Pace for your long runs?

Janithor said:

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I ran my first and only marathon at around a 9:08 pace.
It was the CIM, which is net downhill about 300 feet IIRC.
I'm starting up again for San Fran. What should my target
pace be on my long runs? I seem to settle around 10:00,
on gravel. I've only been running for about 3 weeks, so
I started from 4 months of being a fatbody to 30 miles in my
first week, I'm putting on about 3 miles/week. Obviously I'm
not pushing myself to my max like I did at the marathon,
I'm just looking for a decent pace so I don't injure myself
while I ramp up the milage.

There are a couple of schools of thought on this. Some runners like to
settle in on a pace that is 1 minute slower than their goal marathon
pace. Pfitzinger/Doulglas (the plan I used) recommend 10 to 20% slower
than goal marathon race pace. So if your goal is a 3:30 marathon, long
run pace is around 8:48 to 9:36/mi.

Another way to do it is go by effort by using a heart rate monitor. Set
your long run pace at 73 to 83% of MHR or 65 to 78% of heart rate
reserve. And keep in mind the impact that "cardiac drift" can have on
your long run, which means starting out at the low end of the zone and
ending up near the high end.

--
Phil M.

Janithor said:

I ran my first and only marathon at around a 9:08 pace. It was the CIM,
which is net downhill about 300 feet IIRC. I'm starting up again for
San Fran. What should my target pace be on my long runs? I seem to
settle around 10:00, on gravel. I've only been running for about 3
weeks, so I started from 4 months of being a fatbody to 30 miles in my
first week, I'm putting on about 3 miles/week. Obviously I'm not
pushing myself to my max like I did at the marathon, I'm just looking
for a decent pace so I don't injure myself while I ramp up the milage.

10:00 sounds OK, so if that pace also feels good, then it's fine.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Janithor wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

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I ran my first and only marathon at around a 9:08 pace. It was the CIM,
which is net downhill about 300 feet IIRC. I'm starting up again for
San Fran. What should my target pace be on my long runs? I seem to
settle around 10:00, on gravel. I've only been running for about 3
weeks, so I started from 4 months of being a fatbody to 30 miles in my
first week, I'm putting on about 3 miles/week. Obviously I'm not
pushing myself to my max like I did at the marathon, I'm just looking
for a decent pace so I don't injure myself while I ramp up the milage.

For long runs, it depends on your recovery. If your long run leaves you
sluggish for a few days, then you should probably go a bit slower the next
time, or take walk breaks during the run. If your legs feel fresh the 2nd
day after a long run, then you can go slightly faster the next time.

As Phil suggested, you can use heart rate as an indicator, though going by
feel is best in my opinion. If you have good legs on a particular day, run a
bit faster, but don't overdo it. The exception is the long run, you should
hold back your pace for the first hour, then you'll settle into your long
training pace. On other days, if your legs don't feel fresh, go very easy or
add walk breaks, particularly for long runs, regardless of what the heart
rate says.

-Tony

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Phil M. said:

Janithor said:

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I ran my first and only marathon at around a 9:08 pace.
It was the CIM, which is net downhill about 300 feet IIRC.
I'm starting up again for San Fran. What should my target
pace be on my long runs? I seem to settle around 10:00,
on gravel. I've only been running for about 3 weeks, so
I started from 4 months of being a fatbody to 30 miles in my
first week, I'm putting on about 3 miles/week. Obviously I'm
not pushing myself to my max like I did at the marathon,
I'm just looking for a decent pace so I don't injure myself
while I ramp up the milage.

There are a couple of schools of thought on this. Some runners like to
settle in on a pace that is 1 minute slower than their goal marathon
pace. Pfitzinger/Doulglas (the plan I used) recommend 10 to 20% slower
than goal marathon race pace. So if your goal is a 3:30 marathon, long
run pace is around 8:48 to 9:36/mi.

Another way to do it is go by effort by using a heart rate monitor. Set
your long run pace at 73 to 83% of MHR or 65 to 78% of heart rate
reserve. And keep in mind the impact that "cardiac drift" can have on
your long run, which means starting out at the low end of the zone and
ending up near the high end.

Thank you. Yes, my goal is 3:30, although I don't think I will have
been training enough to hit that at the end of July. That's a big chunk
of time to lop off. My time really surprised me at the CIM, because I
had been running my long runs around 10:30. I was thinking my long runs
should be the same time as the marathon pace since the distance is shorter.

x-no-archive: yes

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Janithor said:

I ran my first and only marathon at around a 9:08 pace. It was the CIM,
which is net downhill about 300 feet IIRC. I'm starting up again for
San Fran. What should my target pace be on my long runs? I seem to
settle around 10:00, on gravel. I've only been running for about 3
weeks, so I started from 4 months of being a fatbody to 30 miles in my
first week, I'm putting on about 3 miles/week. Obviously I'm not
pushing myself to my max like I did at the marathon, I'm just looking
for a decent pace so I don't injure myself while I ramp up the milage.

