Outboard Bearings Not Durable?!

Quoted message said:

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]? Is
this due to non parallel bb shell faces or ?

Ugh... does the phrase "dramatic increase" and "short lifespan" not sound
like marketing spew to you??? The sentence is intended to make your current
equipment to feel inadequate and that you're missing out on something
better.

Notice "replace the bearings with our higher quality bearings" instead of
just mentioning the grade number. Why not other peoples' higher quality
bearings?

Haven't heard of any short-lifespan external BB problems at our shop. Only
thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish FSA BBs.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

<snippage of Phil's empiric evidence of external bb life>

Phil wrote, in part:

Quoted message said:

Only thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish FSA BBs.

Yah, got a FSA megaquad that I ripped out after one ride. Creaky,
squeaky POS.

D'ohBoy

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]? Is
this due to non parallel bb shell faces or ?

Ugh... does the phrase "dramatic increase" and "short lifespan" not sound
like marketing spew to you??? The sentence is intended to make your current
equipment to feel inadequate and that you're missing out on something
better.

Notice "replace the bearings with our higher quality bearings" instead of
just mentioning the grade number. Why not other peoples' higher quality
bearings?

Haven't heard of any short-lifespan external BB problems at our shop. Only
thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish FSA BBs.

It's true that as bike components go, outboard BB bearings in faced
shells wearing out doesn't seem to be much of an issue. The same is
true for most typical but nice quality cartridge BB's, hubs, etc.
However, if the difference that using the Phil bearings creates is
anywhere near to being on the order of the difference in lifespan
between the bearings in Phil stuff in general and those in almost
everything else, then is the term "somewhat short life span" really
such a poor choice?

Also, I'm not sure that all the outboard BB's are based around standard
bearings. Perhaps "our higher quality bearings" means that they're
making their own versions of proprietary bearings?

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]?
Is this due to non parallel BB shell faces or ?

Quoted message said:

Ugh... does the phrase "dramatic increase" and "short lifespan" not
sound like marketing spew to you??? The sentence is intended to
make your current equipment to feel inadequate and that you're
missing out on something better.

Quoted message said:

Notice "replace the bearings with our higher quality bearings"
instead of just mentioning the grade number. Why not other peoples'
higher quality bearings?

Quoted message said:

Haven't heard of any short-lifespan external BB problems at our
shop. Only thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish FSA
BBs.

I'm' less concerned about bearing durability than of the bearing cups,
that, from Shimano, are aluminum and screw into the same threads in
which previous steel BB cups had been inadequate for long life. The
left hand thread on the right side is used because this cup moves in
use and, without this thread, would unscrew. That it is moving means
that the aluminum threads instead of the BB shell steel threads will
most likely fail and do so faster than the BB threads did in the past
with hardened steel cups that were loaded only radially instead of by
canting radial loads of an outboard bearing.

Jobst Brandt

Jobst,

Most moderately priced bikes today, for better, or worst, have aluminum
alloy BB shells as well as aluminum alloy cups. Building and selling bikes
that last forever is not a priority for most bike manufacturers. So the new
design is worst only as you said by have "canting radial loads of an
outboard bearing" instead of only radial loads.

cel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]?
Is this due to non parallel BB shell faces or ?

Quoted message said:

Ugh... does the phrase "dramatic increase" and "short lifespan" not
sound like marketing spew to you??? The sentence is intended to
make your current equipment to feel inadequate and that you're
missing out on something better.

Quoted message said:

Notice "replace the bearings with our higher quality bearings"
instead of just mentioning the grade number. Why not other peoples'
higher quality bearings?

Quoted message said:

Haven't heard of any short-lifespan external BB problems at our
shop. Only thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish FSA
BBs.

I'm' less concerned about bearing durability than of the bearing cups,
that, from Shimano, are aluminum and screw into the same threads in
which previous steel BB cups had been inadequate for long life. The
left hand thread on the right side is used because this cup moves in
use and, without this thread, would unscrew. That it is moving means
that the aluminum threads instead of the BB shell steel threads will
most likely fail and do so faster than the BB threads did in the past
with hardened steel cups that were loaded only radially instead of by
canting radial loads of an outboard bearing.

Jobst Brandt

I'm pretty certain that most BB bearing failures are a result of dirt and/or
water contaminating the grease that the bearings are running in. The
quality (and quantity) of the seals are probably far more important than the
quality of the bearings themselves.

