UK and Europe · Public discussion

Not as bad as I feared

Started by David Martin · · Last activity · 22 posts · 789 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
UK and Europe
Published
24 October 2006
Last activity
28 October 2006
Original author
David Martin
Posts
22
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
789
Views / 30 days
8

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 22
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Short update to my previous concerns:

    met with senior RSO and RSO line manager (Sgt.)

    1. They expressed surprise at 30cm and stated the party line is 60-90.
    Training of the RSO will be reviewed.

    2. Helmets should be proper bike helmets or no ride. DHT worried about
    social exclusion. I will donate a spare helmet or two to the school to
    alleviate that.

    3. Insurance and the nature of the training are still unresolved. As
    long as I am covered I will endeavour to take part.

    I want to meet with the DHT and the other trainers to thrash out what
    we will be teaching, when and how.
    (ie, I want to do the first session or two in the playground so they
    can do the balance, signal, look behind etc stop exercises
    appropriately. I have Go-ride cards and the Cycling Scotland manual on
    loan (thanks Pete C!) which will be really good to get them sorted and
    happy before heading onto the road.

    ...d

  2. On 24 Oct 2006 06:49:03 -0700 someone who may be "David Martin"
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    2. Helmets should be proper bike helmets or no ride. DHT worried about
    social exclusion. I will donate a spare helmet or two to the school to
    alleviate that.

    No need to do that. Simply abolish the helmet "requirement" and
    anyone can ride no matter what their means. Easy peasy.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

  3. David Hansen said:

    On 24 Oct 2006 06:49:03 -0700 someone who may be "David Martin"
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    2. Helmets should be proper bike helmets or no ride. DHT worried about
    social exclusion. I will donate a spare helmet or two to the school to
    alleviate that.

    No need to do that. Simply abolish the helmet "requirement" and
    anyone can ride no matter what their means. Easy peasy.

    *I* know that. It wasn't a battle I chose to fight today. Today was
    more about principles and making it possible to participate.

    When I run the cycle training [fx: manic laugh] then policies may well
    be different. Until then I will be subversive from within.

    ...d

  4. David Martin said:


    David Hansen said:

    On 24 Oct 2006 06:49:03 -0700 someone who may be "David Martin"
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    2. Helmets should be proper bike helmets or no ride. DHT worried about
    social exclusion. I will donate a spare helmet or two to the school to
    alleviate that.

    No need to do that. Simply abolish the helmet "requirement" and
    anyone can ride no matter what their means. Easy peasy.

    *I* know that. It wasn't a battle I chose to fight today. Today was
    more about principles and making it possible to participate.

    When I run the cycle training [fx: manic laugh] then policies may well
    be different. Until then I will be subversive from within.

    That's the way to go. I'm still hopeful that my school governors will
    change their minds about mandatory helmets while children are
    training. Helmets should be worn as a result of an informed choice
    between parent and child, and not simply to access cycle training,
    though for complete novices in the playground I do think that helmets
    are a good idea as there is an increased risk of a low speed fall onto
    a flat surface.

  5. Tom Crispin wrote on 27/10/2006 09:26 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    That's the way to go. I'm still hopeful that my school governors will
    change their minds about mandatory helmets while children are
    training.

    Circulate them Ian Walker's research from Bath that was widely reported
    on the BBC etc. The thought that they could be blamed for an accident
    to a cyclist they have forced to be helmeted might make them rethink
    rather quickly.

    "If a car cuts too close to a child and knocks them off their bike how
    will you deal with the parent who says it only happened because the
    school forced them to wear a helmet and it is well known drivers drive
    closer to helmeted cyclists? If we make it informed parent choice it's
    their decision and they can't blame you for it"

    Change management is all about making where you want them to be appear
    more attractive than where they are now and is usually most effective if
    you can show where they are now is not actually as comfortable as they
    thought it was.

    --
    Tony

    "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
    his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
    - Leonardo da Vinci

  6. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's the way to go. I'm still hopeful that my school governors will
    change their minds about mandatory helmets while children are
    training.

    Circulate them Ian Walker's research from Bath that was widely reported
    on the BBC etc. <snippity>

    As Tom is the expert at the school, I thought just wait until he re-does
    the risk assessment, then he can recommend helmets be used for complete
    novices on the playground. I presume he's got a stock of helmets for those
    that want/need them.

