Only Two Positives

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hein might have added that Verenque never tested positive, either.

Quoted message said:

_______________________________________

Verbruggen Vents At Media Exaggeration Hein Verbruggen was outspoken in his dissatisfaction with
the media with regard to the recent doping issues in France. Speaking at the Liberty Seguros
presentation in Madrid, Spain, the president of the UCI rightly identified the fact that only two
French riders tested positive.

Verbruggen

Quoted message said:

also pointed the finger in other directions stating that "I've also seen that there were 45 tennis
players on something and I haven't seen any involvement from the police or politicians there."
pezcyclingnews.compezcyclingnews.comOpen ↗

If you were in his position, what would you have done? Perhaps you would have said: "Yes, it's
another indication that bicycle racing is trough and through rotten. Gaumont's statement that 90 %
of the pro's is taking illicit drugs is unfortunately onky too true. If I was a sponsor I wouldn't
invest one single cent in this stinking business." From a moral point of view it would have been
undoubtedly praiseworthy, but ,, etc., etc. By the way, in 1998 Verbruggen said already that the Festina-
affair was a completely isolated case.

Benjo Maso

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hein might have added that Verenque never tested positive, either.

Quoted message said:

_______________________________________

Verbruggen Vents At Media Exaggeration Hein Verbruggen was outspoken in his dissatisfaction with
the media with regard to the recent doping issues in France. Speaking at the Liberty Seguros
presentation in Madrid, Spain, the president of the UCI rightly identified the fact that only
two French riders tested positive.

Verbruggen

Quoted message said:

also pointed the finger in other directions stating that "I've also seen that there were 45
tennis players on something and I haven't seen any involvement from the police or politicians
there." pezcyclingnews.compezcyclingnews.comOpen ↗

If you were in his position, what would you have done? Perhaps you would have said: "Yes, it's
another indication that bicycle racing is trough and through rotten. Gaumont's statement that 90 %
of the pro's is taking

illicit

Quoted message said:

drugs is unfortunately onky too true. If I was a sponsor I wouldn't invest one single cent in this
stinking business." From a moral point of view it would have been undoubtedly praiseworthy, but ,,
etc., etc. By the way, in 1998 Verbruggen said already that the Festina-affair was

a

Quoted message said:

completely isolated case.

Benjo Maso

What would I do.............other than what I proposed? OK, if I were, Hein I'd hold a press
conference and admit that cycling has a major doping problem, that testing is not catching more than
a miniscule number of cheats as presently set up, and that more needs to be done. I would:

1. Require random, unannounced, out of competition testing of all riders in the top 500 of UCI
rankings and the same for amateurs and lower ranked professionals at a reduced rate of frequency.

2. I would institute a penalty of a lifetime ban for the first offense with the provision that it
could be reduced to two years if the rider could prove beyond a reasonable doubt (not by
preponderance) that the banned substance was inadvertently ingested. A subsequent second offense
would have a lifetime ban with no opportunity to use the inadvertence defense a second time.

3. Any team in which a rider tested positive would be suspended from competition for six months
commencing at the beginning of the following calendar year. After a second offense, the
suspension would be for one year.

4. Require frequent blood testing and health profiling of all riders. If a rider fell outside one of
the health parameters, he would be suspended from competition until such time an he or she was
back within parameters.

But, I'm not Hein. I'd simply let them juice with provisions made for widows/widowers and orphans.

B. Lafferty said:

What would I do.............other than what I proposed? OK, if I were Hein I'd

[snip]

Yeah, that'd convince sponsors to play.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hein might have added that Verenque never tested positive, either.

Quoted message said:

_______________________________________

Verbruggen Vents At Media Exaggeration Hein Verbruggen was outspoken in his dissatisfaction
with the media

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

regard to the recent doping issues in France. Speaking at the Liberty Seguros presentation in
Madrid, Spain, the president of the UCI

rightly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

identified the fact that only two French riders tested positive.

