Palmer's Problem (ketosis and abdominal pain)

In article <[email hidden]>,
"MDS" <[email hidden]> wrote:

some people can and do suffer from severe abdominal pain

Quoted message said:

caused by ketosis.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

Wow...amazing that in five years of reading the books, reading the
newsgroups, and researching I've never heard of this. Good thing I have
a 'doctor' to keep me updated.

--
***************************
Wayne Crannell
Atkins+ 10/21/01
249/141
***************************

"Wayne Crannell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"MDS" <[email hidden]> wrote:

some people can and do suffer from severe abdominal pain

Quoted message said:

caused by ketosis.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

Wow...amazing that in five years of reading the books, reading the
newsgroups, and researching I've never heard of this. Good thing I have
a 'doctor' to keep me updated.

Wow! I have a doctor, too! And she warned me about ketosis! I guess that
means your doctor is smarter than my doctor.

Quoted message said:

In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal pain as a
potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two things. First, as the
information itself seems to indicate, only a small minority have experienced
this. Second, you can count me in that small minority because the same
thing happened to me the first and last time I did the induction phase. I
was almost done with that phase when the pain hit me like a ton of bricks.
I went to the local medical center, and the doctor on duty suspected
appendicitis and sent me to the emergency room via ambulance, but the
hospital staff determined that it wasn't appendicitis and decided it was
either a stomach bug or constipation. Let me stress here that Palmer is not
trolling or joking around. I was in so much pain in the hospital that they
had to put me on morphine. I quit the induction phase early and began
taking in more carbs while still keeping them below 125g per day. The pain
went away within two days.

Now this is a classic. We're supposed to believe that during induction
you had stomach pain so severe you went via ambulance to the emergency
room. The pain was so bad, you were put on morphine. Then you tell
us that as a result of that you "quit the induction phase early and
began taking in more carbs while still keeping them below 125g per
day."

Am I the only one that finds this quite amazing? If you were in such
pain and went through that experience, any normal person would have
immediately just gone back to normal eating, not fooling around with
modifying the LC plan by upping the carbs, but keeping them under 125
to see what would happen next.

I don't doubt that some people could experience stomach problems from a
sudden radical change in diet, whether to LC or anything else. But
from some of what I'm hearing here and from Palmer, I have serious
doubts as to the veracity of these events.

I remember back when I was a newbie low carber that I would suffer from bad
cramps after doing induction level carbs for a while. It turns out that I
have diverticulosis. The problem was solved by ensuring adequate fiber
intake, not increasing carbs or staying out of ketosis.

I found out about the diverticulosis after having had a colonoscopy. I
wonder if any of you have had such so that you can rule out this
possibility?

MDS wrote:
:: In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal
:: pain as a potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two
:: things. First, as the information itself seems to indicate, only a
:: small minority have experienced this. Second, you can count me in
:: that small minority because the same thing happened to me the first
:: and last time I did the induction phase. I was almost done with
:: that phase when the pain hit me like a ton of bricks. I went to the
:: local medical center, and the doctor on duty suspected appendicitis
:: and sent me to the emergency room via ambulance, but the hospital
:: staff determined that it wasn't appendicitis and decided it was
:: either a stomach bug or constipation. Let me stress here that
:: Palmer is not trolling or joking around. I was in so much pain in
:: the hospital that they had to put me on morphine. I quit the
:: induction phase early and began taking in more carbs while still
:: keeping them below 125g per day. The pain went away within two
:: days. I eventually quit low-carbing altogether until I was
:: diagnosed with diabetes six weeks ago. My doctor told me to cut my
:: carb intake, and when I told her about my past experience with
:: Atkins, she told me to avoid ketosis because of the potential
:: problems, like severe abdominal pain. She didn't really give me any
:: specific advice on which diet to try, and since then I have
:: normalized my blood sugar and am slowly losing weight by keeping my
:: carb intake at less than 100g per day.
::
:: I must admit that I'm rather surprised that so many people here
:: overlooked where Palmer said he was on a low-carb diet that wasn't
:: Atkins. I'd be [censored] too if people ignored something I said and
:: then accused me of being a liar or a troll. To the rest of you more
:: courteous people, I understand how you might not be able to relate
:: to Palmer's situation, but I do think that it shows a need for more
:: research into this as well as a greater need for understanding that
:: some people can and do suffer from severe abdominal pain caused by
:: ketosis.
::
:: --
:: MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

