty much what i planned,
only that i was beginning to

wonder

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if

Quoted message said:

i would be able to sustain that pace until the end...
I began to slow down just a little bit, maybe
3seconds/km. Then i stayed with that good rythm until
kilometer 30, hitting it in
02:08'46 still ok for a sub 3hours 'thon, but i was
beginning to feel

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think that i won't do it this time, and that i'd
rather focus on

running

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good PB while not risking having a really bad moment
towards the end. So i slowed a bit, without hitting
the wall to about 4'30" and even

4'40"

Quoted message said:

at

Quoted message said:

some point (there were some uphills parts which were
hard on tired

legs...)

Quoted message said:

I managed to stay in good condition till 2 kilometers
before the

finish,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

somuch so that i could again accelerate and even run
the last

195meters

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

44"! My time was 3h04'39" which makes it a PB by more
than 15minutes

I was really happy to cross the line, eventhough i
didn't make it

below

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3hours. I arrived in good shape and instantly planning
the next one, for which

i

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will not forget that it is way better to be 10%
undertrained than 1% overtrained!

i then took 2 weeks off of total rest, and gradually
began to rerun

2/3

Quoted message said:

*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

week, preparing for june 13th, a 10k where i'd like to
run below 38'

(my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PB

Quoted message said:

is 38'06"😉
______________
marko www.42-195.org

Donovan, you quote the"advanced" programme! I wonder how
many RW readers follow it? J

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My impression of these programs based on eyeballing them
and on my own experience milage-building is that they
simply ramp up milage much too quickly -- for example, the
runners world "advanced" program recommends that runners >
on as little as 35mpw hold down a pre-taper *average* of
up to 50mpw -- a 50% increase in training load. That's
right, over a period of 12 weeks, the trainee is expected
to adapt to a 50% training load increase with a peek of
close to a 100% increase.

If this is so, it strikes me as quite, eh, mad! In this part
of the world the programs - even those that come with
caveats such as: "Not for the first-timer! Not for the weak
of mind or body!" - limit the stepup in mileage to 25% and
warn of the risks of injury or exhaustion if this advice is
not heeded.

Quoted message said:

Suffice it to say, I don't consider these expectations
realistic, and I know very few people who can handle such
rapid jumps in milage without slowing down or even getting
injured, especially when the jumps are also accompanied by
an escalation of speed work.

Add to that the tendency of many ambitious runners to use an
already optimistic goal time; when the milegae goes up
steeply amd the interval and tempo paces are a tiny bit too
fast, those risks are multiplied.

Anders

"marko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

looks like you're really intersted in running one ;-)

He is - but he is trying to get us to talk him out of
running one (the NYCM):-)

Quoted message said:

what i did wrongly was running my speed work too fast
during my 4 month plan i began my plan 1 month after a
good half-marathon run in 1h24'40" which was my then PB
and for which i was already on high mileage ( between 60
and 70km per week about 40miles) in the first week of the
plan, i ran my first 10km race with great ease in 38'06"
and also began speed work on a track, thing i hadn't done
for nearly 6 months...

It strikes me that your 10K time was 1) good enough for your
goal and 2) better than your HM time, which would suggest
that your relative weakpoint was not in speed but in
endurance.

Quoted message said:

the problem is that i did repeats of 10*800m in 2'47"
which i do now in 2'56" for example !

The former (3:29min/km) would be about right for a goal
of sub-2:50, and the latter (3:40) just about right for
sub-3 - although I`d prefer something like 6x1000m (with
long recoveries) alternating with 2x4000m (~3:45) and
3x3000m (~3:50).

Quoted message said:

or 10*200m in 36" which i do now in 41"

Given that you don´t seem to have any great problem with
your running form, I´d have skipped them altogether and
simply done some strides during an easy run. The latter pace
seems fine, though, and I don´t think such a session would
ever be bad training as such.

Quoted message said:

i did also some pretty strenuous tempo sessions with 1-1/2
hour jog, 30 minutes @ 3'54"/km, 10' jog, 15' @ 3'41" and
30' jog that's about 32km (20 miles) with half marathon
and 10km race pace...

