NYCMers who cramped

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kpqkd.2021$Bj2.261@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

Not that being low on salts is the only reason for cramping, but why

didn't

Quoted message said:

you guys take your Succeed or Lava salts?

Because I consumed 3 E-gels a power gel and several cups of Gatorade during
the during the race and 24 oz of E-fuel before the race.
That's probably the equivalent of 4 Succeeed capsules.
It didn't help.

Quoted message said:

It's not just ultra runners who
need them. It took some convincing, but I've become a believer after
reading this group for a while. Salt tabs help the stomach empty, make

you

Quoted message said:

more thirsty I suspect, and sports drinks just don't have enough. I'm
convinced that keeping the body salts in balance helps in recovery also.

Even on my rather slow 3 hr+ training run Sunday I took 4 succeed caps.

As

Quoted message said:

they help your stomach empty, you will drink more, etc. Sure it was warm
Sunday, but calling 70 degrees hot is a bit over the top isn't it?

Not at all, it's well known that performance suffers once the temperature
exceeds 60 for most. It's an individual matter also, heat effects some much
more severely than others.

Quoted message said:

-Tony

Sure it was warm
Sunday, but calling 70 degrees hot is a bit over the top isn't it?
-Tony
___
can't recall where i read it, perhaps someone else can source this bit of
runner's wisdom but the rule of thumb in dressing for running is to do so
whilst keeping in mind it will feel to your body/senses that it's 20 degrees
warmer than it actually is.

i dont' know how true this holds, ymmv. also note it's also an issue of having
sunrays beating down on you for 3 constant hours, eye squinting, etc. and so
forth...that's contributes to fatigue.

the more body mass you have, the more vulnerable you're going to be to warmer
weather. the '03 nyc marathon was held in this same exact weather, bright sun
and 70 degrees. as i recall the elite mens winner was 2 minutes off the
previous year's winning time and he directly said it was due to the "warm
weather". women with their smaller body masses were not so affected in this
manner. donovan and i discussed this aspect of the race last year on this
ng....the 70 degree weather.

i did not cramp, but i also spread out consumption of e-gel before & during the
race on sunday...which for me supports my Na needs. i ran this race in '03 in
the same weather and this year i opted to wear a runner's cap during the entire
race to combat eye squint fatigue and simply keep that sun off my eyes. it
worked well for me and i will always be wearing a runners cap in any weather to
keep sun rays from beatind down on my eyes.

i don't think you can dismiss 70 degree weather and marathoning as i can show
you lots of quotes from lots of world class elite superstars who characterize
racing in 70 degree weather are "tough". thank god i was injured last spring
and missed the boston bake-fest.

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kpqkd.2021$Bj2.261@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

Sure it was warm
Sunday, but calling 70 degrees hot is a bit over the top isn't it?

I think that there's a fair difference between what you'd call "hot" for a
training run and what you'd call "hot" for a race. Although in absolute
terms 70F might not be that hot, I'd rather not race in it for a long time.

Tim

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Globaldisc) said:

i don't think you can dismiss 70 degree weather and marathoning as i can show
you lots of quotes from lots of world class elite superstars who characterize
racing in 70 degree weather are "tough". thank god i was injured last spring
and missed the boston bake-fest.

If you think running a Marathon when it's 70 is hard, try doing an
Ironman when it's 90 and humid :-)

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Tony said:

Not that being low on salts is the only reason for cramping, but why didn't
you guys take your Succeed or Lava salts? It's not just ultra runners who
need them. It took some convincing, but I've become a believer after
reading this group for a while. Salt tabs help the stomach empty, make you
more thirsty I suspect, and sports drinks just don't have enough. I'm
convinced that keeping the body salts in balance helps in recovery also.

Even on my rather slow 3 hr+ training run Sunday I took 4 succeed caps. As
they help your stomach empty, you will drink more, etc. Sure it was warm
Sunday, but calling 70 degrees hot is a bit over the top isn't it?

I didn't cramp during the race, so you'll have to ask someone who did.

I wasn't expecting it to be that warm -- I went in expecting a top of 62 and
hoping that it wouldn't hit 60 until I was almost finished.

Regarding recovery, I drank a lot of gatorade at the finish line. I completed
a 4 mile "tempo run" (a slow tempo run) at about a 6:40 pace last night. I
felt terrible just after the race, but have bounced back in a fairly timely
manner.

Regarding temperature, if you think 70 degrees is cool, try racing a marathon
in those conditions, if you haven't done so already. As Tim pointed out, it's
just fine for a training run. But as intensity increases, and as distance
increases, it rapidly gets worse. 70 degrees is pretty nasty even for a half
marathon.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Harold Buck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Globaldisc) said:

i don't think you can dismiss 70 degree weather and marathoning as i can show
you lots of quotes from lots of world class elite superstars who characterize
racing in 70 degree weather are "tough". thank god i was injured last spring
and missed the boston bake-fest.