[email hidden] wrote:
::: In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal
::: pain as a potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two
::: things. First, as the information itself seems to indicate, only a
::: small minority have experienced this. Second, you can count me in
::: that small minority because the same thing happened to me the first
::: and last time I did the induction phase. I was almost done with
::: that phase when the pain hit me like a ton of bricks.
::: I went to the local medical center, and the doctor on duty suspected
::: appendicitis and sent me to the emergency room via ambulance, but
::: the hospital staff determined that it wasn't appendicitis and
::: decided it was either a stomach bug or constipation. Let me stress
::: here that Palmer is not trolling or joking around. I was in so
::: much pain in the hospital that they had to put me on morphine. I
::: quit the induction phase early and began taking in more carbs while
::: still keeping them below 125g per day. The pain went away within
::: two days.
::
::
:: Now this is a classic. We're supposed to believe that during
:: induction you had stomach pain so severe you went via ambulance to
:: the emergency room. The pain was so bad, you were put on morphine.
:: Then you tell us that as a result of that you "quit the induction
:: phase early and began taking in more carbs while still keeping them
:: below 125g per day."
::
:: Am I the only one that finds this quite amazing? If you were in
:: such pain and went through that experience, any normal person would
:: have immediately just gone back to normal eating, not fooling around
:: with modifying the LC plan by upping the carbs, but keeping them
:: under 125 to see what would happen next.
::
:: I don't doubt that some people could experience stomach problems
:: from a sudden radical change in diet, whether to LC or anything
:: else. But from some of what I'm hearing here and from Palmer, I
:: have serious doubts as to the veracity of these events.

I don't know anything about Palmer, but MDS posts regularly on the diabetes
group and is doing well with controling his BG via LC. I think this issue
is unrelated to carbs and ketosis, and likely more related to fiber & liquid
intake and possibly diverticulosis. the change is diet could harden stuff in
the bowels and cause pain as waste materials move through. I suffered from
something similar to this myself, though I didn't describe it the same,
perhaps. I even remember posting about it here in the early days.

I'd like to see the research that ties the pain specifically to ketosis.

In news:[email hidden],
MDS <[email hidden]> stated
| In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal
| pain as a potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two
| things. First, as the information itself seems to indicate, only a
| small minority have experienced this. Second, you can count me in
| that small minority because the same thing happened to me the first
| and last time I did the induction phase. I was almost done with that
| phase when the pain hit me like a ton of bricks. I went to the local
| medical center, and the doctor on duty suspected appendicitis and
| sent me to the emergency room via ambulance, but the hospital staff
| determined that it wasn't appendicitis and decided it was either a
| stomach bug or constipation. Let me stress here that Palmer is not
| trolling or joking around. I was in so much pain in the hospital
| that they had to put me on morphine. I quit the induction phase
| early and began taking in more carbs while still keeping them below
| 125g per day. The pain went away within two days. I eventually quit
| low-carbing altogether until I was diagnosed with diabetes six weeks
| ago. My doctor told me to cut my carb intake, and when I told her
| about my past experience with Atkins, she told me to avoid ketosis
| because of the potential problems, like severe abdominal pain. She
| didn't really give me any specific advice on which diet to try, and
| since then I have normalized my blood sugar and am slowly losing
| weight by keeping my carb intake at less than 100g per day.
|
| I must admit that I'm rather surprised that so many people here
| overlooked where Palmer said he was on a low-carb diet that wasn't
| Atkins. I'd be [censored] too if people ignored something I said and
| then accused me of being a liar or a troll. To the rest of you more
| courteous people, I understand how you might not be able to relate to
| Palmer's situation, but I do think that it shows a need for more
| research into this as well as a greater need for understanding that
| some people can and do suffer from severe abdominal pain caused by
| ketosis.