Another reason for BB failures is misaligned BB shell threads and faces
(i.e. the frame has not been "chased and faced"😉, causing the bearings of
the BB to be loaded in ways they were not designed to handle. This is
pretty easy to pick up when the new BB is installed in the frame by
observing that a BB that is perfectly smooth out of the frame (or in another
frame) becomes stiff to turn when put into the frame with the misaligned BB
shell.

"D'ohBoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Greetings -

One of the marketing approaches to selling the "exo" bearing cranks has
been the assertion that the larger size of the bearings make them much
more durable and long-lasting than other bbs.

That noted, I came across this from Phil Wood in the VeloNews tech
section:

Dear Lennard,
We have designed a tool that allows shop guys to pull apart Shimano,
Race face, and FSA outboard bottom brackets and replace the bearings
with our higher quality bearings. The result has been a dramatic
increase in the somewhat short lifespan most of these bottom bracket s
offer. Here's a look at the tool and the instructions on how to use it.

Thanks,
Brent
Phil Wood & Co.

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]? Is
this due to non parallel bb shell faces or ?

Just wondering,

D'ohBoy

Nate Knutson said:

However, if the difference that using the Phil bearings creates is
anywhere near to being on the order of the difference in lifespan
between the bearings in Phil stuff in general and those in almost
everything else, then is the term "somewhat short life span" really
such a poor choice?

There's nothing magic about Phil's bearings. They're nice,
well-designed and expensive. But pretty much every bearing in any
bicycle is loaded only to a small fraction of its rated load. Keep it
lubricated and clean, and they'll all last long enough to bore you to
death with just looking at them. For example, I have the same Campy
bottom bracket and Stronglight headset in my road bike that I built it
up with over 10 years ago and many 10's of thousands of miles ago.

I wouldn't consider that "somewhat short life span", though on a
cosmic scale... ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

D'ohBoy said:

Greetings -

One of the marketing approaches to selling the "exo" bearing cranks has
been the assertion that the larger size of the bearings make them much
more durable and long-lasting than other bbs.

That noted, I came across this from Phil Wood in the VeloNews tech
section:

Dear Lennard,
We have designed a tool that allows shop guys to pull apart Shimano,
Race face, and FSA outboard bottom brackets and replace the bearings
with our higher quality bearings. The result has been a dramatic
increase in the somewhat short lifespan most of these bottom bracket s
offer. Here's a look at the tool and the instructions on how to use it.

Thanks,
Brent
Phil Wood & Co.

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]? Is
this due to non parallel bb shell faces or ?

Just wondering,

D'ohBoy

I think it's a case of poor quality bearings in all these BBs. I think
shimano is probably the exception, better quality, but most are grade
300, lawn mower quality bearings. I have the Phil tool, really slick
and the replacement bearings are light years better than anything that
comes standard. The chainrings on these cranks, again with the
exception of shimano, are also soft, pretty and short lived.

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]? Is
this due to non parallel bb shell faces or ?

Ugh... does the phrase "dramatic increase" and "short lifespan" not sound
like marketing spew to you??? The sentence is intended to make your current
equipment to feel inadequate and that you're missing out on something
better.

Notice "replace the bearings with our higher quality bearings" instead of
just mentioning the grade number. Why not other peoples' higher quality
bearings?

Haven't heard of any short-lifespan external BB problems at our shop. Only
thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish FSA BBs.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

We have had 2-3 bearings go south early on, from FSA. I don't think
anybody makes replacement bearings for these BBs, EXCEPT Phil;Wood. I
know FSA, TruVativ and shimano don't. Complete BBs, but not bearings,
plus the phil tool is the first to get the old out and new in.

Quoted message said:

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]?
Is this due to non parallel BB shell faces or ?

Quoted message said:

Ugh... does the phrase "dramatic increase" and "short lifespan" not
sound like marketing spew to you??? The sentence is intended to
make your current equipment to feel inadequate and that you're
missing out on something better.

Quoted message said:

Notice "replace the bearings with our higher quality bearings"
instead of just mentioning the grade number. Why not other peoples'
higher quality bearings?

Quoted message said:

Haven't heard of any short-lifespan external BB problems at our
shop. Only thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish FSA
BBs.

I'm' less concerned about bearing durability than of the bearing cups,
that, from Shimano, are aluminum and screw into the same threads in
which previous steel BB cups had been inadequate for long life.

