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Cycling Equipment
Published
4 July 2007
Last activity
15 July 2007
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wishful thinker
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  1. Mark Shroyer said:


    I'll go ahead and state the obvious: A modern car offers
    excellent built-in protection against moderate-speed impacts,
    including seat belts, multiple airbags, active head restraints
    (in Hondas anyway), and most importantly a solid frame around
    your entire body with crumple zones in the front and rear. A
    helmet doesn't add a whole lot to that.

    Baloney.

    Quoted message said:

    (It may be worth
    noting, however, that in motor sports such as rally racing and
    NASCAR, where crashes are significantly more likely, helmets
    *are* worn.)

    Hmmmm, so you're saying that helmets don't do much, but in situations
    where people do crash they are useful.....

    Anyway I'll go ahead and state the obvious: unless your car has side
    curtain air bags your head can easily hit the side window in an
    accident.

    Quoted message said:

    Bicycles and motorcycles cannot offer the same level of head
    protection as a car, so it's generally a good idea to wear a
    helmet on these if you feel there's a risk of you hitting the
    pavement.

    I'll go ahead and state the obvious -- tens of thousands of people die
    every year in the US despite the technology you mention.. And I'll
    state another thing that is obvious -- average speed in cars is far
    higher than on a bike.

    You're just speculating that helmets won't help in car accidents. We
    get the same sort of speculation that helmets will help prevent
    serious injuries in bike accidents. The numbers of serious injuries we
    (don't) see cycling don't support that.

    But heck, make up rationales all you want.

    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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  2. Mark Shroyer said:

    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread.

    What anti-helmet fanatics?

    And by the way, given that tens of thousands of people die in car
    accidents every year that helmets could help prevent and you are
    skeptical of the value of helmet use in cars, can I call you an
    anti-helmet fanatic?

    --
    JT
    ****************************
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    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  3. Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:
    Mark Shroyer said:

    Now you helmet-haters can argue all you want that a helmet
    wouldn't necessarily have completely prevented his concussion,
    or that the scrapes he suffered and had to take care of for
    weeks aren't worth consideration. But wearing a helmet
    certainly wouldn't have hurt...

    It could increase the rotational force applied to the head, increasing
    brain trauma.

    Not in this case. Nor in most actual (as opposed to
    hypothetical) accidents that I've known people to be involved
    in.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread. Nobody (at least nobody here) is telling you that
    you should wear a helmet if you don't want to;

    Not true.

    OK, fine. *I'm* not telling you that you should wear a helmet
    if you don't want to.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    likewise, if the
    rest of us prefer having some degree of protection, however
    minimal, between our heads and the road, then you really
    shouldn't take it personally.

    If you don't appreciate the concept of correctly understanding how
    things work (and often more importantly, don't work), a "tech" group
    seems an odd place to hang out.

    Ouch, that ad hominem attack might have hurt me. Fortunately I
    was wearing my helmet.

    --
    Mark Shroyer
    http://markshroyer.com/

  4. Mark Shroyer said:

    But wearing a helmet
    certainly wouldn't have hurt, and he'll surely be wearing a
    helmet as soon as he gets his bike replaced.

    I know someone who was shot by accident. I don't know if a
    bulletproof vest would have helped, but it certainly wouldn't have
    hurt.

    A relative of mine was walking and was killed by a car. I don't know
    if a helmet would have helped, but it certainly wouldn't have hurt.

    I know someone who recently developed breast cancer. I don't know if
    eating more broccoli would have helped, but it certainly wouldn't have
    hurt.

    What? You don't eat broccoli often and urge people to eat it several
    times a week? Why you're an anti-brocolloi zealot! What have you got
    against broccoli?
    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  5. Quoted message said:

    While helmets for drivers would be about as silly/useful as cycle
    helmets, drivers, in sharp contrast to cyclists of N. America, have no
    cultural expectation of helmet use. In fact, wearing a helmet while
    driving would get one branded a loony. Cyclists can take advantage of
    this unique cultural expectation, however bizarre it may be, for use
    of shiny foam hat and receive arguably some marginal safety benefit.

    Very true.