MDS said:

In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal pain as a
potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two things. First, as the
information itself seems to indicate, only a small minority have experienced
this. Second, you can count me in that small minority because the same
thing happened to me the first and last time I did the induction phase. I
was almost done with that phase when the pain hit me like a ton of bricks.
I went to the local medical center, and the doctor on duty suspected
appendicitis and sent me to the emergency room via ambulance, but the
hospital staff determined that it wasn't appendicitis and decided it was
either a stomach bug or constipation. Let me stress here that Palmer is not
trolling or joking around. I was in so much pain in the hospital that they
had to put me on morphine. I quit the induction phase early and began
taking in more carbs while still keeping them below 125g per day. The pain
went away within two days. I eventually quit low-carbing altogether until I
was diagnosed with diabetes six weeks ago. My doctor told me to cut my carb
intake, and when I told her about my past experience with Atkins, she told
me to avoid ketosis because of the potential problems, like severe abdominal
pain. She didn't really give me any specific advice on which diet to try,
and since then I have normalized my blood sugar and am slowly losing weight
by keeping my carb intake at less than 100g per day.

I must admit that I'm rather surprised that so many people here overlooked
where Palmer said he was on a low-carb diet that wasn't Atkins. I'd be
[censored] too if people ignored something I said and then accused me of being a
liar or a troll. To the rest of you more courteous people, I understand how
you might not be able to relate to Palmer's situation, but I do think that
it shows a need for more research into this as well as a greater need for
understanding that some people can and do suffer from severe abdominal pain
caused by ketosis.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

Well I'm almost surprised to see that someone actually can relate to
what I've been saying. It almost feels like I'm in the presence of a
cult group in here, with Atkins as the god and the books about him the
bibles. Say just one thing that doesn't agree with what they believe,
and they all go apeshit. Listen, I'd really like to discuss this matter
with you more, but I'd like to take it out of the group. Would you mind
if I e-mailed you and we can dicuss this further without these cultists
insisting that I'm wrong, lying, trolling, or something else? I would
really appreciate it. My wife started eating normally Tuesday night,
although her appetite was small. I just got home, and she said she was
feeling better although there was still some pain.

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:
::: In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal
::: pain as a potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two
::: things. First, as the information itself seems to indicate, only a
::: small minority have experienced this. Second, you can count me in
::: that small minority because the same thing happened to me the first
::: and last time I did the induction phase. I was almost done with
::: that phase when the pain hit me like a ton of bricks.
::: I went to the local medical center, and the doctor on duty suspected
::: appendicitis and sent me to the emergency room via ambulance, but
::: the hospital staff determined that it wasn't appendicitis and
::: decided it was either a stomach bug or constipation. Let me stress
::: here that Palmer is not trolling or joking around. I was in so
::: much pain in the hospital that they had to put me on morphine. I
::: quit the induction phase early and began taking in more carbs while
::: still keeping them below 125g per day. The pain went away within
::: two days.
::
::
:: Now this is a classic. We're supposed to believe that during
:: induction you had stomach pain so severe you went via ambulance to
:: the emergency room. The pain was so bad, you were put on morphine.
:: Then you tell us that as a result of that you "quit the induction
:: phase early and began taking in more carbs while still keeping them
:: below 125g per day."
::
:: Am I the only one that finds this quite amazing? If you were in
:: such pain and went through that experience, any normal person would
:: have immediately just gone back to normal eating, not fooling around
:: with modifying the LC plan by upping the carbs, but keeping them
:: under 125 to see what would happen next.
::
:: I don't doubt that some people could experience stomach problems
:: from a sudden radical change in diet, whether to LC or anything
:: else. But from some of what I'm hearing here and from Palmer, I
:: have serious doubts as to the veracity of these events.

I don't know anything about Palmer, but MDS posts regularly on the

diabetes

Quoted message said:

group and is doing well with controling his BG via LC. I think this issue
is unrelated to carbs and ketosis, and likely more related to fiber &

liquid

Quoted message said:

intake and possibly diverticulosis. the change is diet could harden stuff

in

Quoted message said:

the bowels and cause pain as waste materials move through. I suffered

from

Quoted message said:

something similar to this myself, though I didn't describe it the same,
perhaps. I even remember posting about it here in the early days.

I'm glad we knew each other a little, Roger. Perhaps because of your
message above, some of the more level-headed people here seem to have
stepped forward. I was getting rather frustrated myself with the attitude
of some of the people here.

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I remember back when I was a newbie low carber that I would suffer from

bad

Quoted message said:

cramps after doing induction level carbs for a while. It turns out that I
have diverticulosis. The problem was solved by ensuring adequate fiber
intake, not increasing carbs or staying out of ketosis.

I found out about the diverticulosis after having had a colonoscopy. I
wonder if any of you have had such so that you can rule out this
possibility?

