overtraining possible with my job ?

It is really hard to say without seeing what days a week you do your hard interval training vs. what days you do your A group ride. 1500 miles in 4 months is not an overwhelming amount of miles that screams over training, but if all you are doing is high intensity then you could certainly be feeling the increased fatigue from the lack of lower intensity "easy spin rides" that flush the lactic acid. This coupled with the fact that you are on your legs all day could be the problem. The other thing is your ability both physical and tactical may not be enough to hang in the A group.

To me it sounds like you are doing intervals to train yourself to do more intervals in your A group ride, because a hard paced A ride is really just more intervals, this won't work you need easy rides. I use real fast paced group rides/club races as interval training, but I DO NOT do additional interval training throughout the week, unless I have some specific goal like overreaching for a big tapper or want to see how my legs respond to the stress, most of the time this is not the case.

Another thing is getting dropped if you are riding tactically efficient and are pushing yourself to the absolute limit is not necessarily a bad thing, because to get the maximum benefit from such a ride you should be going right to the limit, getting dropped just means you went to far. When I use group rides as interval training I will do the longest hardest pulls I can, leaving just enough to barely get back on and then do it all over again (i.e. an interval). Done right and this can be more effective than doing intervals alone because many times the will to survive causes you (or at least should cause you) to push yourself beyond what you ever would alone. The difference for you may be that your interval is done by just rolling through the front and getting back on or even just sitting on the back and hanging on for the surges, either way use the pain to make you push harder and don't let the lactic acid cloud your thinking and talk yourself into letting up. At the end of the day will and strength may get you so far and you may get dropped. Oh well, now you know the line you are trying to walk, get a good recovery and try again..

Try replacing your intervals with recovery rides and just doing the group rides for a while and see how it works for you.

If I read correctly you have only been cycling for 4 months as well, so any type of significant mileage as well as pushing yourself to what it takes to hang with the fast group is new to your body. Also being that you are new to cycling your tactical efficiency is likely lacking causing you to work harder in the group. Be patient and allow some recovery, before long you will be on the front of the A group!!

You've only been riding four months and only 1500 miles, but the average guy in your A ride have likely been doing 1000 miles per month all summer for at least a few years. I would just be patient and keep it up. You will get better.

Also, if you want to get better faster you should add one or two more days of rides in the 30-40 mile range that are NOT intervals -- just solid steady tempo riding (avoid stoplights and stop signs and long descents as much as possible). Go a little harder on the hills but keep up the effort on the descents so you don't get a chance to rest. Go on the easy side if the ride is between harder days. Go a little harder (but not hard) if it's before a day of rest. This will build core endurance so that you are stronger for longer on your other rides.

It is about 50% harder to ride at 21mph than to ride at 18mph.

I would suggest going back the the B rides and riding in the wind for the entire ride. Sit at the front and stay there, if they let you. If they won't, sit off the back - 30yds. Just a nice steady pace.

When you can do that effort on every ride, move up to the A rides. Sit in the draft. Suck on the wheels. When you can do that for the entire ride, it is time to try it at the front. Just short periods at first.

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You already have one long restful ride a week. You don't need more. I would stop doing the hard efforts on the track.

You might need better food and hydration handling for the A rides.

Thanks. I just feel my legs giving out 10 miles into the faster 21+ mph group rides. I wish I had an office job at times, because i believe this inhome delivery stuff is for the birds and really hurts my training. I can pull the B ride at 19pmg average for the entire 35 miles, and then still sprint the last 1 mile and hold 26 mph on the flats... but the A's are just flat out hauling in my opionion. Tuesday night we were going 32mph on the flats....after about 1 mile of that, my legs were screaming to stop...

Your problem is that 32mph is not 21mph.

Find a friendlier group. One that rides at 21mph on a 21mph ride.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by ridinbikes247
[IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
Tuesday night we were going 32mph on the flats....after about 1 mile of that, my legs were screaming to stop...

That is when you focus an push through it, the pace will slow, everyone else is hurting too. And if not go out in style.