In principle I believe we should aim to train as "elitely"
as the elites do, but there are sessions they do which we
are extremely ill-advised to copy:-)

This would´ve probably been a hard, but fine session, if one
would either limit the tempo to marathon pace or, when
somewhat shortened, to HM pace.

Quoted message said:

but most of all i didn't really take heed of my body and
didn't rest enough when i wasn't feeling in good shape.

Yes, the problem is to know when we are just feeling tired
and a bit achy _as we should_ and when those _not
dissimilar_ feelings are a sign of overexertion!

It would be so easy and simple if the first sign of over-
training was a failure to complete a session, but often we
can finish them as the were written in the program - and end
up victims to our own ambition and dutifulness.

Quoted message said:

altogether, i think that my plan was bad because i ran too
fast on intervals (and too short intervals like 100 or 200
meters) and didn't prepare my marathon race pace at all,
which might be the biggest mistake.

Yes, such a trend would no doubt be beneficial - but
those MP runs can take their toll, too, if one doesn´t
allow for recovery.

Quoted message said:

next time, i won't run a half-marathon race for a PB one
month before a marathon but rather run it at marathon race
pace as a good training session.

Easier said than done:-)

Quoted message said:

However, I feel in really good shape, with very good
endurance, freshness, and think i just need to keep my
speed in good form.

Yes, your marathon training _did_ produce results - but not
at the time and the kind you would´ve wanted:-)

Quoted message said:

As for my next marathon, i expect to run it again next
spring, or if i really feel good this fall, i shall try
and go for it in october!

IMHO it would be a pity if you let the work you did "go to
waste" by not having another go this year.

La Rochelle in November has produced at least one sub-3
finisher in this newsgroup:-)

Anders (who wasn´t referring to himself)

"Anders Lustig" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
de news: [email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"marko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

He is - but he is trying to get us to talk him out of
running one (the NYCM):-)

i think he should try and go for it, to me there's really
nothing else like a marathon! but then it certainly takes
its toll from the body, and probably cannot permit to get
really good and fast times in shorter races i guess.

Quoted message said:

It strikes me that your 10K time was 1) good enough for
your goal and 2) better than your HM time, which would
suggest that your relative weakpoint was not in speed but
in endurance.

you might be right, i certainly do have a problem with
endurance in races, although i have no problem running long
in training. many people that made a sub3h marathon have
slower HM times than i do. i should definitely train more my
endurance.

Quoted message said:

The former (3:29min/km) would be about right for a goal of
sub-2:50, and the latter (3:40) just about right for sub-3
- although I`d prefer something like 6x1000m (with long
recoveries) alternating with 2x4000m (~3:45) and 3x3000m
(~3:50).

yes that's also what i think now, and i really should i've
run longer speed sessions as you mention.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or 10*200m in 36" which i do now in 41"

Given that you don´t seem to have any great problem with
your running form, I´d have skipped them altogether and
simply done some strides during an easy run. The latter
pace seems fine, though, and I don´t think such a session
would ever be bad training as such.

the idea of simply doing some strides during an easy run is
good, and certainly less stressfull than having to go on a
track with an hour and so on.

Quoted message said:

In principle I believe we should aim to train as "elitely"
as the elites do, but there are sessions they do which we
are extremely ill-advised to copy:-)

or we should adapt them to our level and capacity

Quoted message said:

This would´ve probably been a hard, but fine session, if
one would either limit the tempo to marathon pace or, when
somewhat shortened, to HM pace.

yes, that should indeed have been done at MP

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but most of all i didn't really take heed of my body and
didn't rest

enough

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when i wasn't feeling in good shape.

Yes, the problem is to know when we are just feeling tired
and a bit achy _as we should_ and when those _not
dissimilar_ feelings are a sign of overexertion!

It would be so easy and simple if the first sign of over-
training was a failure to complete a session, but often we
can finish them as the were written in the program - and
end up victims to our own ambition and dutifulness.

alas...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

altogether, i think that my plan was bad because i ran
too fast on

intervals

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(and too short intervals like 100 or 200 meters) and
didn't prepare my marathon race pace at all, which might
be the biggest mistake.