I didn't have a colonoscopy so I wouldn't know if there was anything like
that inside me. I just had to look up the definition of diverticulosis, and
if the definition is correct, then it means there are pouches or sacs
protruding from the intestines? Is that right?

Quoted message said:

MDS wrote:
:: In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal
:: pain as a potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two
:: things. First, as the information itself seems to indicate, only a
:: small minority have experienced this. Second, you can count me in
:: that small minority because the same thing happened to me the first
:: and last time I did the induction phase. I was almost done with
:: that phase when the pain hit me like a ton of bricks. I went to the
:: local medical center, and the doctor on duty suspected appendicitis
:: and sent me to the emergency room via ambulance, but the hospital
:: staff determined that it wasn't appendicitis and decided it was
:: either a stomach bug or constipation. Let me stress here that
:: Palmer is not trolling or joking around. I was in so much pain in
:: the hospital that they had to put me on morphine. I quit the
:: induction phase early and began taking in more carbs while still
:: keeping them below 125g per day. The pain went away within two
:: days. I eventually quit low-carbing altogether until I was
:: diagnosed with diabetes six weeks ago. My doctor told me to cut my
:: carb intake, and when I told her about my past experience with
:: Atkins, she told me to avoid ketosis because of the potential
:: problems, like severe abdominal pain. She didn't really give me any
:: specific advice on which diet to try, and since then I have
:: normalized my blood sugar and am slowly losing weight by keeping my
:: carb intake at less than 100g per day.
::
:: I must admit that I'm rather surprised that so many people here
:: overlooked where Palmer said he was on a low-carb diet that wasn't
:: Atkins. I'd be [censored] too if people ignored something I said and
:: then accused me of being a liar or a troll. To the rest of you more
:: courteous people, I understand how you might not be able to relate
:: to Palmer's situation, but I do think that it shows a need for more
:: research into this as well as a greater need for understanding that
:: some people can and do suffer from severe abdominal pain caused by
:: ketosis.
::
:: --
:: MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

"Palmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MDS said:

In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal pain

as a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two things. First, as

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

information itself seems to indicate, only a small minority have

experienced

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this. Second, you can count me in that small minority because the same
thing happened to me the first and last time I did the induction phase.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was almost done with that phase when the pain hit me like a ton of

bricks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I went to the local medical center, and the doctor on duty suspected
appendicitis and sent me to the emergency room via ambulance, but the
hospital staff determined that it wasn't appendicitis and decided it was
either a stomach bug or constipation. Let me stress here that Palmer is

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trolling or joking around. I was in so much pain in the hospital that

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

had to put me on morphine. I quit the induction phase early and began
taking in more carbs while still keeping them below 125g per day. The

pain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

went away within two days. I eventually quit low-carbing altogether

until I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was diagnosed with diabetes six weeks ago. My doctor told me to cut my

carb

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

intake, and when I told her about my past experience with Atkins, she

told

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me to avoid ketosis because of the potential problems, like severe

abdominal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pain. She didn't really give me any specific advice on which diet to

try,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and since then I have normalized my blood sugar and am slowly losing

weight

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by keeping my carb intake at less than 100g per day.

I must admit that I'm rather surprised that so many people here

overlooked

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where Palmer said he was on a low-carb diet that wasn't Atkins. I'd be
[censored] too if people ignored something I said and then accused me of

being a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

liar or a troll. To the rest of you more courteous people, I understand

how

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you might not be able to relate to Palmer's situation, but I do think

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it shows a need for more research into this as well as a greater need

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

understanding that some people can and do suffer from severe abdominal

pain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

caused by ketosis.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

Well I'm almost surprised to see that someone actually can relate to
what I've been saying. It almost feels like I'm in the presence of a
cult group in here, with Atkins as the god and the books about him the
bibles. Say just one thing that doesn't agree with what they believe,
and they all go apeshit. Listen, I'd really like to discuss this matter
with you more, but I'd like to take it out of the group. Would you mind
if I e-mailed you and we can dicuss this further without these cultists
insisting that I'm wrong, lying, trolling, or something else? I would
really appreciate it. My wife started eating normally Tuesday night,
although her appetite was small. I just got home, and she said she was
feeling better although there was still some pain.