Verbruggen

Quoted message said:

also pointed the finger in other directions stating that "I've also

seen

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that there were 45 tennis players on something and I haven't seen any involvement from the
police or politicians there." pezcyclingnews.compezcyclingnews.comOpen ↗

If you were in his position, what would you have done? Perhaps you would have said: "Yes, it's
another indication that bicycle racing is trough

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

through rotten. Gaumont's statement that 90 % of the pro's is taking

illicit

Quoted message said:

drugs is unfortunately onky too true. If I was a sponsor I wouldn't

invest

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one single cent in this stinking business." From a moral point of view

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would have been undoubtedly praiseworthy, but ,, etc., etc. By the way, in 1998 Verbruggen said
already that the Festina-affair

was

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

completely isolated case.

Benjo Maso

What would I do.............other than what I proposed? OK, if I were,

Hein

Quoted message said:

I'd hold a press conference and admit that cycling has a major doping problem, that testing is not
catching more than a miniscule number of

cheats

Quoted message said:

as presently set up, and that more needs to be done. I would:

1. Require random, unannounced, out of competition testing of all riders

in

Quoted message said:

the top 500 of UCI rankings and the same for amateurs and lower ranked professionals at a reduced
rate of frequency.

Impossible. First, the capacity of the existing laboraties is much too small and the costsare too
high. Second, there are already "unannounced" controls, but because there is so many money going on
and people are bribable, the riders are usually well informed with the result that nothing can be
found - not even the team, which some reason suddely decided to set up a training camp elseweher.

Quoted message said:

2. I would institute a penalty of a lifetime ban for the first offense

with

Quoted message said:

the provision that it could be reduced to two years if the rider could

prove

Quoted message said:

beyond a reasonable doubt (not by preponderance) that the banned substance was inadvertently
ingested. A subsequent second offense would have a lifetime ban with no opportunity to use the
inadvertence defense a second time.

You mean you want ditch not only the rule that someone is considered to be innocent unless he is
proven guilty (which already doesn't exists anymore in sports), but also the "Non est reus nisi mens
rea"-principle, the rule that someone is only guilty if he is guilty by intention (from the 12th
century on part of the judicial system)? Well, why not? It only confirms that the anti-doping
policiy is doning more harm than good.

Quoted message said:

3. Any team in which a rider tested positive would be suspended from competition for six months
commencing at the beginning of the following calendar year. After a second offense, the
suspension would be for one

year.

Probably the best way to deter the sponsors. The point is that bicycling racers need sposnors, but
sponsors don't need bicycle racing. Iff the conditions are not favorable enough they disappear as
fast as they can.

Quoted message said:

4. Require frequent blood testing and health profiling of all riders. If

a

Quoted message said:

rider fell outside one of the health parameters, he would be suspended

from

Quoted message said:

competition until such time an he or she was back within parameters.

Quoted message said:

But, I'm not Hein. I'd simply let them juice with provisions made for widows/widowers and orphans.

But you forget point 5: To admit that all those measures are even in the most favorable conditions
only relatively effective, because there are many performance enhancing products which cannot be
detected. This way you can only catch the suckers, not the athletes which are rich enough to afford
non-detectable products or the advice of a top-specialist.

Benjo Maso

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

What would I do.............other than what I proposed? OK, if I were Hein I'd

[snip]

Yeah, that'd convince sponsors to play.

I'll bet they would with the proper provisions in their contracts with the teams for monetary
refunds/damages in the event of a positive.. I'll bet you that a guy like Squinzi (sp?) of Mapei
would come back with his millions in a heartbeat if he had reason to believe the sport was really
being cleaned up.

What I proposed as Hein is really a system of collective responsibility/collective punishment.
Ordinarily such a system is frowned upon for society in general (ask any teacher who has tried to
punish an entire class for the disruption of a few students). But professional cycling is not a
right. It is a licensed profession. If you know the rules up front, you have a decision to make--
play the game by the rules or go back to the factory/farm/store.

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Impossible. First, the capacity of the existing laboraties is much too

small

Quoted message said:

and the costsare too high. Second, there are already "unannounced"

controls,

Quoted message said:

but because there is so many money going on and people are bribable, the riders are usually well
informed with the result that nothing can be

found -

Quoted message said:

not even the team, which some reason suddely decided to set up a training camp elseweher.

I'm certain the money could be found---especially now that Mr. Bush has come onto the anti-drug in
sport bandwagon. Controls need tightening. The testing needs to be a complete surprise and out of
competition.