I race in our A group in our club races and these are actually races, but with 8-10 guys and 4 or 5 of us that are real strong and do the majority of the work it tends to be more like a really hard group ride with a few of us going pull for pull and the others just sitting in and pulling when they can. Well tonight after 25 miles of hell a guy who is real strong from 2k out made his move. I am a sprinter so I knew I had to hold that wheel, sure I could have let someone else do the work, but looking around I was not real sure anyone would and in these moments there has to be more of a reaction than a decision. So 2k out I am 2nd wheel @ 35mph into the wind, looking back and seeing me plus about 4 others on my wheel, he lets up. No one else wants to pull and I am cooked, so I do a quick pull and sit up and then the guy goes again this time taking another sprinter with him. I am now at my limit and we are 400+ meters, but I have to do everything I can to close the gap, so I put my head down and take myself to a place I have never been before. 33mph and 200 meters out and I am making ground, this and the fact that I can now see the finish makes me forget all of the pain. My hope is now that we went so hard everyone behind me cracked, but just then I hear the voice of the strongest guy in our race "pull !!" (WTF I am beyond dead and am doing 33mph). Now I know my only hope is to push harder and hope they can't get around in the last 100 meters. I dig in and huge wads of snot suddenly blow out of both of my nostrils, the two behind me go around just as we pass the two off of the front, I take 3rd. After the finish I honestly thought I was going to fall over for the first time ever, it literally takes 1 mile of 10mph before I can even talk or clean the snot off of my face. That is the type of effort it takes sometimes and you can never duplicate it on your own, typing this I am certain that I have physically put out the hardest effort of the year, not sure about the power, but my PE was off of the charts. I feel great, like cleaning out the pipes.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by ridinbikes247 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Tuesday night we were going 32mph on the flats....after about 1 mile of that, my legs were screaming to stop...

Quote: Originally Posted by bgoetz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

That is when you focus an push through it, the pace will slow, everyone else is hurting too. And if not go out in style.

... 33mph and 200 meters out ...

32-33mph is a bunch of fat middle aged old guys on $8000 bikes.

When I was 58-60 and getting back into shape, I would do 32-33mph alone to get out of the way of traffic. I expect most serious bicyclists can.

The reality is that if your legs are screaming and you are going above 30mph on public roads, it is best to ease up and pay attention to the roads. There are no prizes for riding fast.

---

I had done 1500' of hard climbing (10% grade) on Thursday. I was so tired on Friday I put off my 2000' of hard climbing (15% grade) until the afternoon when I got tired of watching paint dry.

I was out today - Saturday. Just an easy day. I passed 3 guys who looked like racers (shaved legs, expensive bikes, matching outfits) at a traffic light where they appeared to be wasting time. They came past going fast a mile later. I was tired and just out for an easy day. But it was time for me to kick my cadence up to 120. I caught them a couple miles later. Apparently they had some need to pass me at high speed and then ride at 80-90w. I sat well behind them. There was no need to pass and make a race out an easy ride. They turned off my route a mile later.

Got my heart rate above 150 for a whole 43 seconds. Just an easy 4 hour ride.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

32-33mph is a bunch of fat middle aged old guys on $8000 bikes.

Yeah ones with motors. I don't know to many guys that fit this description that can hold that pace for any significant amount of time. Maybe with the wind to their back and fresh legs and for a 10 second burst, but into the wind at the end of a hard race, for multiple minutes, not a chance...

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by bgoetz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Yeah ones with motors. I don't know to many guys that fit this description that can hold that pace for any significant amount of time. Maybe with the wind to their back and fresh legs and for a 10 second burst, but into the wind at the end of a hard race, for multiple minutes, not a chance...

ridinbikes247 can ride at that speed for a minute or so. And he has a very short history of bicycling.

You never said anything about into the wind or multiple minutes. Must have been through the snow and uphill to. But you were in a big group of strong riders. 400 meters at 30+mph takes you multiple minutes?

Learn to do math. Learn to accept that a lot of guys can ride over 30mph.

og->When you were 58-60? Fat middle age guys on $8000 bikes can do 30-35 miles per hour?

Sure...

-js

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Learn to do math. Learn to accept that a lot of guys can ride over 30mph.

If you learned to read you would see that all of this started at about 2k out, which would be multiple minutes at that effort. You would also see that it was into the wind, as I stated. The funny thing is that the speed really is not the point, it is the effort, but for some reason you felt the need to pull that out and try to create a debate over it, well debate away, I am done with you. Frankly I could give a damn what other guys can do, including yourself, at the end of the day when I am the one crossing the finish line first and they/you are not, what else matters??

I swear, I was a firm believer in respecting elders and that people get wiser with age, but I have 0 respect for you and you now make me believe that as you get older maturity actually begins reverting back.