I'm glad to hear that your wife is feeling better. I understand your
frustration, but I didn't want to reply to this right away because some of
the more sensible people have started posting and I didn't want to inflame
the wrong people. The morons I don't care about :-). I see you responded
to Roger. He's a good person, and I think this misunderstanding should be
forgotten as far as you two are concerned. We seem to have a common problem
in our past, and some of us are intelligent enough to be able to discuss it
without resorting to flames and accusations. Since I know Roger a little
from alt.support.diabetes, I will say that he is someone you can trust to
hear you out and give you an honest answer. You can e-mail me, of course,
but don't feel like you have to rush off out of here just because some of
the posters are jackasses. Killfile those dumbasses, and interact with the
others. I haven't interacted much here myself since I haven't really needed
any help on anything and haven't really seen too much that interested me,
but I've popped in now and then just to see what people are discussing cause
you never know when it's going to be something that interests you, just like
this whole abdominal pain issue interested me.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

:snip:

Quoted message said:

Go take a look at the other thread where I just exposed Palmer with two
of his posts that contradict each other. In his first post he claimed
his wife was taking in 75-100g of carbs a day, plus or minus 20. Then
today he claimed she was taking in 20g a day. I knew when he started
with the PCRM links he was full of baloney. So hold the vulgarity,
some of us have plenty of reason to be suspicious here and running
around calling everyone names isn't gonna win you any friends or
respect.

Look Einstein. I couldn't care less at this point about winning respect or
friends in this group, especially after all that has just happened. It's
you people who need to work on winning respect. And as far as calling
people names is concerned, only you and a few others have experienced that
from me. I treated Roger with respect because he already had my respect.
You have none of it. You act like some pretty important people here. But
you know what? You're not. I'm not. We're just names on a computer
screen. Get over yourselves. Someone asked for help. You jumped on him. I
said I had had the same experience. Some of you jumped on me. I flamed
your ass good. Don't like it? Tough. You're just a name on a screen,
little boy. Now just don't reply to this because you're obviously still too
stupid to get it through your thick skull that the issue is over. Palmer
got his answer and indicated to me in e-mail that he wasn't going to stick
around and reply to all your ridiculous [censored]. I've been replying to it
because I can't stand people like you. I probably wouldn't have thought
twice about this guy had it not been for the fact that I had the same thing
happen to me. And then to watch you pathetic people swarm around him like
you were actually important or something, that's enough reason to draw my
guns and start shooting. Now [censored]. Issue over. Drop it.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

MDS wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: I remember back when I was a newbie low carber that I would suffer
::: from bad cramps after doing induction level carbs for a while. It
::: turns out that I have diverticulosis. The problem was solved by
::: ensuring adequate fiber intake, not increasing carbs or staying out
::: of ketosis.
:::
::: I found out about the diverticulosis after having had a
::: colonoscopy. I wonder if any of you have had such so that you can
::: rule out this possibility?
::
::
:: I didn't have a colonoscopy so I wouldn't know if there was anything
:: like that inside me. I just had to look up the definition of
:: diverticulosis, and if the definition is correct, then it means
:: there are pouches or sacs protruding from the intestines? Is that
:: right?

Yep. And when the become in inflamed, you have a condition know as
diverticulitis. That's when things become a problem....supposedly, eating
certain foods can aggravate the condition...certain types of seeds, etc.

MDS said:

Look Einstein. I couldn't care less at this point about winning respect or
friends in this group, especially after all that has just happened. It's
you people who need to work on winning respect. And as far as calling
people names is concerned, only you and a few others have experienced that
from me.

Only a few? Like Marengo, Tunder, Saffire, and me, all long time
members of this group who you attacked with extreme profanity without
any of us having used profanity against you. Is this what your
parents taught you?

Quoted message said:

I treated Roger with respect because he already had my respect.

That's an interesting way to go through life. Treat people with
hostile vulgarity until they earn your respect. Does it work well for
you? Please try that with a Cop next time you are pulled over.

Quoted message said:

You have none of it. You act like some pretty important people here. But
you know what? You're not. I'm not. We're just names on a computer
screen. Get over yourselves. Someone asked for help. You jumped on him.

This is obviously part of your problem. You fly off the handle based
on faulty information and assumptions. I never jumped on Palmer
prior to your attacking me with extreme vulgarity. My one and only
post in that entire thread was 74th on the list long after your barrage
of vulgarity started at me. And that one post I only made when I
pointed out that after all these posts, we still don't know what diet
Palmer was following. And that in his first post Palmer claimed his
wife was somewhere around 75-100g of carbs per day, then in another
post he says it was 20g. Some of us see things like that, citations
from the PCRM, and begin to have doubts.