10:00 sounds OK, so if that pace also feels good, then it's fine.

Cheers,

So you agree that it's OK for the long run pace to be slower than your
marathon pace?

Thing is, I want to bring my time down. CIM is an easy run, it's mostly
downhill. We go over the bridge in San Francisco, and my friend tells
me if there is a wind I'm going to hating life. Right now I'm focusing
on getting my milage back up as much as possible without injury. I'd
like to get to 3:30, but that would mean dropping my pace from ~9:08 to
8:00. That seems like a pretty drop.

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Tony said:

Janithor wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

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I ran my first and only marathon at around a 9:08 pace. It was the CIM,
which is net downhill about 300 feet IIRC. I'm starting up again for
San Fran. What should my target pace be on my long runs? I seem to
settle around 10:00, on gravel. I've only been running for about 3
weeks, so I started from 4 months of being a fatbody to 30 miles in my
first week, I'm putting on about 3 miles/week. Obviously I'm not
pushing myself to my max like I did at the marathon, I'm just looking
for a decent pace so I don't injure myself while I ramp up the milage.

For long runs, it depends on your recovery. If your long run leaves you
sluggish for a few days, then you should probably go a bit slower the next
time, or take walk breaks during the run. If your legs feel fresh the 2nd
day after a long run, then you can go slightly faster the next time.

As Phil suggested, you can use heart rate as an indicator, though going by
feel is best in my opinion. If you have good legs on a particular day, run a
bit faster, but don't overdo it. The exception is the long run, you should
hold back your pace for the first hour, then you'll settle into your long
training pace. On other days, if your legs don't feel fresh, go very easy or
add walk breaks, particularly for long runs, regardless of what the heart
rate says.

-Tony

I'm feeling OK on my long runs. It usually takes me the first mile to
warm up. I started running again by working on the treadmill. I
usually do speedwork because I'm so bored on a treadmill that I want to
get it over with as quickly as possible. That was making it tough to
get my milage up, so now I'm focusing on long slow distance, and trying
to ramp up milage. I just didn't know if it was normal for the pace on
my long runs to be slower than my marathon pace.

Janithor said:

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Phil M. said:

There are a couple of schools of thought on this. Some runners like

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

settle in on a pace that is 1 minute slower than their goal

marathon

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pace. Pfitzinger/Doulglas (the plan I used) recommend 10 to 20%

slower

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than goal marathon race pace. So if your goal is a 3:30 marathon,

long

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

run pace is around 8:48 to 9:36/mi.

Another way to do it is go by effort by using a heart rate monitor.

Set

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your long run pace at 73 to 83% of MHR or 65 to 78% of heart rate
reserve. And keep in mind the impact that "cardiac drift" can have

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your long run, which means starting out at the low end of the zone

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ending up near the high end.

Thank you. Yes, my goal is 3:30, although I don't think I will have
been training enough to hit that at the end of July. That's a big

chunk

Quoted message said:

of time to lop off.

That's a good reason to do some shorter races to test your fitness and
determine a good marathon pace. There are several online calculators
that allow you to plug in your event and time and then predict the
possible outcome of a longer race. For example, go to
http://tinyurl.com/34haz, put in a 10K time of 44:45, that gives you a
marathon time of 3:30:00. Of course, this assumes you've put in the
training necessary for a marathon (long runs, LT pace runs, MP pace
runs, mileage, bla-bla-bla).

--
Phil M.

My time really surprised me at the CIM, because I

Quoted message said:

had been running my long runs around 10:30. I was thinking my long

runs

Quoted message said:

should be the same time as the marathon pace since the distance is

shorter.

That would be a tough workout and possibly set you up for injury. It's
a good idea to ocasionally do part of your long run at marathon pace.
Mostly to get a feel for what that is like.

--
Phil M.

Janithor said:

So you agree that it's OK for the long run pace to be slower than your
marathon pace?

Yes. Nearly all competitive runners do their long runs much slower than
marathon pace. It's possible to run long at marathon pace of course (after
all, you do so on race day) but it takes a lot of effort and it's easy to
overtrain if you attempt it.

For the most part, the only way to do your long runs at marathon pace is to
run the marathon slowly. So the reason beginners often do long runs at the
same pace they run the marathon is that they are running the marathon at a
relatively slow pace (e.g. at least 30 minutes slower than double their half
marathon time)

Quoted message said:

Thing is, I want to bring my time down.

Attempting to bring your mile time down by running a 3/4 mile time trial at
mile goal pace every two weeks would probably work quite well (Roger Bannister
trained along these lines). But you can't do that for a marathon, you'll just
burn out.