    That said, should cyclists just roll over and perpetuate (or even
    expand) this sort of social pressure for miniscule benefits and
    probably larger societal costs (by discouraging people from cycling
    due to a perception it's especially dangerous, like American football,
    and sky diving, and auto racing, and war)?

    I don't think so.
    --
    JT
    ****************************
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    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  6. Mark Shroyer said:

    Not in this case. Nor in most actual (as opposed to
    hypothetical) accidents that I've known people to be involved
    in.

    How do you know this?
    --
    JT
    ****************************
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    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  7. Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    landotter said:
    Fred Clydesdale said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:26:17 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > >I've "used" 3 helmets- and certainly if I wasn't wearing one "I"
    > >would not be here now.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I don't know the circumstance of your accidents, but in every
    > case I've heard where someone said something like that it's
    > turned out that they are very mistaken and irrational about
    > helmet use.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > It's amazing that you have three times you had accidents that
    > were severe enough to have been deadly and yet were not so severe
    > as to overwhelm those small pieces of foam or break your neck or
    > other body parts in crippling or deadly ways. Or perhaps you are
    > crippled or severely injured in other ways?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wasn't there a paramount in here just a second ago?

    Quoted message said:

    Theft on Usenet is worse than NYC.

    Quoted message said:

    back to the subject at hand: Anyone commuting without a chain mail
    vest is a thorax hater!!!!

    Mine's mithril. Lighter and breathes better than iron or steel.

    Dork.

  8. G.T. said:

    "Mark Shroyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread. Nobody (at least nobody here) is telling you that
    you should wear a helmet if you don't want to; likewise, if the
    rest of us prefer having some degree of protection, however
    minimal, between our heads and the road, then you really
    shouldn't take it personally.

    Operative word being "minimal". If you are worried about scratches or even
    wounds requiring stitches than by all means wear a helmet. But it's
    laughable to expect a thin styrofoam helmet to protect your brain from
    serious injury.

    Even if it has a layer of matzo ball soup laminated in?

  9. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Mark Shroyer said:

    Not in this case. Nor in most actual (as opposed to
    hypothetical) accidents that I've known people to be involved
    in.

    How do you know this?

    I've seen no evidence to suggest that the hard plastic covering
    a bicycle helmet, even if cracked, would provide significantly
    more friction (and thus torque) against the concrete curb than
    his hair and skin did. On the other hand, neither of my two
    acquaintances whose helmets have hit the ground have experienced
    such ill effects.

    But you're the one arguing the hypothetical scenario that a
    helmet would likely have caused rotational head trauma; what's
    your evidence.

    --
    Mark Shroyer
    http://markshroyer.com/

  10. G.T. said:

    Operative word being "minimal". If you are worried about
    scratches or even wounds requiring stitches than by all means
    wear a helmet. But it's laughable to expect a thin styrofoam
    helmet to protect your brain from serious injury.

    You're right, it might not save me from serious injury. But the
    ability of a helmet's styrofoam padding to reduce the impulse
    delivered to my head could very well could turn a serious injury
    into a minor one, or a minor injury into something I can get up
    and brush myself off from. And that's good enough reason for
    me.

    --
    Mark Shroyer
    http://markshroyer.com/

  11. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Mark Shroyer said:

    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread.

    What anti-helmet fanatics?

    And by the way, given that tens of thousands of people die in car
    accidents every year that helmets could help prevent and you are
    skeptical of the value of helmet use in cars...

    I'm not skeptical of the value of helmets in cars. I only
    stated that for most people, the protection provided by a
    helmet, in addition to all the protection that a modern car
    already provides, isn't worth the hassle of wearing one --
    therefore, people usually don't wear helmets while driving
    around town.

    Quoted message said:

    can I call you an anti-helmet fanatic?

    No, because even if somebody really wants to wear a helmet in
    his or her car, I don't feel some compelling need to convince
    him or her otherwise simply because it isn't the decision that
    *I* personally would have made.

    --
    Mark Shroyer
    http://markshroyer.com/

  12. Mark Shroyer said:

    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread. Nobody (at least nobody here) is telling you that
    you should wear a helmet if you don't want to; likewise, if the
    rest of us prefer having some degree of protection, however
    minimal, between our heads and the road, then you really
    shouldn't take it personally.