I

Quoted message said:

said I had had the same experience. Some of you jumped on me. I flamed
your ass good. Don't like it? Tough. You're just a name on a screen,
little boy. Now just don't reply to this because you're obviously still too
stupid to get it through your thick skull that the issue is over.

If it's over, then why are you posting this?

Palmer

Quoted message said:

got his answer and indicated to me in e-mail that he wasn't going to stick
around and reply to all your ridiculous [censored]. I've been replying to it
because I can't stand people like you.

Or Marengo, Tunder, Saffire, Wayne.... All regulars here who have
contributed a lot more to this newsgroup than you and seem to be able
to get along.

I probably wouldn't have thought

Quoted message said:

twice about this guy had it not been for the fact that I had the same thing
happen to me. And then to watch you pathetic people swarm around him like
you were actually important or something, that's enough reason to draw my
guns and start shooting. Now [censored]. Issue over. Drop it.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

If you're so smart, how come you're still fat, while those you hurl
obscenities at here aren't?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MDS said:

Look Einstein. I couldn't care less at this point about winning respect

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

friends in this group, especially after all that has just happened.

It's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you people who need to work on winning respect. And as far as calling
people names is concerned, only you and a few others have experienced

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from me.

Only a few? Like Marengo, Tunder, Saffire, and me, all long time
members of this group who you attacked with extreme profanity without
any of us having used profanity against you. Is this what your
parents taught you?

What do parents have to do with it? You guys were acting likes asses, and
you got treated like asses. Pure and simple. Do you want an equation to
make it simple for you? Here: Ass+Acting like an ass=Flamebait.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I treated Roger with respect because he already had my respect.

That's an interesting way to go through life. Treat people with
hostile vulgarity until they earn your respect. Does it work well for
you? Please try that with a Cop next time you are pulled over.

Actually it has. When one stands up for himself, as I have in the past,
those who realize I am not going to back down usually call a truce and the
flaming ends with some semblence of mutual respect after that. Stop trying
to apply real world ethics to the internet. You'll only get burned.

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You have none of it. You act like some pretty important people here.

But

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you know what? You're not. I'm not. We're just names on a computer
screen. Get over yourselves. Someone asked for help. You jumped on

him.

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This is obviously part of your problem. You fly off the handle based
on faulty information and assumptions. I never jumped on Palmer
prior to your attacking me with extreme vulgarity. My one and only
post in that entire thread was 74th on the list long after your barrage
of vulgarity started at me. And that one post I only made when I
pointed out that after all these posts, we still don't know what diet
Palmer was following. And that in his first post Palmer claimed his
wife was somewhere around 75-100g of carbs per day, then in another
post he says it was 20g. Some of us see things like that, citations
from the PCRM, and begin to have doubts.

You are so full of [censored], dude. Palmer told me in an e-mail what happened.
Had you asked him nicely instead of addressing him like he was a liar, he
might have told you. I know from what he said that he didn't say things in
an understandable way. Had you shown him some respect and asked simple
questions, you would have got respectful answers. Since he has what he
feels are the answers he was seeking, thanks to Roger, he indicated he was
leaving. Shame on you, you fool. I doubt he'll ever come here again for
any reason, and I frankly don't blame him. Some of you people need your
heads examined. His wife was in pain, and he was simply looking for someone
to give him an answer. The answer he got wasn't what he thought it was, but
his claiming that it was ketosis was based on his lack of understanding.
His citations from groups you are suspicious of was the result of him
desperately looking for an answer none of you were willing to provide. When
it comes to knowing as much as you claim to know, he was lacking. Now since
he has left, I am not inclined to provide you with the answers to your
questions. I'm satisfied that he was not trolling. If you want to believe
that he was, feel free. I couldn't care less.

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I

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said I had had the same experience. Some of you jumped on me. I flamed
your ass good. Don't like it? Tough. You're just a name on a screen,
little boy. Now just don't reply to this because you're obviously still

too

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stupid to get it through your thick skull that the issue is over.

If it's over, then why are you posting this?

Because you keep on posting yourself. Accept that there's nothing more to
say but endless drivel, and I'll stop replying to it with more endless
drivel.