    Risk assessment gets accepted by Governors. Mandatory helmets gone.

    Not sure if it can work like that thobut if they're reasonable people,
    they'll listen to what their expert is saying and follow his advice. Guess
    they've ignored it once already tho.

  7. Mark Thompson said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's the way to go. I'm still hopeful that my school governors will
    change their minds about mandatory helmets while children are
    training.

    Circulate them Ian Walker's research from Bath that was widely reported
    on the BBC etc. <snippity>

    As Tom is the expert at the school, I thought just wait until he re-does
    the risk assessment, then he can recommend helmets be used for complete
    novices on the playground. I presume he's got a stock of helmets for those
    that want/need them.

    Risk assessment gets accepted by Governors. Mandatory helmets gone.

    Not sure if it can work like that thobut if they're reasonable people,
    they'll listen to what their expert is saying and follow his advice. Guess
    they've ignored it once already tho.

    I am in two minds over the issue of making them wear helmets. My RA
    would go something like (quick OTTOMH):

    1. there is a very low risk of an accident when riding a bike. Novice
    cyclists are more likely to have a single vehicle accident.

    2. Single vehicle accidents rarely provide serious injuries and are
    approximately as hazardous as free play in a playground. Serious
    accidents are in the vast majority of cases caused by motor vehicles.

    3. Helmets provide marginal benefit in accidents involving other
    vehicles.

    4. Activities should be structured to avoid conflict between cyclists.
    Activities where a cyclists balance may be compromised should be
    performed in a safe environment.

    5. Mandating helmets may lead to social exclusion for those who do not
    have one or who cannot wear one for religious reasons.

    6. Helmets should be encouraged but not mandated for school activities,
    with children being explicitly told that they will only protect against
    minor injuries. For certain activities, it would be prudent to mandate
    helmets, eg skills trials,racing and mountain biking.

    ...d

    (just off to the school for the first session. Not heard anything about
    lesson plans so I have snarfed some Go-Ride/Cycling Scotland stuff that
    works on the basic balance and actions (signal, stopping, going, bike
    control, looking behind) and got a lesson outline up my sleeve. Need to
    get some cones etc from the school so I will be there a bit early.

    ...d

  8. David Martin said:

    I am in two minds over the issue of making them wear helmets. My RA
    would go something like (quick OTTOMH):

    1. there is a very low risk of an accident when riding a bike. Novice
    cyclists are more likely to have a single vehicle accident.

    And don't forget that only a subset of such accidents involve the head
    getting struck, and only a subset of those involve part of the head
    protected by a helmet.

    That kids have been doing this sort of training for decades before cycle
    helmets were available (and brakes and tyres were generally worse) and
    there was no particular issue of head injuries being a constant problem
    AFAICT is a pretty good indication that it's okay without them.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  9. David Martin wrote on 27/10/2006 13:57 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    I am in two minds over the issue of making them wear helmets. My RA
    would go something like (quick OTTOMH):

    The trouble is you are just providing what is known as disconfirming
    information which tends to increase, rather than decrease,
    rationalisation of the status quo. See the seminal work of Kurt Lewin
    on this and cognitive dissonance. There is a well known example of a
    UFO cult whose leader had predicted alien destruction of the planet.
    When the date passed the members convinced themselves that because of
    the cult, the aliens had spared the planet rather than accept that their
    beliefs had been wrong and the leader they'd trusted a fraud.

    --
    Tony

    "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
    his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
    - Leonardo da Vinci

  10. David Martin said:


    Mark Thompson said:
    Quoted message said:

    > That's the way to go. I'm still hopeful that my school governors will
    > change their minds about mandatory helmets while children are
    > training.

    Circulate them Ian Walker's research from Bath that was widely reported
    on the BBC etc. <snippity>

    As Tom is the expert at the school, I thought just wait until he re-does
    the risk assessment, then he can recommend helmets be used for complete
    novices on the playground. I presume he's got a stock of helmets for those
    that want/need them.

    Risk assessment gets accepted by Governors. Mandatory helmets gone.

    Not sure if it can work like that thobut if they're reasonable people,
    they'll listen to what their expert is saying and follow his advice. Guess
    they've ignored it once already tho.

    I am in two minds over the issue of making them wear helmets. My RA
    would go something like (quick OTTOMH):

    1. there is a very low risk of an accident when riding a bike. Novice
    cyclists are more likely to have a single vehicle accident.