Yes, such a trend would no doubt be beneficial - but those
MP runs can take their toll, too, if one doesn´t allow for
recovery.

well, i have no idea, having done none. but i suspect that
they are certainly less stressfull than the long sessions i
did with 10k race pace in between...

right now i train for a 10k and i'm doing some sessions at
my projected 10k race pace. i will try and run a, i think
conservative, 3'45"/km pace, to hit 37'30" at the finish, my
goal being less than 38' at least! to train at race pace
gives a really good feel for the intensity to sustain, and
has certainly good effects on the body, muscles and mind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

next time, i won't run a half-marathon race for a PB one
month before a marathon but rather run it at marathon
race pace as a good training

session.

Quoted message said:

Easier said than done:-)

yes that must be hard, especially if one feels in great
shape... but one should know what one's goal is : HM or M
(that's for myself...)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, I feel in really good shape, with very good
endurance,

freshness,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and think i just need to keep my speed in good form.

Yes, your marathon training _did_ produce results - but
not at the time and the kind you would´ve wanted:-)

that's the typical problem for marathon training it seems :
to be in good shape at the right time...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for my next marathon, i expect to run it again next
spring, or if i really feel good this fall, i shall try
and go for it in october!

IMHO it would be a pity if you let the work you did "go to
waste" by not having another go this year.

yes, i'd really like to, but i should be the happy father of
a third child in september, so... i'm not sure i'd be able
to take care of everything at the same time... ;-) and a
sub3h marathon with a stroller is certainly not in my reach,
nor is it in my goals ;-)

Quoted message said:

La Rochelle in November has produced at least one sub-3
finisher in this newsgroup:-)

yes, that race seems very intersting, and it is set up in a
really nice area on the sea side. we'll see by then!

Quoted message said:

Anders (who wasn´t referring to himself)

another french poster then?

marko

Ahh, the Paris marathon..........or, the cupcake stampede,
as I like to call it.

Ahh, the Paris marathon..........or, the cupcake stampede,
as I like to call it.

"marko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, such a trend would no doubt be beneficial - but
those MP runs can take their toll, too, if one doesn´t
allow for recovery.

Quoted message said:

well, i have no idea, having done none.

Well, how long MP runs one should do or how often is another
Big Question and opinions vary as much as they do on long
runs or intervals:-)

Steve Common, for instance, did well on a program (based on
the principles of Irina Kazakova and her coach; see
runirina.comrunirina.comOpen ↗ ) with very little MP running and
he´d probably argue that MP runs are not an optimal form of
training and should be avoided as far as possible.

One coach advocates a 10-15km MP run every week *in addition
to up to 15km long "fast finish" at MP...+5s/km on the
weekly long runs, and another insists on a 10-12km MP and a
20...30km MP run, each every three weeks.

Quoted message said:

but i suspect that they are certainly less stressfull than
the long sessions i did with 10k race pace in between...

For sure:-)

Quoted message said:

right now i train for a 10k and i'm doing some sessions at
my projected 10k race pace.

10K-training is a subject I have no opinions on -
fortunately.

Quoted message said:

yes, i'd really like to, but i should be the happy father
of a third child in september, so... i'm not sure i'd be
able to take care of everything at the same time... ;-)

Ah, but you´ve had plenty of practise:-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anders (who wasn´t referring to himself)

Quoted message said:

another french poster then?

The aforementioned Steve, who is very French despite being
born in Torkshire:-)

In article said:

right now i train for a 10k and i'm doing some sessions at
my projected 10k race pace.

This pace is probably going to be kind of fast to do tempo
training and kind of slow to do intervals with substantial
rests. IMO it's better to slow it down just a little and do
tempo training. If you can comfortably cruise at 6:15-6:20
pace or so, you're in good shape for mid-low 37s in a 10k.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Anders Lustig" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
de news: [email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"marko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Well, how long MP runs one should do or how often is
another Big Question and opinions vary as much as they do
on long runs or intervals:-)

yes, marathon training is still not yet a science...