The cups on shimano, Campagnolo BBs have been....aluminum for almost a
decade. Steel went away with loose cup and ball, of course since the
bearing ran in a race in the cup but with cart bearings, Campag in 1992
/3 and shimano before that, the cups were aluminum.

The

Quoted message said:

left hand thread on the right side is used because this cup moves in
use and, without this thread, would unscrew. That it is moving means
that the aluminum threads instead of the BB shell steel threads will
most likely fail and do so faster than the BB threads did in the past
with hardened steel cups that were loaded only radially instead of by
canting radial loads of an outboard bearing.

Jobst Brandt

Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]?
> Is this due to non parallel BB shell faces or ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ugh... does the phrase "dramatic increase" and "short lifespan"
not sound like marketing spew to you??? The sentence is intended
to make your current equipment to feel inadequate and that you're
missing out on something better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Notice "replace the bearings with our higher quality bearings"
instead of just mentioning the grade number. Why not other
peoples' higher quality bearings?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Haven't heard of any short-lifespan external BB problems at our
shop. Only thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish
FSA BBs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm' less concerned about bearing durability than of the bearing
cups, that, from Shimano, are aluminum and screw into the same
threads in which previous steel BB cups had been inadequate for
long life.

Quoted message said:

The cups on Shimano, Campagnolo BBs have been... aluminum for almost
a decade. Steel went away with loose cup and ball, of course since
the bearing ran in a race in the cup but with cart bearings,
Campagnolo in 1992/3 and Shimano before that, the cups were
aluminum.

How long has Campagnolo had outboard bearings? I think you missed the
essence of my complaint about this design. The forces in a BB are
great enough that the right side bearing cup moves when just radially
loaded. Forces with outboard bearings are far greater than with
inboard ones whose loading caused enough failures to cause concern.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

left hand thread on the right side is used because this cup moves
in use and, without this thread, would unscrew. That it is moving
means that the aluminum threads instead of the BB shell steel
threads will most likely fail and do so faster than the BB threads
did in the past with hardened steel cups that were loaded only
radially instead of by canting radial loads of an outboard bearing.

Jobst Brandt

cel said:

Jobst,

Most moderately priced bikes today, for better, or worst, have aluminum
alloy BB shells as well as aluminum alloy cups. Building and selling
bikes that last forever is not a priority for most bike manufacturers.
So the new design is worst only as you said by have "canting radial
loads of an outboard bearing" instead of only radial loads.

This is true, but cartridge BBs are replaced periodically anyway, long
before the threads have problems. Now Phil Wood is suggesting you can
replace the bearings in these new outboard cups. But why invest in tools
and bearings for cups that will wear out anyway? This is probably what
Jobst is thinking too. Maybe it's better to just replace the whole thing,
as Shimano intended (though maybe not at Shimano's prices).

I'm not unhappy with previous Shimano cartridge BBs, which usually last me
a couple of years, and can be replaced for <$30 on sale. This is fairly
economical, probably on par with replacing the bearings alone, and that's
not even considering bike shop labor. Plus it prevents dangerous spindle
failures because the whole unit gets replaced periodically.

None of the previous systems is ideal, but the latest are no improvement.

Shimano could certainly force a new BB shell standard, instead of messing
around with outboard cups and other silliness. I don't understand why
they haven't, if this is really such a problem.

Matt O.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

The cups on shimano, Campagnolo BBs have been....aluminum for almost a
decade. Steel went away with loose cup and ball, of course since the
bearing ran in a race in the cup but with cart bearings, Campag in 1992

Campagnolo Mirage BBs (AC-S) have steel cups and solid steel axles and
were available for a pittance last time I checked (about 2002). Weight
penalty over AC-H (alloy cups and hollow axle): about 50-75g? At that
time, Record cup and cone track BBs of the same dimensions (111mm) were
also still available.Ü

D'ohBoy said:

Greetings -

One of the marketing approaches to selling the "exo" bearing cranks has
been the assertion that the larger size of the bearings make them much
more durable and long-lasting than other bbs.

That noted, I came across this from Phil Wood in the VeloNews tech
section:

Dear Lennard,
We have designed a tool that allows shop guys to pull apart Shimano,
Race face, and FSA outboard bottom brackets and replace the bearings
with our higher quality bearings. The result has been a dramatic
increase in the somewhat short lifespan most of these bottom bracket s
offer. Here's a look at the tool and the instructions on how to use it.

