On April 22 General Giap ordered the seizure of Saigon, with most of the few open villages rolled up this week. An era for some ended on or about 5:30 April 30 when the last helicopter took the U.S. Ambassador off the roof top with the last marines - now mainly known as the end of an act in Miss Saigon.
The coda was May 12-15, known as the Mayaguez Incident - easily ranking among the worst screw-ups of the era (and there were a few). It was a long six weeks for some of us, by the time the whole Mayaguez and follow up was done. Will drink to dead friends on Saturday.
Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
On April 22 General Giap ordered the seizure of Saigon, with most of the few open villages rolled up this week. An era for some ended on or about 5:30 April 30 when the last helicopter took the U.S. Ambassador off the roof top with the last marines - now mainly known as the end of an act in Miss Saigon.
The coda was May 12-15, known as the Mayaguez Incident - easily ranking among the worst screw-ups of the era (and there were a few). It was a long six weeks for some of us, by the time the whole Mayaguez and follow up was done. Will drink to dead friends on Saturday.
Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
A toast to friends long gone but not forgotten. And in another thirty years the young of today will toast their friends gone in Iraq knowing that many who returned got the worst of the deal.
A toast to friends long gone but not forgotten. And in another
thirty years
Quoted message said:
the young of today will toast their friends gone in Iraq knowing that
many
Quoted message said:
who returned got the worst of the deal.
Dumbass -
Iraq is a mistake as was Vietnam, but you can't compare the trauma of Iraq to the trauma of Vietnam.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
I guess you either don't know many Vietnam Vetrans or Iraq Vetrans(Desert Storm or current).
Trying to give CPR to half a human on the side of the road or wondering which way to expect the next bullet from seems to feel the same no matter what year or what part of the world you are in.
A toast to friends long gone but not forgotten. And in another
thirty years
Quoted message said:
the young of today will toast their friends gone in Iraq knowing
that
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
many
Quoted message said:
who returned got the worst of the deal.
Dumbass -
Iraq is a mistake as was Vietnam, but you can't compare the trauma
of
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Iraq to the trauma of Vietnam.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
I guess you either don't know many Vietnam Vetrans or Iraq Vetrans(Desert Storm or current).
Trying to give CPR to half a human on the side of the road or wondering which way to expect the next bullet from seems to feel the same no matter what year or what part of the world you are in.
You dumbass.
D
OK being serious for the moment. I think both sides of this are right. At a personal or individual level the trauma is -of course- the same. All war is traumatic at the level of the folks fighting it. But on a more societal level (US society) there is little doubt that Viet Nam touched the nation at a more visceral level. think about the differences, which include at least: - the draft - first war to be live on TV - the length of the war - the total US deaths - the total US casualties
Viet Nam broke ground in the US for middle class citizens ( and many of us veterans) to not trust the government and how & why it waged war. Now we are all so much more cynical and so it is harder for newer conflicts to have the same impact.
On a lighter note and bringing it back to cycling. There are now a number of cycle tours of Viet Nam. Any guess to when we will see adverts for "Cycle Bagdad"
On a lighter note and bringing it back to cycling. There are now a number of cycle tours of Viet Nam. Any guess to when we will see adverts for "Cycle Bagdad"
B. Lafferty wrote: > > A toast to friends long gone but not forgotten. And in another thirty years > the young of today will toast their friends gone in Iraq knowing
that
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
many > who returned got the worst of the deal.
Dumbass -
Iraq is a mistake as was Vietnam, but you can't compare the trauma
of
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Iraq to the trauma of Vietnam.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
I guess you either don't know many Vietnam Vetrans or Iraq Vetrans(Desert Storm or current).
Trying to give CPR to half a human on the side of the road or wondering which way to expect the next bullet from seems to feel the same no matter what year or what part of the world you are in.
You dumbass.
D
OK being serious for the moment. I think both sides of this are right. At a personal or individual level the trauma is -of course- the same. All war is traumatic at the level of the folks fighting it. But on a more societal level (US society) there is little doubt that Viet Nam touched the nation at a more visceral level. think about the differences, which include at least: - the draft - first war to be live on TV - the length of the war - the total US deaths - the total US casualties
Viet Nam broke ground in the US for middle class citizens ( and many of us veterans) to not trust the government and how & why it waged war. Now we are all so much more cynical and so it is harder for newer conflicts to have the same impact.
On a lighter note and bringing it back to cycling. There are now a number of cycle tours of Viet Nam. Any guess to when we will see adverts for "Cycle Bagdad"
Undoubtedly. And it's different because the soldiers that come back from Iraq are treated like heros, even by people who don't agree with the war. A great contrast to Vietnam.
But what Dumbass said was "but you can't compare the trauma of Iraq to the trauma of Vietnam." And that's just stupid.
I would hesitate to be so quick to judge that statement were it not from such a consitantly popous source.
On April 22 General Giap ordered the seizure of Saigon, with most of the few open villages rolled up this week. An era for some ended on
or
Quoted message said:
about 5:30 April 30 when the last helicopter took the U.S. Ambassador off the roof top with the last marines - now mainly known as the end of an act in Miss Saigon.