Quoted message said:

You mean you want ditch not only the rule that someone is considered to be innocent unless he is
proven guilty (which already doesn't exists anymore

in

Quoted message said:

sports), but also the "Non est reus nisi mens rea"-principle, the rule

that

Quoted message said:

someone is only guilty if he is guilty by intention (from the 12th century on part of the
judicial system)? Well, why not? It only confirms that the anti-doping policiy is doning more
harm than good.

Not at all. The charging party, UCI or WADA, would have to prove its case against the rider. What is
being proposed is a strict liability policy that does not require mens rea except in a one time
instance of inadvertance (negligence) of ingestion of a banned substance. The guilty mind/intention
relates, IIRC, to Catholic Church doctrine as to sin. It is a sin to think about committing the
sinful act. George Carlin has a wonderful skit on this in which one feel of Mary amounts to five
different sins "Five sins in one feel, man!". Let them think about doping all they want--no
punishment unless they do it. Hey, how about a choice of penalty--lifetime suspension or ride a
season with a helmet liner of thorns?

Quoted message said:

Probably the best way to deter the sponsors. The point is that bicycling racers need sposnors, but
sponsors don't need bicycle racing. Iff the conditions are not favorable enough they disappear as
fast as they can.

I doubt that. If anything, sponsors want assurances that they won't be embarrassed. This gives them
a better shot short of outright acceptance of doping.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But you forget point 5: To admit that all those measures are even in the

most favorable conditions only relatively effective, because there are

many

Quoted message said:

performance enhancing products which cannot be detected. This way you can only catch the suckers,
not the athletes which are rich enough to afford non-detectable products or the advice of a top-
specialist.

That is always going to be a problem. That's why I favor letting them use whatever they want. The
use of the health parameters will only make it more difficult to use that next generation of juice.

Consider the following as reported by ProCycling today. Is Clerc lurking here at rbr?:

procycling.comnews main.aspOpen ↗ Meanwhile, Patrice Clerc, the president of ASO,
the company that organises the Tour de France, has called on cycling to become a sport with a
pioneering attitude against the use of drugs. Speaking to L'Equipe, Clerc said: "Cycling has been to
a certain extent a pioneering sport in the use of banned products, and now it should show the same
pioneering spirit by not using them."

Clerc called for an increase in out-of-competition testing, saying: "It is absolutely necessary to
help the UCI in knowing where riders are and what they are doing during their periods of
preparation. We now know that we can' t be content with doing our major medical checks just three
days before the start of the Tour de France."

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Impossible. First, the capacity of the existing laboraties is much too

small

Quoted message said:

and the costsare too high. Second, there are already "unannounced"

controls,

Quoted message said:

but because there is so many money going on and people are bribable, the riders are usually well
informed with the result that nothing can be

found -

Quoted message said:

not even the team, which some reason suddely decided to set up a

training

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

camp elseweher.

I'm certain the money could be found---especially now that Mr. Bush has

come

Quoted message said:

onto the anti-drug in sport bandwagon.

Mr. Bush won't give mony for bicycling in Europe. I'm afraid he was only thionking of football,
basketball, baseball and perhaps athletics.

Quoted message said:

Controls need tightening. The testing needs to be a complete surprise

and out of competition.

Yes, but how?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You mean you want ditch not only the rule that someone is considered to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

innocent unless he is proven guilty (which already doesn't exists

anymore

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

sports), but also the "Non est reus nisi mens rea"-principle, the rule

that

Quoted message said:

someone is only guilty if he is guilty by intention (from the 12th

century

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on part of the judicial system)? Well, why not? It only confirms that

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anti-doping policiy is doning more harm than good.

Not at all. The charging party, UCI or WADA, would have to prove its case against the rider. What
is being proposed is a strict liability policy

that

Quoted message said:

does not require mens rea except in a one time instance of inadvertance (negligence) of ingestion
of a banned substance. The guilty

mind/intention

Quoted message said:

relates, IIRC, to Catholic Church doctrine as to sin. It is a sin to

think

Quoted message said:

about committing the sinful act. George Carlin has a wonderful skit on

this

Quoted message said:

in which one feel of Mary amounts to five different sins "Five sins in one feel, man!". Let them
think about doping all they want--no punishment unless they do it. Hey, how about a choice of penalty--
lifetime

suspension

Quoted message said:

or ride a season with a helmet liner of thorns?