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Palmer

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got his answer and indicated to me in e-mail that he wasn't going to

stick

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around and reply to all your ridiculous [censored]. I've been replying to

it

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because I can't stand people like you.

Or Marengo, Tunder, Saffire, Wayne.... All regulars here who have
contributed a lot more to this newsgroup than you and seem to be able
to get along.

Who cares who's contributed to what? After this show of moronic stupidity
on your parts, what possible care in the world would I have in learning more
from any of you? Afterall, it was Roger who answered our questions, not
you.

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I probably wouldn't have thought

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twice about this guy had it not been for the fact that I had the same

thing

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happen to me. And then to watch you pathetic people swarm around him

like

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you were actually important or something, that's enough reason to draw

my

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guns and start shooting. Now [censored]. Issue over. Drop it.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

If you're so smart, how come you're still fat, while those you hurl
obscenities at here aren't?

If you're so smart, how come your wife is over here giving me head? Maybe
you should have bought that penis pump like she suggested.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

MDS said:

You are so full of [censored], dude. Palmer told me in an e-mail what happened.

There you go again. More totally baseless vulgarity. Do you know how
newsgroups work? You can read posts yourself without "Palmer",
telling you what happened. Show me where I attacked Palmer before you
unleashed your obscenities at me. Show me where I even MADE ANY POST
AT ALL IN THAT ENTIRE THREAD that was started by Palmer before you used
obscenities. You can't, because it did not happen. But if you
look, you will find plenty of your obscenities directed at multiple
folks here, long before I ever made a post at all.

Quoted message said:

Had you asked him nicely instead of addressing him like he was a liar, he
might have told you. I know from what he said that he didn't say things in
an understandable way. Had you shown him some respect and asked simple
questions, you would have got respectful answers.

Again, I never made a post in that thread prior to your obscenities.
And I see lots of regulars here that did ask him legitimate questions
to try to find out what exactly he and his wife were doing. And
after days and 75 posts, we still don;'t know what the hell he or his
wife were doing. Is he that incapable of answering simple questions?
He seems able to find the PCRM website, but tells us one post his wife
is at 75-100g of carbs, next it's 20g. And does that justify your
continuing to hurl angry obscenities at many of the regulars here?

Since he has what he

Quoted message said:

feels are the answers he was seeking, thanks to Roger, he indicated he was
leaving. Shame on you, you fool. I doubt he'll ever come here again for
any reason, and I frankly don't blame him. Some of you people need your
heads examined.

No great loss. Since you can't get along with many of us here, if you
make the same decision, you won't be missed either.

His wife was in pain, and he was simply looking for someone

Quoted message said:

to give him an answer. The answer he got wasn't what he thought it was, but
his claiming that it was ketosis was based on his lack of understanding.

His lack of understanding? How about your own, where you agreed with
his claim that the pain was due to ketosis:

"In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal
pain as a
potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two things. First,
as the
information itself seems to indicate, only a small minority have
experienced
this. Second, you can count me in that small minority because the same

thing happened to me the first and last time I did the induction phase.

Quoted message said:

His citations from groups you are suspicious of was the result of him
desperately looking for an answer none of you were willing to provide. When
it comes to knowing as much as you claim to know, he was lacking. Now since
he has left, I am not inclined to provide you with the answers to your
questions. I'm satisfied that he was not trolling. If you want to believe
that he was, feel free. I couldn't care less.

I never claimed to know much. I only claimed that I've done LC for a
very long time and I'm not obese, while you are. And obviously you do
care, cause you keep posting.

[email hidden] wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Again, I never made a post in that thread prior to your obscenities.
And I see lots of regulars here that did ask him legitimate questions
to try to find out what exactly he and his wife were doing. And
after days and 75 posts, we still don;'t know what the hell he or his
wife were doing. Is he that incapable of answering simple
questions? He seems able to find the PCRM website, but tells us one
post his wife
is at 75-100g of carbs, next it's 20g. And does that justify your
continuing to hurl angry obscenities at many of the regulars here?

Well he'll find out soon enough if Palmer was trolling. He's over in
alt.support.diabeties now with a mysterious 1 foot by 2 foot discoloration
on his leg that he's had for 7 years (from scratching an itch). Amazing that
he was "just recently diagnosed with diabeties" after having such a massive
bruise for so many years that wouldn't go away. I'm also amazed that the
emergency room that he went to 3 years ago for his horrible stomach pains
caused by ketosis didn't find it with all the tests they ran.