I didnt mean to start a fight between you guys.
As far as our group, they do hold 30-32 mph on the flats, no head wind. The first 10 minutes is warm up for our A group which cruise between 20-22 mph. Hill climbing is never below 16mph. If the road is under 3 miles, we ride double file with the lead guys pulling us between 30-32 mph.. thats roughly 5 minutes of 30 mph pulling.... what slows our average down to a 22+ is the 5-10 miles of hills where we are doing 16-17..
I havent done the group ride in 2 weeks now and been doing intervals tuesdays and thursday...... is this considered a decent train ? It is peformed on my local high school track. completely flat, no wind - heart rate monitor hasnt been used because my little boy took the watch..
**Repeat 3 times -60 seconds ALL OUT on flat ground @ 25-27 mph
60 seconds recover @ 17 mph
**10 minute steady tempo @ 20mph
**Repeat 3 times - 20 second sprint up to 32mph and hold until 20 seconds is up
20 second recover @ 15 mph
**5 minute recovery @ 17 mph
Repeat 3 times - 60 seconds all out @ 25-27
60 seconds recover @ 17
5 minute recovery @ 17
Repeat 3 times - 20 second Sprint up to 32 and hold until 20 seconds is up
20 second recover
Cool down at 5 minutes @10 mph

It is not you or anything you posted, it is kinda the way these threads have been going lately. As far as your workout, everything that you are doing is short intervals that will be focused towards VO2 max. Your issue not being able to hold the group is likely more of a lactate threshold issue, so if you want to improve on that you would be better served doing longer intervals or at least incorporating them into your routine one of the two days. I would focus on anything from 8-20 minute intervals.

what should the recovery time be if I do a 5 minute interval ? 5 minute recovery ?
also, would it hurt to do 60 second sprint intervals,and then do 5 minute intervals in the same workout, or should I keep my short sprints in 1 day and my longer intervals on a opposite day ? ?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by ridinbikes247 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I didnt mean to start a fight between you guys.
As far as our group, they do hold 30-32 mph on the flats, no head wind. The first 10 minutes is warm up for our A group which cruise between 20-22 mph. Hill climbing is never below 16mph. If the road is under 3 miles, we ride double file with the lead guys pulling us between 30-32 mph.. thats roughly 5 minutes of 30 mph pulling.... what slows our average down to a 22+ is the 5-10 miles of hills where we are doing 16-17..
I havent done the group ride in 2 weeks now and been doing intervals tuesdays and thursday...... is this considered a decent train ? It is peformed on my local high school track. completely flat, no wind - heart rate monitor hasnt been used because my little boy took the watch..
**Repeat 3 times -60 seconds ALL OUT on flat ground @ 25-27 mph
60 seconds recover @ 17 mph
**10 minute steady tempo @ 20mph
**Repeat 3 times - 20 second sprint up to 32mph and hold until 20 seconds is up
20 second recover @ 15 mph
**5 minute recovery @ 17 mph
Repeat 3 times - 60 seconds all out @ 25-27
60 seconds recover @ 17
5 minute recovery @ 17
Repeat 3 times - 20 second Sprint up to 32 and hold until 20 seconds is up
20 second recover
Cool down at 5 minutes @10 mph

Drafting off of guys who are riding at 30-32mph is about the same as riding alone at 27mph. Since your group only rides at 30-32mph for 5 minutes, you need to be able to ride at 27mph for 5 minutes. Training seems straightforward: Go out and ride at 27mph for 5 minutes at a time.

But saying that the hills are what slow the group down seems to indicate that the riders doing the leading are way out of your class. I think you need an easier group. Until you can ride alone at 27mph for 5 minutes at a time.

I can ride alone at 27 mph for maybe 60 seconds.
I will work on my solo speed for the next few weeks and see how that does. 23-25 mph on the flats for 3-5 minutes is my max for now. So maybe I will just do repeats of that and throw in some hill climbing as well

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by ridinbikes247 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

what should the recovery time be if I do a 5 minute interval ? 5 minute recovery ?
also, would it hurt to do 60 second sprint intervals,and then do 5 minute intervals in the same workout, or should I keep my short sprints in 1 day and my longer intervals on a opposite day ? ?

ridin, personally I would split these up. Your 5 min interval intensity will definitely suffer trying to squeeze it all in together. Also, IMO the 60 second sprint interval (or shorter) is a honing tool when tapering in the weeks before an event. You may benefit from a longer FTP threshold interval of 10-20 minutes (I think someone else chymed in with that advice). It will go a long way in helping you hang with your group of hammerheads. For anywhere between 3-5 min intervals, I would do a 1:1 rest. i.e. 5 mins.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by ridinbikes247 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

what should the recovery time be if I do a 5 minute interval ? 5 minute recovery ?
also, would it hurt to do 60 second sprint intervals,and then do 5 minute intervals in the same workout, or should I keep my short sprints in 1 day and my longer intervals on a opposite day ? ?

An off-season of long 20 minute intervals will do wonders, I would do 2 in a session and split them with a 10 minute recovery. This time of year, short intervals just does not make much sense, even 5 minute intervals are a bit to short to really build a solid LT, IMO. So my suggestion is to drop all of the short intervals and stick with all longer intervals 2 days a week, recover the other days, keep this up on the trainer throughout the winter. Next season, about 1-2 months before everything gears up start doing the shorter intervals.