    2. Single vehicle accidents rarely provide serious injuries and are
    approximately as hazardous as free play in a playground. Serious
    accidents are in the vast majority of cases caused by motor vehicles.

    In a two hour lesson with 15 novice cyclists I would expect two
    children to have an accident causing trivial injury requiring nothing
    more than a wash and a short break from training. This makes novice
    cycle training approximately four times more hazardous than a games
    lesson when I would expect a trivial injury once every two hour long
    lessons with a class of 30 children.

    I can recall only one slight injury in teaching about 8400 games
    hours* and two slight injuries in teaching about 2400 cycling hours*.
    In all cases the injuries needed minor first aid. This tiny sample
    suggests cycle training to be approximately 3.5 times more dangerous
    than a games lesson.

    *estimated by myltiplying number of lessons by length in hours by
    number of pupils.

    Quoted message said:

    3. Helmets provide marginal benefit in accidents involving other
    vehicles.

    4. Activities should be structured to avoid conflict between cyclists.
    Activities where a cyclists balance may be compromised should be
    performed in a safe environment.

    I often play dodge with children as part of their Level 1 training as
    it's an excellent way to learn close control. Children cycle within a
    defined area, if their front wheel touches another bike, or put a foot
    down for balance, or leave the area, they are out of the game. The
    defined area becomes smaller and smaller until one child is left the
    winner. With this game conflicts between cyclists is inevitable, but
    speed is low and I've never experienced anything worse than a low
    speed collision.

    Quoted message said:

    5. Mandating helmets may lead to social exclusion for those who do not
    have one or who cannot wear one for religious reasons.

    I'm sure the school's PTA would be happy to buy a small supply of
    helmets, and any formal or informal policy on mandatory helmets should
    allow for exceptions for cultural reasons.

    Quoted message said:

    6. Helmets should be encouraged but not mandated for school activities,
    with children being explicitly told that they will only protect against
    minor injuries. For certain activities, it would be prudent to mandate
    helmets, eg skills trials,racing and mountain biking.

    That's a sensible line to take.

    Quoted message said:

    (just off to the school for the first session. Not heard anything about
    lesson plans so I have snarfed some Go-Ride/Cycling Scotland stuff that
    works on the basic balance and actions (signal, stopping, going, bike
    control, looking behind) and got a lesson outline up my sleeve. Need to
    get some cones etc from the school so I will be there a bit early.

    I hope it all went well and you enjoyed the teaching as much as the
    children enjoyed the learning.

  11. Tony Raven said:

    Tom Crispin wrote on 27/10/2006 09:26 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    That's the way to go. I'm still hopeful that my school governors will
    change their minds about mandatory helmets while children are
    training.

    Circulate them Ian Walker's research from Bath that was widely reported
    on the BBC etc. The thought that they could be blamed for an accident
    to a cyclist they have forced to be helmeted might make them rethink
    rather quickly.

    I'm not sure that Ian Walker's research would be totally applicable.
    his research involved adult cyclists (well an adult cyclist actually -
    himself). His research also showed that motorists gave more room to
    female cyclists (a bewigged Ian Walker). It may well be that they also
    give even more room to children (especially small children) for similar
    reasons.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
    "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

  12. Tom Crispin said:

    I'm sure the school's PTA would be happy to buy a small supply of
    helmets, and any formal or informal policy on mandatory helmets should
    allow for exceptions for cultural reasons.

    Seeing as I coopted myself onto the PTA, they are buying hi-vis tabards
    for the school. The school now has a donated helmet. None of the kids
    needed one. One chap should ideally get a new, bigger one but it was
    fine at the moment. Most of the helmets were very badly adjusted. at
    least three (of nine) I could easily move to be hanging down the childs
    back without causing any discomfort in the process. This was after it
    had been tightened under the chin.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    6. Helmets should be encouraged but not mandated for school activities,
    with children being explicitly told that they will only protect against
    minor injuries. For certain activities, it would be prudent to mandate
    helmets, eg skills trials,racing and mountain biking.

    That's a sensible line to take.

    Quoted message said:

    (just off to the school for the first session. Not heard anything about
    lesson plans so I have snarfed some Go-Ride/Cycling Scotland stuff that
    works on the basic balance and actions (signal, stopping, going, bike
    control, looking behind) and got a lesson outline up my sleeve. Need to
    get some cones etc from the school so I will be there a bit early.