Maybe MDS will take his wealth of knowledge, compassion, patience, and
understanding back
over there and help that poor man out!

MDS said:

I must admit that I'm rather surprised that so many people here overlooked
where Palmer said he was on a low-carb diet that wasn't Atkins.

Let's be clear: Palmer said in his first post that he's tried Atkins 3
times. The first two times, he said he experienced abdominal pain. The
third time he didn't. The fourth time he tried LC, he said it wasn't
Atkins but that he did have abdominal pain.

FWIW, the majority of newbies posting here with atypical claims about
Atkins or LC side effects are found to be following their own,
inaccurate idea of Atkins or other LC plans.

Cate

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MDS said:

You are so full of [censored], dude. Palmer told me in an e-mail what

happened.

Quoted message said:

There you go again. More totally baseless vulgarity. Do you know how
newsgroups work? You can read posts yourself without "Palmer",
telling you what happened. Show me where I attacked Palmer before you
unleashed your obscenities at me. Show me where I even MADE ANY POST
AT ALL IN THAT ENTIRE THREAD that was started by Palmer before you used
obscenities. You can't, because it did not happen. But if you
look, you will find plenty of your obscenities directed at multiple
folks here, long before I ever made a post at all.

Quoted message said:

Had you asked him nicely instead of addressing him like he was a liar,

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

might have told you. I know from what he said that he didn't say things

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an understandable way. Had you shown him some respect and asked simple
questions, you would have got respectful answers.

Again, I never made a post in that thread prior to your obscenities.
And I see lots of regulars here that did ask him legitimate questions
to try to find out what exactly he and his wife were doing. And
after days and 75 posts, we still don;'t know what the hell he or his
wife were doing. Is he that incapable of answering simple questions?
He seems able to find the PCRM website, but tells us one post his wife
is at 75-100g of carbs, next it's 20g. And does that justify your
continuing to hurl angry obscenities at many of the regulars here?

Since he has what he

Quoted message said:

feels are the answers he was seeking, thanks to Roger, he indicated he

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

leaving. Shame on you, you fool. I doubt he'll ever come here again

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any reason, and I frankly don't blame him. Some of you people need your
heads examined.

No great loss. Since you can't get along with many of us here, if you
make the same decision, you won't be missed either.

His wife was in pain, and he was simply looking for someone

Quoted message said:

to give him an answer. The answer he got wasn't what he thought it was,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

his claiming that it was ketosis was based on his lack of understanding.

His lack of understanding? How about your own, where you agreed with
his claim that the pain was due to ketosis:

"In light of the information Palmer posted showing severe abdominal
pain as a
potential side effect of ketosis, I'd like to say two things. First,
as the
information itself seems to indicate, only a small minority have
experienced
this. Second, you can count me in that small minority because the same

thing happened to me the first and last time I did the induction phase.

Quoted message said:

His citations from groups you are suspicious of was the result of him
desperately looking for an answer none of you were willing to provide.

When

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it comes to knowing as much as you claim to know, he was lacking. Now

since

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he has left, I am not inclined to provide you with the answers to your
questions. I'm satisfied that he was not trolling. If you want to

believe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that he was, feel free. I couldn't care less.

I never claimed to know much. I only claimed that I've done LC for a
very long time and I'm not obese, while you are. And obviously you do
care, cause you keep posting.

As much as you care? You keep responding to my responses like some
four-eyed nerd who keeps thinking to himself, "Gee, I'll show him! I'll
kept throwing his weight at him." In the meantime you look like an ass
because eventually I'll reach my ideal weight. And then what will you do,
peckerhead? "Um, gee, maybe I'll hurl his past weight at him." LOL!
You're so far the biggest moron here.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

MDS said:

As much as you care? You keep responding to my responses like some
four-eyed nerd who keeps thinking to himself, "Gee, I'll show him! I'll
kept throwing his weight at him." In the meantime you look like an ass
because eventually I'll reach my ideal weight. And then what will you do,
peckerhead? "Um, gee, maybe I'll hurl his past weight at him." LOL!
You're so far the biggest moron here.

--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)

But I'm not the one claiming it's over and I don't care, you are, yet
you keep posting. I'll leave it for others here to decide who the
moron is.