Quoted message said:

Steve Common, for instance, did well on a program (based
on the principles of Irina Kazakova and her coach; see
runirina.comrunirina.comOpen ↗ ) with very little MP running and
he´d probably argue that MP runs are not an optimal form
of training and should be avoided as far as possible.

oh yes, i know these programs from Irina, they look very
interesting. they do indeed insist more on tempo runs if i
remember correctly.

so Steve Common is the "french" guy who did the la rochelle
marathon! i know from him as he did also some posts on the
french running newsgroup a while ago. then newly i read his
"marathon des sables" race report here.

Quoted message said:

One coach advocates a 10-15km MP run every week *in
addition to up to 15km long "fast finish" at MP...+5s/km
on the weekly long runs, and another insists on a 10-12km
MP and a 20...30km MP run, each every three weeks.

this is indeed controversial... ;-) anyway, i think i'll try
and go for it in my next program

Quoted message said:

10K-training is a subject I have no opinions on -
fortunately.

why that, fortunately?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yes, i'd really like to, but i should be the happy
father of a third

child

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in september, so... i'm not sure i'd be able to take
care of everything

at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the same time... ;-)

Ah, but you´ve had plenty of practise:-)

that is also true ;-)

Quoted message said:

The aforementioned Steve, who is very French despite being
born in Torkshire:-)

yes i see, i think he is somewhere around toulouse, in south-
west france

thanks for your comments anders !

marko

In article said:

Well, how long MP runs one should do or how often is
another Big Question and opinions vary as much as they do
on long runs or intervals:-)

Steve Common, for instance, did well on a program (based
on the principles of Irina Kazakova and her coach; see
runirina.comrunirina.comOpen ↗ ) with very little MP running and
he´d probably argue that MP runs are not an optimal form
of training and should be avoided as far as possible.

Jack Daniels advocates using MP runs, though he is well
aware that as Steve says they are "physiologically neither
here nor there".

The main advantage of the MP run is that it is a form of
race rehearsal. For most distances, you can practice racing
by doing other races. But not for the marathon. You could
"practice" by racing a half marathon, but this is much more
stressful than a MP pace run.

But Steve is a very experienced runner and probably has a
good feel for marathon pace without including MP runs in
his program.

Quoted message said:

One coach advocates a 10-15km MP run every week *in
addition to up to 15km long "fast finish" at MP...+5s/km
on the weekly long runs, and another insists on a 10-12km
MP and a 20...30km MP run, each every three weeks.

I think it's important to consider the target audience of
these programs. They depend partly on the experience of the
runner, but also on the runners individual traits.

An MP run once per week is probably a waste for most
experienced runners -- they'd be better off using those
resources for tempo training. But then, there are some top
runners (Jim Peters did this iirc) who just ran their entire
base milage at marathon pace.

An MP run every three weeks ? Could be a reasonable
compromise for many (even some of the pros), others like
Steve will split it between tempo and aerobic work.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, Anders

Lustig said:

Well, how long MP runs one should do or how often is
another Big Question and opinions vary as much as they do
on long runs or intervals:-)

Steve Common, for instance, did well on a program (based
on the principles of Irina Kazakova and her coach; see
runirina.comrunirina.comOpen ↗ ) with very little MP running and
he´d probably argue that MP runs are not an optimal form
of training and should be avoided as far as possible.

Jack Daniels advocates using MP runs, though he is well
aware that as Steve says they are "physiologically neither
here nor there".

I think Daniels called it "no man's land" as far as
training. Too fast for a long run, too slow for a tempo run.

Quoted message said:

An MP run every three weeks ? Could be a reasonable
compromise for many (even some of the pros), others like
Steve will split it between tempo and aerobic work.

Once every 3 weeks seems be good enough for me. As the
marathon approaches, I plan on entering at least one half-
marathon and running it at MP. Another plan would be to
enter a marathon, then drop out after the planned MP mileage
is reached. That way you can practice fluid intake at the
aid stations, etc.

Phil M.

--
"I gotta go. You're killin' me."