Different workouts address different components of fitness. You will improve
your fatigue resistance by doing long runs, even if they're at a slow pace. By
doing these, you are teaching your body to not choke on distance.

But to get comfortable at low speeds, it helps to be comfortable at high
speeds. Put it this way -- if one guy can do a half marathon in 88 minutes,
the other in 84 minutes, which one has a better shot at a sub 3 ? Use tempo
runs and interval workouts to improve your endurance, because if you get good
at the tempo and interval workouts, your goal pace will feel like a comfortable
jog. And if you have done the long runs, you can sustain that "comfortable jog"
for a long distance.

Quoted message said:

CIM is an easy run, it's mostly
downhill. We go over the bridge in San Francisco, and my friend tells
me if there is a wind I'm going to hating life. Right now I'm focusing
on getting my milage back up as much as possible without injury. I'd
like to get to 3:30, but that would mean dropping my pace from ~9:08 to
8:00. That seems like a pretty drop.

You need to be capable of a 1:40 half for a long shot at this, and a a 1:35
half for a good shot at it. The best indicator (IMO) for half marathon
performance is a long tempo run (~30 min or so). Forget about speed on the
long runs, it's both futile and outright harmful to attempt to do a long run
at a fast pace. Use tempos to improve your speed-endurance instead.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Forget about speed on the long runs, it's both
futile and outright harmful to attempt to do a
long run at a fast pace. Use tempos to improve
your speed-endurance instead.

Yup. I think a lot of runners (myself sometimes) get caught up in being
too critical of their long run pace. They end up running too fast for
too long. That's why I think shorter races and an ocassional MP run (as
a fraction of the long run) are good for building confidence.

--
Phil M.

x-no-archive: yes

Phil M. said:

That's a good reason to do some shorter races to test your fitness and
determine a good marathon pace. There are several online calculators
that allow you to plug in your event and time and then predict the
possible outcome of a longer race. For example, go to
http://tinyurl.com/34haz, put in a 10K time of 44:45, that gives you a
marathon time of 3:30:00. Of course, this assumes you've put in the
training necessary for a marathon (long runs, LT pace runs, MP pace
runs, mileage, bla-bla-bla).

No 10K's immediately in my area, but there is a 5-mile run I just signed
up for on Sunday. I'm debating between a 1/2 marathon vs. a 25K run in
the beginning of June. The 25K is actually a climb of Mt. Diablo, I
think it goes up 4500 ft, which sounds pretty wicked brutal, but for
some reason sounds appealing.

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Donovan Rebbechi said:

You need to be capable of a 1:40 half for a long shot at this, and a a 1:35
half for a good shot at it. The best indicator (IMO) for half marathon
performance is a long tempo run (~30 min or so). Forget about speed on the
long runs, it's both futile and outright harmful to attempt to do a long run
at a fast pace. Use tempos to improve your speed-endurance instead.

OK, the marathon is July 31. There is a 1/2 marathon at the beginning
of June that I am looking at. Question is, for the marathon, I'm going
to taper my milage down the last month, and hardly run at all the week
of the marathon. I can't afford to cut my milage like to run the 1/2
marathon, I have to keep my milage up. So how do you run interim races,
or do you just accept them as training runs, and not taper your milage
to try for your ultimate best time for the 1/2 marathon? Am I making sense?

Janithor said:

OK, the marathon is July 31. There is a 1/2 marathon at the beginning
of June that I am looking at. Question is, for the marathon, I'm going
to taper my milage down the last month, and hardly run at all the week
of the marathon. I can't afford to cut my milage like to run the 1/2
marathon, I have to keep my milage up. So how do you run interim races,
or do you just accept them as training runs, and not taper your milage
to try for your ultimate best time for the 1/2 marathon? Am I making sense?

Run the half marathon as an all-out race effort. It's true that you can't do
much of a taper for it. Just have an easy day before it.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

OK, the marathon is July 31. There is a 1/2 marathon at
the beginning of June that I am looking at. Question is,
for the marathon, I'm going to taper my milage down the
last month, and hardly run at all the week of the marathon.

Are you following a plan from a book or coach?

Quoted message said:

I can't afford to cut my milage like to run the 1/2
marathon, I have to keep my milage up. So how do you run
interim races, or do you just accept them as training runs,
and not taper your milage to try for your ultimate best
time for the 1/2 marathon? Am I making sense?

You're making perfect sense. ;-) Like Donovan said, tune-up races
should be at an all-out effort. In order to keep your mileage up and at
the same time give the half marathon your best effort, you can prepare
for the race with a "mini-taper" of 4 to 6 days. Overall, this can
represent a training block of 10 days or so, consisting of 4 to 6 days
of tapering, the race itself, and several days recovery before the next
hard training session. Since you're training through the race, treating
it as an all-out effort done while fatigued, you should put your
finishing time in context of the situation.