Thanks,
Brent
Phil Wood & Co.

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]? Is
this due to non parallel bb shell faces or ?

Given that there isn't a body of users griping that the Shimano
outboard bearings are wearing out, I doubt that there's a durability
problem in *that* regard, though one may be present which has simply
not become widely apparent. It will take a lot more actual in-service
usage of the design(s) before enough failures can be collected to see
whether the makeshifts are really durable in every respect. Jobst
Brandt has pointed out one definable weakness that the outboard
bearing setups are unlikely to overcome. My own opinion is that for
the majority of users, the old square taper is adequate...and for the
folks who break those, the current BB shell design does not provide
adequate room for a solution that's both durable and economical, and
may not even accommodate a truly durable design at all. There is a
potential long-term solution in the initially proposed oversize shell
that is described in the ISIS Overdrive document, which does not
define a shaft or bearing layout, just a BB shell that could provide
more space to allow a better bearing and shaft setup.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

It just reminds me how fad-driven bike biz can sometimes be...

I predict that in 10 years we will all be using "integrated" bottom
brackets and people will be looking for the correct spacers and
judaic-nuts (six sided star - doncha know) to shim up their left crank
arms to the proper height ! ! !

Meanwhile, hub cups will probably be riding outboard, and people will
be complaining about the difficulty of properly adjusting the lockring
on the non-drive side, and Shimano will be on the verge of introducing
the integrated, disposible hub ... sheesh !!!

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shimano could certainly force a new BB shell standard, instead of messing
around with outboard cups and other silliness. I don't understand why
they haven't, if this is really such a problem.

I'm waiting for them to introduce an oversized, threadless shell. Have it be
exactly the same as the old Ashtabula standard, but Shimano can try to
patent it and give it some sort of acronym, like S3B3 (Shimano Super-Sized
Bottom Bracket Bearing).

Donald Gillies said:

It just reminds me how fad-driven bike biz can sometimes be...

I predict that in 10 years we will all be using "integrated" bottom
brackets and people will be looking for the correct spacers and
judaic-nuts (six sided star - doncha know) to shim up their left crank
arms to the proper height ! ! !

Meanwhile, hub cups will probably be riding outboard, and people will
be complaining about the difficulty of properly adjusting the lockring
on the non-drive side, and Shimano will be on the verge of introducing
the integrated, disposible hub ... sheesh !!!

Geez, the way things seem headed, it wouldn't surprise me if, in 10
years, someone (Shimano?) introduces an integrated, disposable *bike*
(the claim being it's the "only way to get the weight under 10lbs"😉.
Heck, we're halfway there already....frames that crack from "normal
wear and tear", sealed (non-serviceable) this, stooopid light that,
etc., etc. All they need to do is get the frame and all the components
to have the same, short service life. "Your headset is shot, time for a
new bicycle."

Hank Wirtz said:

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shimano could certainly force a new BB shell standard, instead of messing
around with outboard cups and other silliness. I don't understand why
they haven't, if this is really such a problem.

I'm waiting for them to introduce an oversized, threadless shell. Have it be
exactly the same as the old Ashtabula standard, but Shimano can try to
patent it and give it some sort of acronym, like S3B3 (Shimano Super-Sized
Bottom Bracket Bearing).

Or maybe SOS BS (Shimano Over Size Bearing System).

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

Are the bearings really that crappy ["somewhat" short lifespan]? Is
this due to non parallel bb shell faces or ?

Ugh... does the phrase "dramatic increase" and "short lifespan" not
sound like marketing spew to you??? The sentence is intended to
make your current equipment to feel inadequate and that you're
missing out on something better.

Notice "replace the bearings with our higher quality bearings"
instead of just mentioning the grade number. Why not other peoples'
higher quality bearings?

Haven't heard of any short-lifespan external BB problems at our
shop. Only thing I've heard of are creaking issues with newish FSA
BBs.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

We have had 2-3 bearings go south early on, from FSA. I don't think
anybody makes replacement bearings for these BBs, EXCEPT Phil;Wood. I
know FSA, TruVativ and shimano don't. Complete BBs, but not bearings,
plus the phil tool is the first to get the old out and new in.

They're usually cheaper than ISIS BBs though, so it's not a backbreaker to
install new bearings.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training