If you think running a Marathon when it's 70 is hard, try doing an
Ironman when it's 90 and humid :-)

I know a bunch of people who ran Boston (85). At that point, I think it becomes
more about survival than speed -- basically, if you don't blow up
catastrophically, you're doing well. I think if I had to face that sort of
heat, I'd run the first 20 as if it were a long training run, and try to hang
on for the last 10k.

But 70 is already pretty hard. The difficulty with these conditions is getting
the right balance between pushing the pace and avoiding a blowup. You can still
push the pace at 70 degrees (whereas you can't at 90), but overdo it and your
butt is going to get kicked really hard.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

I didn't cramp during the race, so you'll have to ask someone who did.
___

well donnie...tony can always ask deena kastor. can you imagine asking this
question in the same way to someone like her?

She DNF'ed at mile 16 due to extensive cramps in her legs. Methinks she knows
a thing or two about running and preparation, etc.

the point? regardless of knowledge, experience, training, or caliber of
runner... on any given race day, even running gods and goddesses are prone to
the same thing us regular people are prone to. we're all just people.

Globaldisc said:

She DNF'ed at mile 16 due to extensive cramps in her legs. Methinks she
knows a thing or two about running and preparation, etc.

the point? regardless of knowledge, experience, training, or caliber of
runner... on any given race day, even running gods and goddesses are prone to
the same thing us regular people are prone to. we're all just people.

Yep. One thing I noticed is that a lot of runners who are a lot better than
me had terrible days. You can't take anything for granted under those
conditions. I sure as hell wasn't taking the sub 3 for granted in those last
3 miles.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kpqkd.2021$Bj2.261@trndny01...
<snip>
Sorry, looks like it's a landslide against your notion that 70 isn't hot for
a Marathon :>😉

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Globaldisc) said:

well donnie...tony can always ask deena kastor. can you imagine asking this
question in the same way to someone like her?

She DNF'ed at mile 16 due to extensive cramps in her legs. Methinks she knows
a thing or two about running and preparation, etc.

the point? regardless of knowledge, experience, training, or caliber of
runner... on any given race day, even running gods and goddesses are prone to
the same thing us regular people are prone to. we're all just people.

Didn't she just run a very hard Marathon about 2 months before? Couldn't
that contribute to having problems during the race. Eh, maybe that was
someone else. :-)

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Quoted message said:

But 70 is already pretty hard. The difficulty with these conditions is
getting
the right balance between pushing the pace and avoiding a blowup. You can
still
push the pace at 70 degrees (whereas you can't at 90), but overdo it and your
butt is going to get kicked really hard.

I see your point. I find 70 uncomfortable at anything over a jog.

Parker Race said:

Sorry, looks like it's a landslide against your notion that 70 isn't hot for
a Marathon :>😉

Nah, we were just being nice so you guys wouldn't feel like wimps. <g>

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

"Mike Tennent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Parker Race said:

Sorry, looks like it's a landslide against your notion that 70 isn't hot

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a Marathon :>😉

Nah, we were just being nice so you guys wouldn't feel like wimps. <g>

I'd agree if I weighed 140 and had 8% body fat, but I did survive Boston
last year. It's an individual thing, I think 60 is warm!
Are you from a warmer part of the country?

Quoted message said:

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Yep. One thing I noticed is that a lot of runners who are a lot better than
me had terrible days.

And that doesn't surprise me. It's a pattern I've seen at Ironmans
and obviously applies to marathons, too.

Some good age groupers will go out and hammer to achieve a specific
goal regardless of conditions, rather than adjust their goal to meet
existing conditions. It usually spells disaster.

65 - 70 degrees isn't bad, if you make the necessary adjustments.

From reading your pre and post race discussions, I think your goal was
loose enough that you didn't feel pressured to hammer a pace that got
you into trouble. You could go with what felt right rather than what
your watch said you "had" to run.

Others may have been better runners than you, but you ran a smarter
race.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Parker Race said:

Not at all, it's well known that performance suffers once the temperature
exceeds 60 for most.

Is that true whatever the usual climate of the person?

60°F is about the average daylight temperature, over the whole year, in
the region I live in. October average high is 66°F and that's when I did
a pb marathon.

Could I hit 2:45 if I moved to Helsinki, with an av. October high of 46?

Globaldisc wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Sure it was warm
Sunday, but calling 70 degrees hot is a bit over the top isn't it?
snip<
i don't think you can dismiss 70 degree weather and marathoning as i can

show

Quoted message said:

you lots of quotes from lots of world class elite superstars who

characterize

Quoted message said:

racing in 70 degree weather are "tough". thank god i was injured last

spring

Quoted message said:

and missed the boston bake-fest.

In no way was I dismissing it, however I also don't think it can be called
hot. Of course it wasn't ideal for a marathon or any long race. I know
many others in this group have run races where the temps have gone into the
80's and higher; that is hot.