Minimum days before the half marathon
VO2 max interval - 5
Tempo run - 4
Long run - 4

--
Phil M.

x-no-archive: yes

Phil M. said:

Quoted message said:

OK, the marathon is July 31. There is a 1/2 marathon at
the beginning of June that I am looking at. Question is,
for the marathon, I'm going to taper my milage down the
last month, and hardly run at all the week of the marathon.

Are you following a plan from a book or coach?

I read a book last year. I was pretty happy with my result, also
learned from experience on my long runs - drink water, don't wear
cotton, etc...I'm adding don't have milk with cereal in the morning
either. I don't usually eat cereal, but bought some last week. Last 3
runs I've had a horrible case of the runs, so to speak. I went 13 miles
on Tuesday, could barely finish the last 6.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't afford to cut my milage like to run the 1/2
marathon, I have to keep my milage up. So how do you run
interim races, or do you just accept them as training runs,
and not taper your milage to try for your ultimate best
time for the 1/2 marathon? Am I making sense?

You're making perfect sense. ;-) Like Donovan said, tune-up races
should be at an all-out effort. In order to keep your mileage up and at
the same time give the half marathon your best effort, you can prepare
for the race with a "mini-taper" of 4 to 6 days. Overall, this can
represent a training block of 10 days or so, consisting of 4 to 6 days
of tapering, the race itself, and several days recovery before the next
hard training session. Since you're training through the race, treating
it as an all-out effort done while fatigued, you should put your
finishing time in context of the situation.

Minimum days before the half marathon
VO2 max interval - 5
Tempo run - 4
Long run - 4

OK, this makes sense. Thank you to both of you.

Janithor said:

I'm adding don't have milk with cereal in the morning
either. I don't usually eat cereal, but bought some last week.
Last 3 runs I've had a horrible case of the runs, so to speak.

Soy milk, oat milk, rice milk, or (my fave) almond milk. These may be
easier for your tummy to handle.

Though I prefer either nothing or at most a slice or two of toast
before a long run or race, and also coffee as a preemptive strike to
clear out the ol' digestive system. Best to feel light and not have
anything sloshing around in there.

Quoted message said:

I read a book last year. I was pretty happy with my result, also
learned from experience on my long runs - drink water, don't wear
cotton, etc...I'm adding don't have milk with cereal in the morning
either. I don't usually eat cereal, but bought some last week. Last

3

Quoted message said:

runs I've had a horrible case of the runs, so to speak. I went 13

miles

Quoted message said:

on Tuesday, could barely finish the last 6.

I'm usually careful what I eat the day before a long run. Don't eat
anythying unusual. I try to avoid dairy products as well. Everybody's
different, so it's good that you're figuring out what you can tolerate.
That way you can avoid any suprises come race day.

--
Phil M.

Janithor said:

So you agree that it's OK for the long run pace to be slower than your
marathon pace?

FWIF my current marathon pace is 7'/mile, my basic long run pace is nearer
9'/mile (based on HRav of 70% on the long runs, 86% for the marathon).

Maybe you could throw in a 20' period, then 2x15', then 2x20' etc at
marathon pace in the middle of your long runs if you feel up to it and want
to get the feeling of race pace.

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive: yes

Phil M. said:

That's a good reason to do some shorter races to test your fitness and
determine a good marathon pace. There are several online calculators
that allow you to plug in your event and time and then predict the
possible outcome of a longer race. For example, go to
http://tinyurl.com/34haz, put in a 10K time of 44:45, that gives you

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

marathon time of 3:30:00. Of course, this assumes you've put in the
training necessary for a marathon (long runs, LT pace runs, MP pace
runs, mileage, bla-bla-bla).

No 10K's immediately in my area, but there is a 5-mile run I just

signed

Quoted message said:

up for on Sunday. I'm debating between a 1/2 marathon vs. a 25K run in
the beginning of June. The 25K is actually a climb of Mt. Diablo, I
think it goes up 4500 ft, which sounds pretty wicked brutal, but for
some reason sounds appealing.

Probably this one http://tinyurl.com/asvfs
I used to live in Danville, CA., a few miles from Mt. Diablo. It's been a
while, but that sounds like a tough climb.

--
Phil M.

x-no-archive: yes

steve common said:

Janithor said:

So you agree that it's OK for the long run pace to be slower than your
marathon pace?

FWIF my current marathon pace is 7'/mile, my basic long run pace is nearer
9'/mile (based on HRav of 70% on the long runs, 86% for the marathon).

Maybe you could throw in a 20' period, then 2x15', then 2x20' etc at
marathon pace in the middle of your long runs if you feel up to it and want
to get the feeling of race pace.

OK, this gives me hope. I really want to break 3:30, but I'll have to
take a minute off my pace. My long pace worried me, I thought I might
be going too slow.