The coda was May 12-15, known as the Mayaguez Incident - easily ranking among the worst screw-ups of the era (and there were a few). It was a long six weeks for some of us, by the time the whole
Mayaguez
Quoted message said:
and follow up was done. Will drink to dead friends on Saturday.
Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
Got some Glenlivet that will get broken out again. Don't drink the hard stuff anymore, but on a few occasions it's only right. For me it's more the people I know who came back, and have left us since. Either way it's a lot of good people gone. I'll toast one first to an Army SFC who was at the Embassy during Tet and did his job, while some others didn't, who took the time to teach a young AF punk how to soldier, and what being a professional was really about. Bill C Tipping one to SFC Christiansen
Editor's Note: This account of the failed Iranian rescue raid was compiled from numerous histories and subsequent news media accounts of the operation. A selected reading list is included at the end of the text.
Five months and three weeks after an Iranian mob stormed the U.S. Embassy complex in Tehran on Nov. 4, 1979, the U.S. military 25 years ago yesterday launched "Operation Eagle Claw," an ambitious and complex rescue mission to free 52 Americans held hostage at the compound and another three diplomats detained at the Iranian foreign ministry building several miles away.
The point both everyone needs to remember is that the US leaving was
a
Quoted message said:
catstrophe for SE Asia that continues today. The Vietnamese
government
Quoted message said:
went on the standard purge and murdered several hundred thousand,
they
Quoted message said:
are still brutalising the indigineous tribes. The killing fields of Cambodia were directly attributable to our pulling out.
<snip>
Dumbass -
What [censored]. Who kicked the Khmer Rouge out of power? The Vietnamese Communists.
Southeast Asia has it's problems as does the Middle East and it's not necessarily our job to solve them. Not only is it not our job, we may not be capable since the people in our country generally don't have a good understanding of the very different cultural issues on the other side of the planet.
OK being serious for the moment. I think both sides of this are
right.
Quoted message said:
At a personal or individual level the trauma is -of course- the same. All war is traumatic at the level of the folks fighting it. But on a more societal level (US society) there is little doubt that Viet Nam touched the nation at a more visceral level.
The point both everyone needs to remember is that the US leaving was a catstrophe for SE Asia that continues today. The Vietnamese government went on the standard purge and murdered several hundred thousand, they are still brutalising the indigineous tribes. The killing fields of Cambodia were directly attributable to our pulling out. Millions of people died because we bailed, and many more millions are living in one of the least free, and most brutal countries there is. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2354077.stm http://www.crfvn.org/humanrights/voices.html http://www.hrw.org/wr2k2/asia11.html It's a long ugly history that is still continuing. It's no surprise that once again most of the world can't even beging to protest or even sanction the genocide in Darfur and the Congo. If you ignore it your conciensce is clean...right? Bill C
I guess I'm not so convinced that the American decision to intervene in Southeast Asia wasn't itself a catastrophe that resulted in a long ugly history. Nixon's bombing of Cambodia certainly did little to further the cause of stability for the Cambodians.
Communism was a nasty form of government to be sure. But I don't think the United States can necessarily assume the moral highground in the context of Southeast Asia.
None of which is intended as criticism toward those who served, I should add.
'kay. I had best leave this one to you regulars. Otherwise, my off-topic posts will very soon outnumber my on-topic ones. Very bad karma, that. ;-)
-- Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash
On 04/28/2005 02:42 AM, in article [email hidden], "Ewoud Dronkert"
Quoted message said:
Jim Phelps said:
I thought that Bush got us into this to lower oil prices. Well Jack, I just paid $29.32 to fill up a 4 cylinder VW Passat that gets 28mpg.
Over here you would pay E1.33 per liter, or about $120 for a 70 l tank.
My Trooper has an 18+ gallon tank, which is about 70 litres ... My last fill-up was about $45.00 ... This is one of the few times when I'm thankful I don't still live in Europe, especially since the Trooper only gets about 16 mpg (6.8 km/l).
-- Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash
With both the Soviets and China supplying them it was a pretty hopeless situation comparable from a military standpoint in my mind to the Soviet experience in Afghanistan.
One of the reasons we were concerned with North Vietnam is that in the early days there was a significant Chinese presence in training and skill positions, so part of the process of being involved was to block their projection south. The post-coda part of the story is that once we left, they had a vicious little border war in 1979 and Vietnam may be the biggest barrier to Cinese expansion to the south that there is. Some of the border crossing points and railheads remained closed, last I knew.
It happened just before the Chinese ground force modernization began, so maybe it was China's way to junk a bunch of obsolete tanks and leave it for the Vietnamese to clean up. That would explain the Chinese declaring victory before leaving.
Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
I thought that Bush got us into this to lower oil prices. Well Jack, I just paid $29.32 to fill up a 4 cylinder VW Passat that gets 28mpg.
To the extent that there is internal logic to that, then I guess you are now arguing that you were in error when you thought Bush got us into this to lower prices.
You need to get the sides straight. The opponents argued that he started the war to permit his friends to indulge in war profiteering from the Iraqi oil. His friends said he went in to secure our safety and the freedom of the Iraqis. No one said your pump prices would go down.
Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