It's better confessing it, say 100 Hail-Mary's and be forgiven. Let's not forget that bicycling
racing is more or less a Cathoilic sport :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Probably the best way to deter the sponsors. The point is that bicycling racers need sposnors,
but sponsors don't need bicycle racing. Iff the conditions are not favorable enough they
disappear as fast as they can.

I doubt that. If anything, sponsors want assurances that they won't be embarrassed. This gives
them a better shot short of outright acceptance

of

Quoted message said:

doping.

Fifty years ago almost all the important sponsors were part of the bicyle scene. In these days it
happens very seldom (Bianchi was one of the - very short - exceptions). Firsm sponsering
professional teams know there is always a risk. They are willing to take for two reasons: first,
because the number of riders testing positive is very small. Second, because the general public in
Europe does hardly mind that riders are taking drugs. So if a rider is testing positive it's more
than enough to show some indignance and firing him. And of course, if he is good, there is always
another team willing to give him a new contract.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But you forget point 5: To admit that all those measures are even in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

most favorable conditions only relatively effective, because there are

many

Quoted message said:

performance enhancing products which cannot be detected. This way you

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only catch the suckers, not the athletes which are rich enough to afford non-detectable products
or the advice of a top-specialist.

That is always going to be a problem. That's why I favor letting them use whatever they want. The
use of the health parameters will only make it

more

Quoted message said:

difficult to use that next generation of juice.

Specialists like Ferrari or Conconi will always find a way to duck all kind of tests.

Quoted message said:

Consider the following as reported by ProCycling today. Is Clerc lurking here at rbr?:

procycling.comnews main.aspOpen ↗ Meanwhile, Patrice Clerc, the president of
ASO, the company that organises the Tour de France, has called on cycling to become a sport with a
pioneering attitude against the use of drugs. Speaking to L'Equipe, Clerc said: "Cycling has been
to a certain extent a pioneering sport in the use

of

Quoted message said:

banned products, and now it should show the same pioneering spirit by not using them."

Clerc called for an increase in out-of-competition testing, saying: "It is absolutely necessary to
help the UCI in knowing where riders are and what they are doing during their periods of
preparation. We now know that we

can'

Quoted message said:

t be content with doing our major medical checks just three days before

the

Quoted message said:

start of the Tour de France."

He is far from being the first to say things like that. But until now the effects of all those words
have been minmal.

Benjo Maso

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'll bet they would with the proper provisions in their contracts with the teams for monetary
refunds/damages in the event of a positive.. I'll bet you that a guy like Squinzi (sp?) of Mapei
would come back with his

millions

Quoted message said:

in a heartbeat if he had reason to believe the sport was really being cleaned up.

What I proposed as Hein is really a system of collective responsibility/collective punishment.
Ordinarily such a system is frowned upon for society in general (ask any teacher who has tried to
punish an entire class for the disruption of a few students). But professional cycling is not a
right. It is a licensed profession. If you know the

rules

Quoted message said:

up front, you have a decision to make--play the game by the rules or go

back

Quoted message said:

to the factory/farm/store.

God, you are all idiots.

A draconian cycling "War on Drugs" wouldn't work any better than Ronald Reagan's "War on Drugs".

Consider that Reagan's "War on Drugs" had punishments like life imprisonment or multipliers of 100
(turning 10 grams of drug into a kilo) for small amounts of crack cocaine.

Even with that, Reagan's "War on Drugs" failed. If it's not possible to clean up drugs in the
culture at large, it's not possible to get rid of it in cycling.

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mr. Bush won't give mony for bicycling in Europe. I'm afraid he was only thionking of football,
basketball, baseball and perhaps athletics.

Wait until there's a Democrat in the White House. Then Bush will have time to devote to being the
WADA drug Czar.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Controls need tightening. The testing needs to be a complete surprise

and out of competition.

Yes, but how?

Other sports are testing out of competition all the time--Swimming and Track & Field come to mind.