    The argument for taking it personally seems to be that anyone who
    sees a cyclist wearing a helmet will conclude that cycling is dangerous,
    and therefore stop or never start cycling. As a result, the automotive
    hegemony on the road will be complete, and the bicycle industry will
    collapse.

  13. G.T. said:

    Operative word being "minimal". If you are worried about scratches or even
    wounds requiring stitches than by all means wear a helmet. But it's
    laughable to expect a thin styrofoam helmet to protect your brain from
    serious injury.

    Surprisingly little padding is needed to dramatically reduce the peak
    deceleration force experienced by the object being protected. You should
    read up on the measures being used and researched to protect hard
    drives, which are even more fragile than human brains.

  14. Michael Warner said:
    Mark Shroyer said:

    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread. Nobody (at least nobody here) is telling you that
    you should wear a helmet if you don't want to; likewise, if the
    rest of us prefer having some degree of protection, however
    minimal, between our heads and the road, then you really
    shouldn't take it personally.

    The argument for taking it personally seems to be that anyone
    who sees a cyclist wearing a helmet will conclude that cycling
    is dangerous, and therefore stop or never start cycling. As a
    result, the automotive hegemony on the road will be complete,
    and the bicycle industry will collapse.

    Huh, that seems kind of odd... the automotive industry doesn't
    suffer much of a safety image problem from the fact that drivers
    are almost universally required to wear seatbelts and have
    airbags. Oh well, that's humans for you I guess.

    (Not that I agree the government should *require* competent
    adults to wear seat belts or use airbags, but I'll save that one
    for another thread on a more relevant newsgroup...)

    --
    Mark Shroyer
    http://markshroyer.com/

  15. Mark Shroyer said:

    (Not that I agree the government should *require* competent
    adults to wear seat belts or use airbags, but I'll save that one
    for another thread on a more relevant newsgroup...)

    Here in Australia our public health system spends a great deal
    of money on saving, treating and rehabilitating people who didn't
    wear seatbelts and helmets, so from a purely economic standpoint
    it seems reasonable to require people to wear these things.

    Is the same true in the US? If the choice not to protect oneself
    doesn't cost the taxpayer anything, I can't see any compelling
    reason to require it. Health insurance premiums may be higher,
    of course :-)

  16. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:
    Tim McNamara said:
    Quoted message said:

    The short answer is: it's a beer cooler. On your head. Designed for


    impacts of about 10 mph. Faster than about 14 mph it's not very useful.
    As a result, a helmet is probably of greater benefit for children than
    adults- children are more likely to be riding a bike within the
    limitations of a helmet- low speed and low head eheight fromwhich to
    fall. A helmet might keep road rash off your head, which is nice, but
    it's not likely to add much in terms of brain protection- a bit perhaps
    in straight line impacts and nothing to prevent shearing injuries of the
    brain. Interestingly, the decisive factor in the severity of brain
    injuries is not the trauma itself but the things that happen afterwards-
    cytotoxic edema in which a number of brain-damaging chemicals are
    released into the brain as the blood-brain barrier is disrupted.

    your stats and arguements lie- propoganda. the basic fact of the
    matter is that helmets protect at speeds much greater than the 10mph
    you cite. I guess you ride at about 10 mph for that type of reasoning
    to seem valid to you. I've "used" 3 helmets- and certainly if I wasn't
    wearing one "I" would not be here now. You may go ahead and ride
    without one as you wish, hopefully, you will never need to be wearing
    one- but all it takes is just that one time and it could make the
    difference-

    At least one of those incidents seems to have done some damage.

    --
    Ted Bennett

  17. Mark Shroyer said:

    On 2007-07-05, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    How about some reality? You're at least as likely to die in a car so
    why don't you wear a helmet in a car? I'm asking you seriously? Why
    don't you?

    Tens of thousands of people are dying in cars every year in the US
    and a helmet may help. Do you advocate they wear one? And if not,
    why not?

