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Oh no, not again!

Started by Just Zis Guy · · Last activity · 90 posts · 3,227 views

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UK and Europe
Published
8 March 2004
Last activity
16 March 2004
Original author
Just Zis Guy
Posts
90
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  1. "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Jack Davis said:

    Anyone but me remember when the new jet, (straight and
    turbo) airliners


    were

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    falling out of the sky from metal failure?

    For some reason I suspect that fatigue from
    pressurization/depressurization cycles is not a factor in
    aluminium alloy recumbent bicycles.

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

    Actually Tom, I believe it was from high frequency vibration
    not p/d cycles, but that should not be a problem on bicycles
    either unless one is pedaling very rapidly.

    Carry on.... jd

  2. Jack Davis said:

    Anyone but me remember when the new jet, (straight and
    turbo) airliners were falling out of the sky from metal
    failure?

    Not "the new jet, (straight and turbo) airliners " it was
    only one type, the DH Comet Mk1.

    --
    Marc. Please note the above address is a spam trap, use
    marcc to reply Printing for clubs of all types
    jaceeprint.demon.co.ukjaceeprint.demon.co.uk Stickers, banners &
    clothing, for clubs,teams, magazines and dealers.

  3. Jack Davis said:

    Actually Tom, I believe it was from high frequency
    vibration not p/d cycles, but that should not be a problem
    on bicycles either unless one is pedaling very rapidly.

    If one is referring to the failure which caused numerous
    Comet aircraft to crash in the 1950's, these were fatigue
    failures propagating from the corners of the windows
    (which had fairly sharp corners - bad idea) and /were/ due
    to p/d cycles.

    --

    Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.uk
    ===========================================================

  4. Dave Larrington said:

    If one is referring to the failure which caused numerous
    Comet aircraft to crash in the 1950's, these were fatigue
    failures propagating from the corners of the windows
    (which had fairly sharp corners - bad idea) and /were/ due
    to p/d cycles.

    Only 2 or 3 of the Comet crashes were due to fatigue -
    several other early crashes were due to excessive angle of
    attack while attempting takeoff, and the remaining crashed
    were due to pilot error.

    However, fatigue failure would have eventually affected most
    of all of the Comet 1 and 1A models if they had not be
    retrofitted or scrapped.

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

  5. "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dave Larrington said:

    If one is referring to the failure which caused numerous
    Comet aircraft


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    crash in the 1950's, these were fatigue failures
    propagating from the corners of the windows (which had
    fairly sharp corners - bad idea) and /were/ due to p/d
    cycles.

    Only 2 or 3 of the Comet crashes were due to fatigue -
    several other early crashes were due to excessive angle of
    attack while attempting takeoff, and the remaining crashed
    were due to pilot error.

    However, fatigue failure would have eventually affected
    most of all of the Comet 1 and 1A models if they had not
    be retrofitted or scrapped.

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

    I was thinking that some of the early Vickers, (Viscounts?)
    had a problem too but my brain turned to sawdust years ago
    so I'll let others research that if they wish.

    Aircraft builders did have experience with p/d cycles by the
    time the Comet was built and other, piston powered, aircraft
    had square corners which did not tear. Work hardening of the
    aluminum skin from H.F. vibration combined with the
    additional stress of higher altitudes and higher speeds
    resulted in failures, often starting in corners, that
    obviously were not expected from causes that were little
    understood. Failure was occurring not only in sheet metal
    but also in castings and machined aluminum parts.

    Good thing those intelligent engineers figured it out
    and fixed it or we might not even have an airline
    industry today.

    Jack

  6. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I work on aircraft and deal with aluminum alloys daily,
    specifically


    2024

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and 6061. The biggest problem with aluminum is that it
    work hardens.


    Steel

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    can be loaded an almost infinite number of times just so
    long as you


    never

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    go past it's point of failure....

    Don't you mean fatigue limit, and not failure?

    Failure is an ambiguous term in this context - does it
    refer to yield, exceeding UTS, or fracture (all of which
    will occur at different strain values for most steels
    under most conditions)?

    Correct, that's why I didn't specify which "failure". The
    lowest "failure" point for most shapes and profiles would
    usually be bending, I would guess, but steel doesn't
    necessarily "fatigue" - at least the mild steel and
    stainless alloys I regularly use.

  7. "Jack Davis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Anyone but me remember when the new jet, (straight and
    turbo) airliners


    were

    Quoted message said:

    falling out of the sky from metal failure?

    Yup. I remember some fledgling airliners that put their
    companies in a bad light because the fuselages were
    expanding and contracting so much from pressure changes that
    they ended up have explosive failures in the outer skins due
    to the aluminum work hardening.

  8. "Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Jack Davis said:

    Actually Tom, I believe it was from high frequency
    vibration not p/d cycles, but that should not be a
    problem on bicycles either unless one is pedaling very
    rapidly.

    If one is referring to the failure which caused numerous
    Comet aircraft to crash in the 1950's, these were fatigue
    failures propagating from the corners of the windows
    (which had fairly sharp corners - bad idea) and /were/ due
    to p/d cycles.

    --

    Yup, interesting show about it on the History Channel a few
    months ago

  9. "Tim Hall" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Sherman said:
    Jack Davis said:

    Anyone but me remember when the new jet, (straight and
    turbo) airliners


    were

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    falling out of the sky from metal failure?

    For some reason I suspect that fatigue from
    pressurization/depressurization cycles is not a factor in
    aluminium alloy recumbent bicycles.


    Proof (again) that recumbents can't climb.

    (Runs away very fast)

    No need for doing that - just a few steps up the hill, and
    the recumbeteers will never catch you ;-)

    T

  10. Torben Scheel said:

    No need for doing that - just a few steps up the hill, and
    the recumbeteers will never catch you ;-)

    Until it's time to go down the other side... But have a look
    at the video clip of the Lightning R84 in action on their
    web site if you want to eat your words slightly more
    directly, or note that the Classique Genevoise course is
    80km of an unflat variety, and the first 5 places were taken
    by 'bents last year despite starting from the back...

    If recumbents "can't climb" then it could reasonably be said
    that uprights "can't do headwinds"...

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
    33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
    Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
    dundee.ac.uk~pjclinch

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