Quoted message said:

It's better confessing it, say 100 Hail-Mary's and be forgiven. Let's not forget that bicycling
racing is more or less a Cathoilic sport :-)

As Coppi discovered.

Quoted message said:

Fifty years ago almost all the important sponsors were part of the bicyle scene. In these days
it happens very seldom (Bianchi was one of the - very short - exceptions). Firsm sponsering
professional teams know there is always a risk. They are willing to take for two reasons:
first, because

the

Quoted message said:

number of riders testing positive is very small. Second, because the

general

Quoted message said:

public in Europe does hardly mind that riders are taking drugs. So if a rider is testing positive
it's more than enough to show some indignance

and

Quoted message said:

firing him. And of course, if he is good, there is always another team willing to give him a new
contract.

Let them reduce their team size, smear Nivea on their butst and use St. Raphael to ease the pain.
"Less is more"--Jerry Brown

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> But you forget point 5: To admit that all those measures are even in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

most favorable conditions only relatively effective, because there are

many

Quoted message said:

performance enhancing products which cannot be detected. This way you

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only catch the suckers, not the athletes which are rich enough to

afford

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

non-detectable products or the advice of a top-specialist.

That is always going to be a problem. That's why I favor letting them

use

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

whatever they want. The use of the health parameters will only make it

more

Quoted message said:

difficult to use that next generation of juice.

Specialists like Ferrari or Conconi will always find a way to duck all

kind

Quoted message said:

of tests.

There will always be cheaters. (But Lance swears Ferrari is straight).

Quoted message said:

He is far from being the first to say things like that. But until now the effects of all those
words have been minmal.

Seriously, they all lurk at rbr--even Lance.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Mr. Bush won't give mony for bicycling in Europe. I'm afraid he was only thionking of football,
basketball, baseball and perhaps athletics.

Wait until there's a Democrat in the White House. Then Bush will have

time

Quoted message said:

to devote to being the WADA drug Czar.

Yes, but at that time he can't invade Europe because there might be performance enhancing products
somewhere.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Controls need tightening. The testing needs to be a complete

surprise

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and out of competition.

Yes, but how?

Other sports are testing out of competition all the time--Swimming and

Track

Quoted message said:

& Field come to mind.

Also in bicycling racing. But I heard from some very reliable sources that "unannounced" is a joke.
I don't know how it is in swimming or athletics.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Specialists like Ferrari or Conconi will always find a way to duck all

kind

Quoted message said:

of tests.

There will always be cheaters. (But Lance swears Ferrari is straight).

Yes, but bicycle racing has it own jargon. "Clean" has a quite different meaning, probably
"straight' as well. Ferrari once said in an expansive mood: "In my opinion riders are allowed to
take products that can't be detected".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He is far from being the first to say things like that. But until now

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

effects of all those words have been minmal.

Seriously, they all lurk at rbr--even Lance.

Who knows? As result of a posting to rbr I once got an personal e-mail from an former
worldchampion ...

Benjo Maso

benjo maso said:

Mr. Bush won't give mony for bicycling in Europe. I'm afraid he was only thionking of football,
basketball, baseball and perhaps athletics.

How disappointing - I was looking forward to cycling being declared a member of the axis of evil so
I could tell all non-cyclists that I know that I'm eviler than they are.

Quoted message said:

It's better confessing it, say 100 Hail-Mary's and be forgiven. Let's not forget that bicycling
racing is more or less a Cathoilic sport :-)

Damn, does that mean we'll all have to give up using condoms.

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

benjo maso said:

Mr. Bush won't give mony for bicycling in Europe. I'm afraid he was only thionking of football,
basketball, baseball and perhaps athletics.

How disappointing - I was looking forward to cycling being declared a member of the axis of evil
so I could tell all non-cyclists that I know that I'm eviler than they are.

Quoted message said:

It's better confessing it, say 100 Hail-Mary's and be forgiven. Let's not forget that bicycling
racing is more or less a Cathoilic sport :-)

Damn, does that mean we'll all have to give up using condoms.

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

benjo maso said:

Mr. Bush won't give mony for bicycling in Europe. I'm afraid he was only thionking of football,
basketball, baseball and perhaps athletics.