    I hope it all went well and you enjoyed the teaching as much as the
    children enjoyed the learning.

    We got enough cones. Checked the bikes. One lad turned up on his other
    bike and was told that in future weeks he wouldn't be riding if he
    brought that one (badly adjusted back brake. No front brake).

    After the faffing with helmets and bike checks we got them to ride
    round the coned square. Mostly to check balance. Introduced a
    'lifesaver when ever you change direction/start/stop' . Then we did the
    looking behind thing. pretty much all have good balance.

    Brakes were next. Emergency stop on a whistle blow. First with back
    brake only. second with front only (having been told to be careful),
    and finally using both. A small number of the kids have a hand strength
    issue with being able to stop rapidly. They were all encouraged to
    practice.

    We then did a 'left hand/right hand' - ride round the square and as the
    instructor shouts 'left hand' or right hand, they take that hand off
    and dangle it. Gave us a chance to assess their control with one hand.

    Then do a full signal. Left on one side, both hands and a look behind
    on the short sides, then right (signals held for the full 15-20m of the
    side) .

    Finish off with a slow bike race.

    Generally good. The other parent is an experienced cyclist.

    Next week we will be runing through the full gamut of maneuvers in the
    playground. We will also hopefully get together with the DHT and a
    suitable camera to video the maneuvers being demonstrated at the
    training locations.

    Generally went well. Would have been a bit of a shambles had I not had
    a lesson plan sorted out beforehand.

    ...d

  13. Andy Leighton wrote on 27/10/2006 15:47 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    I'm not sure that Ian Walker's research would be totally applicable.
    his research involved adult cyclists (well an adult cyclist actually -
    himself). His research also showed that motorists gave more room to
    female cyclists (a bewigged Ian Walker). It may well be that they also
    give even more room to children (especially small children) for similar
    reasons.

    True the data is limited but the only data of interest is the helmeted
    vs unhelmeted, unless you are suggesting mandatory surgery for all the boys.

    --
    Tony

    "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
    his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
    - Leonardo da Vinci

  14. David Martin said:

    After the faffing with helmets and bike checks

    A bike check is genuinely useful knowledge and should be part of the
    learning process rather than "a faff", even if it feels a bit like one.

    Faffing with helmets, OTOH, is just another reason they're not worth it:
    they could actually be learning and practising Useful Stuff instead of
    pratting about with something of no real proven worth, especially when
    many can't be properly adjusted in the first place.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  15. Tony Raven said:

    Andy Leighton wrote on 27/10/2006 15:47 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    I'm not sure that Ian Walker's research would be totally applicable.
    his research involved adult cyclists (well an adult cyclist actually -
    himself). His research also showed that motorists gave more room to
    female cyclists (a bewigged Ian Walker). It may well be that they also
    give even more room to children (especially small children) for similar
    reasons.

    True the data is limited but the only data of interest is the helmeted
    vs unhelmeted, unless you are suggesting mandatory surgery for all the boys.

    No I was suggesting that drivers may give more space to young children
    than adults. Also the "helmet effect" may be lower or non-existant in
    the case of young children. Walker's research has nothing to say on
    this but IME a number of drivers do drive more slowly and more carefully
    around a young child cyclist than an adult one.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
    "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

  16. On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:07:48 +0100 someone who may be Tom Crispin
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    and any formal or informal policy on mandatory helmets should
    allow for exceptions for cultural reasons.

    Only if one is in a "minority". Otherwise the politically correct
    teachers and the like don't give two hoots about cultural reasons.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

  17. Andy Leighton wrote on 27/10/2006 16:56 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    No I was suggesting that drivers may give more space to young children
    than adults. Also the "helmet effect" may be lower or non-existant in
    the case of young children. Walker's research has nothing to say on
    this but IME a number of drivers do drive more slowly and more carefully
    around a young child cyclist than an adult one.

    But in the absence of the child data - and its not going to be easy to
    get for children with Ian having been knocked off twice gathering it for
    adults - the best assumption on current data is that motorists will give
    helmeted children less room than unhelmeted children.

    --
    Tony

    "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
    his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
    - Leonardo da Vinci

  18. Peter Clinch said:
    David Martin said:

    After the faffing with helmets and bike checks

    A bike check is genuinely useful knowledge and should be part of the
    learning process rather than "a faff", even if it feels a bit like one.