-Tony

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Not that being low on salts is the only reason for cramping, but why

didn't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you guys take your Succeed or Lava salts? It's not just ultra runners

who

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

need them. It took some convincing, but I've become a believer after
reading this group for a while. Salt tabs help the stomach empty, make

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more thirsty I suspect, and sports drinks just don't have enough. I'm
convinced that keeping the body salts in balance helps in recovery also.

Even on my rather slow 3 hr+ training run Sunday I took 4 succeed caps.

As

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they help your stomach empty, you will drink more, etc. Sure it was warm
Sunday, but calling 70 degrees hot is a bit over the top isn't it?

I didn't cramp during the race, so you'll have to ask someone who did.

I was commenting generally from several of the reports.

Quoted message said:

I wasn't expecting it to be that warm -- I went in expecting a top of 62

and

Quoted message said:

hoping that it wouldn't hit 60 until I was almost finished.

Regarding recovery, I drank a lot of gatorade at the finish line. I

completed

Quoted message said:

a 4 mile "tempo run" (a slow tempo run) at about a 6:40 pace last night. I
felt terrible just after the race, but have bounced back in a fairly timely
manner.

I'm just suggesting that marathoners might need a similar salt intake per
hour as ultra runners, hardly a radical thought. Though at 3 hours you can
get away without it, if it helps the body absorb fluid on a warm day then
why not?

Quoted message said:

Regarding temperature, if you think 70 degrees is cool, try racing a

marathon

Quoted message said:

in those conditions, if you haven't done so already. As Tim pointed out,

it's

Quoted message said:

just fine for a training run. But as intensity increases, and as distance
increases, it rapidly gets worse. 70 degrees is pretty nasty even for a

half

Quoted message said:

marathon.

I said it was warm, as I experienced during my own training run later in the
day. In my 50k in Sept, the temp for the last few hours moved through the
70's into the mid 80's. That was getting hot, but I've run in races far
hotter than that. I'm not suggesting 60's to about 70 is ideal by any
means.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Mike Tennent said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Yep. One thing I noticed is that a lot of runners who are a lot better than
me had terrible days.

And that doesn't surprise me. It's a pattern I've seen at Ironmans
and obviously applies to marathons, too.

Some good age groupers will go out and hammer to achieve a specific
goal regardless of conditions, rather than adjust their goal to meet
existing conditions. It usually spells disaster.

Crashing and burning in this race had very little to do with going out
hard. A lot of people went out carefully but crashed, but most of the
runners on my team who ran fast times went out very hard.

Quoted message said:

Others may have been better runners than you, but you ran a smarter
race.

You'd think this is what happened, but it isn't.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote

Quoted message said:

It took some convincing, but I've become a believer after
reading this group for a while. Salt tabs help the stomach empty, make

you

Quoted message said:

more thirsty I suspect, and sports drinks just don't have enough. I'm
convinced that keeping the body salts in balance helps in recovery also.

Yeah, salt stimulates the thirst and empties the stomach when you run low
(after you've sweated out a pint or two).

Quoted message said:

my rather slow 3 hr+ training run Sunday I took 4 succeed caps. As
they help your stomach empty, you will drink more, etc. Sure it was warm
Sunday, but calling 70 degrees hot is a bit over the top isn't it?

Depends on the humidity, hydration, and BMI, see below...

There are two things going on here:

1. Cramping -- usually caused by severe dehydration (eg, a 155 lb guy
losing 5 lbs or more). Cure: drink *alot* (tough to do in a rushed
marathon situation). Such as a 20 oz squeeze bottle every half hour -- cups
are impossible to drink from efficiently at speed, for me anyway. Take salt
to replace what's lost and to stimulate thirst & stomach draining. I need
to drink 40 oz/hour in mild weather (70-75 degrees) when racing.

2. Overheating -- major factors:
a. dehydration. Sweat rate decreases when you're out of h2o, and you
eventually reach a point where you make more heat than you dissipate. At
this point you've gotta slow down, or overheat (which will force you to slow
down). Sweat is a very efficient cooling mechanism if the humidity is low.
b. Heat. I can run pretty hard at 80 degrees -- only a % or two off max --
*if* I'm fully hydrated and sweating freely (but see humidity, below).
c. Humidity. If humidity is high, you sweat just fine, but the water drips
off and doesn't evaporate. I've found this situation hopeless, and have
overheated badly at 70 degrees on an overcast day running a 10k. (While 80+
degrees in the dry desert or at altitude feels fine).
d. Body Mass Index: Mine is now about 21, which means that I've got a
pretty good surface area to mass ratio. The higher the BMI, the less
efficient your cooling mechanisms will be, and you're going to have a
tougher time.
e. Gender: women have an additional heat dissipation mechanism--flushing
blood to their skin. They have more capillaries in their skin then menfolk,
so their skin can radiate a bit more heat. Women probably have an edge when
it gets very hot. (note the gal who won the Badwater 135 miler).

-- Dan