How disappointing - I was looking forward to cycling being declared a member of the axis of evil
so I could tell all non-cyclists that I know that I'm eviler than they are.

Quoted message said:

It's better confessing it, say 100 Hail-Mary's and be forgiven. Let's not forget that bicycling
racing is more or less a Cathoilic sport :-)

Damn, does that mean we'll all have to give up using condoms.

Dear Evil One,

The Pope just called (he lurks here too) to tell me that condoms (dry lubed) may be used as
saddle nose protectors in-as-much-as they may help prevent penile dysfunction and therefore be
an aid to propagation.

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

benjo maso said:

Mr. Bush won't give mony for bicycling in Europe. I'm afraid he was only thionking of football,
basketball, baseball and perhaps athletics.

How disappointing - I was looking forward to cycling being declared a member of the axis of evil
so I could tell all non-cyclists that I know that I'm eviler than they are.

satirewire.comaxis.shtmlOpen ↗

(I'm sure you're familiar with it)

Jeff

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also in bicycling racing. But I heard from some very reliable sources

that

Quoted message said:

"unannounced" is a joke. I don't know how it is in swimming or athletics.

That would have to be delt with. That's one of the resons for an independent testing agency like
WADA. Witness the dispute between WADA and the UCI over testing at the 2003 TdF.

Quoted message said:

(snip)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Specialists like Ferrari or Conconi will always find a way to duck all

kind

Quoted message said:

of tests.

There will always be cheaters. (But Lance swears Ferrari is straight).

Yes, but bicycle racing has it own jargon. "Clean" has a quite different meaning, probably
"straight' as well. Ferrari once said in an expansive mood: "In my opinion riders are allowed to
take products that can't be detected".

And Dicky V. probably did think he was clean because he never tested positive. There is a culture of
doping that has colored everything in cycling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He is far from being the first to say things like that. But until now

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

effects of all those words have been minmal.

Seriously, they all lurk at rbr--even Lance.

Who knows? As result of a posting to rbr I once got an personal e-mail

from

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an former worldchampion ...

Lance??

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

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Also in bicycling racing. But I heard from some very reliable sources

that

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"unannounced" is a joke. I don't know how it is in swimming or

athletics.

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That would have to be delt with. That's one of the resons for an independent testing agency like
WADA. Witness the dispute between WADA

and

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the UCI over testing at the 2003 TdF.

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(snip)

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> Specialists like Ferrari or Conconi will always find a way to duck

all

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kind
> of tests.

There will always be cheaters. (But Lance swears Ferrari is

straight).

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Yes, but bicycle racing has it own jargon. "Clean" has a quite different meaning, probably
"straight' as well. Ferrari once said in an expansive mood: "In my opinion riders are allowed to
take products that can't be detected".

And Dicky V. probably did think he was clean because he never tested positive. There is a culture
of doping that has colored everything in cycling.

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> He is far from being the first to say things like that. But until

now

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the

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> effects of all those words have been minmal.

Seriously, they all lurk at rbr--even Lance.

Who knows? As result of a posting to rbr I once got an personal e-mail

from

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an former worldchampion ...

Lance??

No, in that case I would have said a TDF-winner :-)

Benjo Maso

benjo maso said:

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Quoted message said:

Who knows? As result of a posting to rbr I once got an personal e-mail from an former
worldchampion ...

Lance??

No, in that case I would have said a TDF-winner :-)

Intriguing. Looking at the list I would say Kuiper (may have already used e-mail back in Motorola
days) or maybe Museeuw (writes on his own site regularly, reads Dutch so may have known you from
your books) or Criq (old enough to be interested in historic questions, not too old for internet). I
doubt the Italians, Frenchmen and Spaniards speak English well enough to be interested in rbr.

I said:

Intriguing. Looking at the list

Ah, but what list? Somehow I only looked at the pro men road world champions... Could be track,
women, amateurs, juniors, the list is endless :/ OK, final guess: Danny Nelissen.

Ewoud Dronkert said:

I said:

Intriguing. Looking at the list

Ah, but what list? Somehow I only looked at the pro men road world champions... Could be track,
women, amateurs, juniors, the list is endless

Did you check the Fattie Masters World Championship lists?