    Faffing with helmets, OTOH, is just another reason they're not worth it:
    they could actually be learning and practising Useful Stuff instead of
    pratting about with something of no real proven worth, especially when
    many can't be properly adjusted in the first place.

    I agree. It wasn't a battle I was prepared to fight though. Enough to
    be getting stuff done properly.
    The other parent is a regular traffic cyclist who made all the right
    sort of noises. One of her kids was being trained (clearly the most
    competent bike handler there.

    ...d

  19. David Martin said:


    Tom Crispin said:

    I'm sure the school's PTA would be happy to buy a small supply of
    helmets, and any formal or informal policy on mandatory helmets should
    allow for exceptions for cultural reasons.

    Seeing as I coopted myself onto the PTA, they are buying hi-vis tabards
    for the school.

    http://tinyurl.com/y4xqs5 from
    http://www.tgsindustrial.co.uk/productdetail.aspx?prodid=2630&prodgroupid=378
    Is the cheapest I know, when you take account of postage and packing
    costs. The quality is fine. I've had some for two years and they
    show no sign of wear.

    Quoted message said:

    The school now has a donated helmet. None of the kids
    needed one. One chap should ideally get a new, bigger one but it was
    fine at the moment. Most of the helmets were very badly adjusted. at
    least three (of nine) I could easily move to be hanging down the childs
    back without causing any discomfort in the process. This was after it
    had been tightened under the chin.

    Adjusting them will be quicker next time.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    6. Helmets should be encouraged but not mandated for school activities,
    with children being explicitly told that they will only protect against
    minor injuries. For certain activities, it would be prudent to mandate
    helmets, eg skills trials,racing and mountain biking.

    That's a sensible line to take.

    Quoted message said:

    (just off to the school for the first session. Not heard anything about
    lesson plans so I have snarfed some Go-Ride/Cycling Scotland stuff that
    works on the basic balance and actions (signal, stopping, going, bike
    control, looking behind) and got a lesson outline up my sleeve. Need to
    get some cones etc from the school so I will be there a bit early.

    I hope it all went well and you enjoyed the teaching as much as the
    children enjoyed the learning.

    We got enough cones. Checked the bikes. One lad turned up on his other
    bike and was told that in future weeks he wouldn't be riding if he
    brought that one (badly adjusted back brake. No front brake).

    After the faffing with helmets and bike checks we got them to ride
    round the coned square. Mostly to check balance. Introduced a
    'lifesaver when ever you change direction/start/stop' . Then we did the
    looking behind thing. pretty much all have good balance.

    Brakes were next. Emergency stop on a whistle blow. First with back
    brake only. second with front only (having been told to be careful),
    and finally using both. A small number of the kids have a hand strength
    issue with being able to stop rapidly. They were all encouraged to
    practice.

    We then did a 'left hand/right hand' - ride round the square and as the
    instructor shouts 'left hand' or right hand, they take that hand off
    and dangle it. Gave us a chance to assess their control with one hand.

    Then do a full signal. Left on one side, both hands and a look behind
    on the short sides, then right (signals held for the full 15-20m of the
    side) .

    Finish off with a slow bike race.

    Generally good. The other parent is an experienced cyclist.

    Next week we will be runing through the full gamut of maneuvers in the
    playground. We will also hopefully get together with the DHT and a
    suitable camera to video the maneuvers being demonstrated at the
    training locations.

    Generally went well. Would have been a bit of a shambles had I not had
    a lesson plan sorted out beforehand.

    It sounds great. It always helps to have a lesson well planned.

  20. In article <[email hidden]>

    Tony Raven said:

    Andy Leighton wrote on 27/10/2006 16:56 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    No I was suggesting that drivers may give more space to young children
    than adults. Also the "helmet effect" may be lower or non-existant in
    the case of young children. Walker's research has nothing to say on
    this but IME a number of drivers do drive more slowly and more carefully
    around a young child cyclist than an adult one.

    But in the absence of the child data - and its not going to be easy to
    get for children with Ian having been knocked off twice gathering it for
    adults - the best assumption on current data is that motorists will give
    helmeted children less room than unhelmeted children.


    So Mr. Walker needs to find a proportional midget cyclist/stunt
    person/cross-dresser to repeat the experiment. Simple.

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.