    I'll go ahead and state the obvious: A modern car offers
    excellent built-in protection against moderate-speed impacts,
    including seat belts, multiple airbags, active head restraints
    (in Hondas anyway), and most importantly a solid frame around
    your entire body with crumple zones in the front and rear. A
    helmet doesn't add a whole lot to that. (It may be worth
    noting, however, that in motor sports such as rally racing and
    NASCAR, where crashes are significantly more likely, helmets
    *are* worn.)

    Bicycles and motorcycles cannot offer the same level of head
    protection as a car, so it's generally a good idea to wear a
    helmet on these if you feel there's a risk of you hitting the
    pavement.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm not saying you should -- I'm just asking. Why or why not? And
    if not, what makes cycling so special that it warrants extra
    protection?

    And don't pretend that the question of whether or not you hit
    the pavement is entirely a matter of your skill as a cyclist.
    On this newsgroup there are constantly stories of cyclists being
    hit by negligent drivers; in those threads, nobody makes foolish
    arguments that the cyclist was at fault for not being careful
    enough.

    An anecdote involving my ex-roommate provides a good example.
    Coming home from campus last semester, he was right-hooked by a
    driver who cut across the bike lane. She came from behind, did
    not use a turn signal, and turned suddenly, running over his
    rear wheel; there was no reasonable way for him to anticipate or
    avoid this collision.

    When he went down, his head hit the concrete curb. Fortunately
    he didn't hit hard, but the side of his head was badly scraped
    and he suffered a minor concussion. He passed in and out of
    consciousness a few times that night.

    Now you helmet-haters can argue all you want that a helmet
    wouldn't necessarily have completely prevented his concussion,
    or that the scrapes he suffered and had to take care of for
    weeks aren't worth consideration. But wearing a helmet
    certainly wouldn't have hurt, and he'll surely be wearing a
    helmet as soon as he gets his bike replaced.

    Quoted message said:

    These are simple questions.

    One other argument I'd like to attack, which I keep seeing pop
    up in this and similar threads, is that helmets aren't rated for
    30 MPH collision, ergo if you're riding at 30 MPH then wearing a
    helmet won't do you any good. Bull$hit. If you're clipped and
    fall off your bike, the speed at which you hit the ground is
    mostly a function of the acceleration of gravity from your
    position on top of your bike down to the pavement, regardless of
    your horizontal velocity.

    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread. Nobody (at least nobody here) is telling you that
    you should wear a helmet if you don't want to; likewise, if the
    rest of us prefer having some degree of protection, however
    minimal, between our heads and the road, then you really
    shouldn't take it personally.

    You're completely correct...and obviously a newbie to these flame wars. The
    AHZs (anti-helmet zealots) refuse to listen to reason. You'll see :-D

  18. Ted Bennett said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:
    Tim McNamara said:

    > The short answer is: it's a beer cooler. On your head. Designed
    > for
    impacts of about 10 mph. Faster than about 14 mph it's not very
    useful. As a result, a helmet is probably of greater benefit for
    children than adults- children are more likely to be riding a bike
    within the limitations of a helmet- low speed and low head eheight
    fromwhich to fall. A helmet might keep road rash off your head,
    which is nice, but it's not likely to add much in terms of brain
    protection- a bit perhaps in straight line impacts and nothing to
    prevent shearing injuries of the brain. Interestingly, the
    decisive factor in the severity of brain injuries is not the trauma
    itself but the things that happen afterwards- cytotoxic edema in
    which a number of brain-damaging chemicals are released into the
    brain as the blood-brain barrier is disrupted.

    your stats and arguements lie- propoganda. the basic fact of the
    matter is that helmets protect at speeds much greater than the 10mph
    you cite. I guess you ride at about 10 mph for that type of reasoning
    to seem valid to you. I've "used" 3 helmets- and certainly if I
    wasn't wearing one "I" would not be here now. You may go ahead and
    ride without one as you wish, hopefully, you will never need to be
    wearing one- but all it takes is just that one time and it could
    make the difference-

    At least one of those incidents seems to have done some damage.

    Why, because you /disagree/ with him? Brilliant.

  19. On Jul 4, 10:49 am, "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    No spam alert about this thread?

  20. Quoted message said:

    On Jul 4, 10:49 am, "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    No spam alert about this thread?

    Make that troll alert -

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